All things defense

[ThomasRoane]

A powerful running game is a defense's best friend.  Keeps the other offense off the field.  Allows the defense to gameplan and to stay fresh.  I like that we have the weapons to to compete in a shootout but right now this defense needs a good running game until they can find their stride.  The pieces are there (Gibson, blocking TE's, etc.) but ST has to commit to it.  That would also help the tackles on offense as well.  I wouldn't be surprised if RR forces Turner to run the ball more this week.  

Edited September 23, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[Idaho fan]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

A good defense everything being equal defeats bad offenses.  Story of the WFT 2020 season.

 

A good offense everything being equal defeats a good defense.  Likely the story of the WFT 2021 season.

 

Probably true.   Though at this point im not even convinced this defense beats all bad offenses anyway.  So mediocre defense, mediocre offense... feels familiar.

 

Bummer since this team has so much invested in this defense.  Oh well, we aren't used to winning games anyway.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, Idaho fan said:

 

Probably true.   Though at this point im not even convinced this defense beats all bad offenses anyway.  So mediocre defense, mediocre offense... feels familiar.

 

Bummer since this team has so much invested in this defense.  Oh well, we aren't used to winning games anyway.

 

I think the defense will snap out of it.  Too much talent.   But will see. 

[IrepDC]

I really like how Jack Del Rio has been handling the media in recent press conferences. As a long time fan of this team, I have seen how our local media loves to stir up dissension and drama, and here on ES, we know how we fans eat up the drama they feed us. JDR is having none of that in his press conferences.

 

He has been asked questions about our defense under achieving as a whole, Chase Young getting heat on social media, the LB group, and even questions about our gameplan for the upcoming week (our media attempting to get coaches to expose gameplans is one of the most asinine forms of sabotage); and he has been handling every question like I would want a coach to handle them.

 

JDR clearly understands that even when some of the criticism is deserved, it's important to correct your players in private and have their backs in public. That builds trust and respect in a locker room. That motivates players to play hard for you. That keeps players accountable to the coaching staff and not the rabid fanbase who drastically changes opinions from week to week. That is what we need.

 

I truly believe our defense is in great hands right now. FYI the #1 defense from last year has been off to a slow start as well. I'm willing to give Del Rio more time to get these guys on the same page and correct the mistakes that we've been seeing. We will have a tough road defensively regardless, with our schedule, but I'm optimistic after listening to how JDR is leading the bunch.

[Warhead36]

4 hours ago, IrepDC said:

I really like how Jack Del Rio has been handling the media in recent press conferences. As a long time fan of this team, I have seen how our local media loves to stir up dissension and drama, and here on ES, we know how we fans eat up the drama they feed us. JDR is having none of that in his press conferences.

 

He has been asked questions about our defense under achieving as a whole, Chase Young getting heat on social media, the LB group, and even questions about our gameplan for the upcoming week (our media attempting to get coaches to expose gameplans is one of the most asinine forms of sabotage); and he has been handling every question like I would want a coach to handle them.

 

JDR clearly understands that even when some of the criticism is deserved, it's important to correct your players in private and have their backs in public. That builds trust and respect in a locker room. That motivates players to play hard for you. That keeps players accountable to the coaching staff and not the rabid fanbase who drastically changes opinions from week to week. That is what we need.

 

I truly believe our defense is in great hands right now. FYI the #1 defense from last year has been off to a slow start as well. I'm willing to give Del Rio more time to get these guys on the same page and correct the mistakes that we've been seeing. We will have a tough road defensively regardless, with our schedule, but I'm optimistic after listening to how JDR is leading the bunch.

Del Rio is a fine coach. He'll never be an innovator or one of those super creative types, but he'll get us playing good defense at some point.

[owa]

The defense is hard to judge.  Like others have mentioned, the statistics are there making them seem good but watching the games I've always felt we were very overrated.  This year, more of the same...although...actually worse.  I would like to know where their (players and coaches) confidence comes from because watching the games doesn't give me any confidence.   They look completely inept and overmatched!  But, this has been the case for so many years despite players changing and coordinators changing so what is going on?  I don't believe in curses and I don't believe DS is to blame for everything so what is going on?  Seriously!  With so many first round picks on the front line how can we be so bad against under average offensive lines?  I just don't understand it.  I might tend to blame the calls / coaching but we've been through multiple coordinators...what the heck!?

[owa]

Okay, so reading Ron's comments about our guys just having to win the one on one match-ups makes me nervous.  That is exactly what we haven't been able to do for a while now.  If that is their philosophy, wowzer.  I know they watch the games so what is the deal?  We seem to consistently see that our guys don't win the one-on-one match-ups so why do they magically expect them to?  Rankings and where they were picked doesn't mean squat but you'd think they don't understand that (although I'm sure they do).  Anyway, at this point it feels like it is going to be a long season but really hoping they prove me wrong and soon.  I was pretty excited about this season but...

[Warhead36]

24 minutes ago, owa said:

Okay, so reading Ron's comments about our guys just having to win the one on one match-ups makes me nervous.  That is exactly what we haven't been able to do for a while now.  If that is their philosophy, wowzer.  I know they watch the games so what is the deal?  We seem to consistently see that our guys don't win the one-on-one match-ups so why do they magically expect them to?  Rankings and where they were picked doesn't mean squat but you'd think they don't understand that (although I'm sure they do).  Anyway, at this point it feels like it is going to be a long season but really hoping they prove me wrong and soon.  I was pretty excited about this season but...

Dang he's basically quoting me word for word regarding the 1 on 1 matchups lolol. But he's right. We invested too much in this D for guys to not be winning matchups and making some plays.

[skins island connection]

16 minutes ago, owa said:

Okay, so reading Ron's comments about our guys just having to win the one on one match-ups makes me nervous.  That is exactly what we haven't been able to do for a while now.  If that is their philosophy, wowzer.  I know they watch the games so what is the deal?  We seem to consistently see that our guys don't win the one-on-one match-ups so why do they magically expect them to?  Rankings and where they were picked doesn't mean squat but you'd think they don't understand that (although I'm sure they do).  Anyway, at this point it feels like it is going to be a long season but really hoping they prove me wrong and soon.  I was pretty excited about this season but...

 

 This defense makes alot of people nervous; nervous as a pregnant nun.

I don't have any concerns about the front, but the secondary will be the demise of the team and the season, unless things turn around in a hurry.  They cannot afford to go a half of the season before things begin to gel; there are too many NFC teams with promising futures, all looking to make the postseason.

 

Bills, Bucs, Cowboys and Eagles {twice} Chiefs, Seahawks, even the Packers all have offenses that can put points up in a hurry or have a mobile QB who can make things happen with their legs. The 'soft zone' 'read and react' secondary can't sit and wait til the WR catches the ball then tackle him, disruption of timing, confusing the QB and giving the front line a little more time to get to the QB is the key. I saw alot of 3rd & 6+ downs and the CBs are 10 yds away and positioned to run WITH the WR, and it gives me flashbacks to the good ol' Haslett years.

I think i'm gonna puke bringing up that tool's name.

 

[ThomasRoane]

10 hours ago, skins island connection said:

I saw alot of 3rd & 6+ downs and the CBs are 10 yds away and positioned to run WITH the WR, and it gives me flashbacks to the good ol' Haslett years.

 

 

You didn't like Joe Barry's quote about no rear view mirrors?  Little did we know, those mirrors wouldn't be needed because our defenders were still running behind the guy with the ball.  Or were they escorting them to the end zone?  

 

The third and long conversions irritate me the most.  Even under Gregg Williams we had that problem.  I remember the butt whipping we took with him from Brady and if my memory is correct I think he played back in that game and allowed a lot of 3rd and long conversions in a soft zone.  Not since Gibbs 1.0 under Pettibone have opposing offenses feared our defense on third downs.   It's really a bizarre version of football groundhog day. 

 

Whenever I see 3rd and long I think "well, the offense has us right where they want us."  In my mind, if it ain't working then stop doing it!  I'd rather see the QB on his rear after a conversion than to see all our defenders covering grass and allowing the opponents best receiver or TE find a hole for an easy pitch and catch.   

Edited September 24, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[Stadium-Armory]

Haven't seen it reported anywhere else. Nothing on twitter either. Not sure if true:

 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Stadium-Armory

[ExoDus84]

23 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I think the defense will snap out of it.  Too much talent.   But will see. 

 

We better. The Giants aren't exactly the '07 Patriots, and they moved the ball at will most of the day. We have games against the Bills, Chiefs and Packers coming up, so they better get right soon.

[ILikeBilly]

51 minutes ago, ExoDus84 said:

 

We better. The Giants aren't exactly the '07 Patriots, and they moved the ball at will most of the day. We have games against the Bills, Chiefs and Packers coming up, so they better get right soon.

228 yards passing, 163 rushing yards, but 46 was on a QB keeper.  We held Barkley to 57 and 41 came on one run.  On his other 12 runs he averaged 1.3 yards per carry.  We bent on D, but they had to settle for 5 fgs.  Three were from 50+ yards and a forth was from 47.  Outside of two long runs, the D did fine.  Not great.

[ExoDus84]

1 hour ago, ILikeBilly said:

228 yards passing, 163 rushing yards, but 46 was on a QB keeper.  We held Barkley to 57 and 41 came on one run.  On his other 12 runs he averaged 1.3 yards per carry.  We bent on D, but they had to settle for 5 fgs.  Three were from 50+ yards and a forth was from 47.  Outside of two long runs, the D did fine.  Not great.

 

Like I said, the D didn't play well.  We gave up 400 yards of offense, 29 points, and 7 scoring drives to a team with a bottom-tier QB, a mediocre offense and a bad offensive line.

 

We need to be better.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

I don’t like the “If you take away his big run/catch, he only had this many yards” point of view. I mean, if you take away all of Alvin Kamara’s big plays he would probably seem pretty average. It’s a bogus way to look at stats. 
 

Our defense has played piss poor for two games. I have faith they we will get it going, but let’s not sugarcoat it. They’ve stunk up the joint.

Edited September 25, 2021 by AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy

[Warhead36]

You also have to factor in they dropped(or overthrew, whatever)a wide open TD as well.

 

The D has been downright abysmal. Bottom 5 in the league at the moment.

[skins island connection]

10 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

You didn't like Joe Barry's quote about no rear view mirrors?  Little did we know, those mirrors wouldn't be needed because our defenders were still running behind the guy with the ball.  Or were they escorting them to the end zone?  

 

The third and long conversions irritate me the most.  Even under Gregg Williams we had that problem.  I remember the butt whipping we took with him from Brady and if my memory is correct I think he played back in that game and allowed a lot of 3rd and long conversions in a soft zone.  Not since Gibbs 1.0 under Pettibone have opposing offenses feared our defense on third downs.   It's really a bizarre version of football groundhog day. 

 

Whenever I see 3rd and long I think "well, the offense has us right where they want us."  In my mind, if it ain't working then stop doing it!  I'd rather see the QB on his rear after a conversion than to see all our defenders covering grass and allowing the opponents best receiver or TE find a hole for an easy pitch and catch.   

 

 I'd still prefer Williams to DelTaco.

One play in particular when he had the 'zero blitz' { maybe a different name } where everyone was at the LOS, and they were instructed to pop the WR/TE right off the line to throw the offense out of whack while everyone else attacked their opponents. Yea there were a few times where it didn't work so well but when it does, WOW. 

[ILikeBilly]

8 hours ago, ExoDus84 said:

 

Like I said, the D didn't play well.  We gave up 400 yards of offense, 29 points, and 7 scoring drives to a team with a bottom-tier QB, a mediocre offense and a bad offensive line.

 

We need to be better.

7 scoring drives, but only two of them made it to the red zone.  Career day by Gano.  In today's nfl, 400 yards of offense isn't rare.  Holding a QB to 228 passing yards is a good day.   I am not trying to say our D was really good.  They weren't. But, there was a ton of good stuff to build from.  I think they are close to being back in form.  They could play better this week and still give a 25+ points.  The bills are going to be tough.

[Silvernon]

58 minutes ago, ILikeBilly said:

7 scoring drives, but only two of them made it to the red zone.  Career day by Gano.  In today's nfl, 400 yards of offense isn't rare.  Holding a QB to 228 passing yards is a good day.   I am not trying to say our D was really good.  They weren't. But, there was a ton of good stuff to build from.  I think they are close to being back in form.  They could play better this week and still give a 25+ points.  The bills are going to be tough.

Isn't Daniel Jones 4-1 vs WFT with the most recent game (loss) was the best QB rating of those 5 games?

 

Just going off what I remember reading. 

 

If so, a QB that looks replacement level vs almost literally every other defense has to be really concerning for Ron and co.

[OtisDriftwood25]

On 9/23/2021 at 8:51 PM, Warhead36 said:

Del Rio is a fine coach. He'll never be an innovator or one of those super creative types, but he'll get us playing good defense at some point.

This is spot on. This weekend when you watch the 4 o’clock games or Sunday night game, watch the other team defense. Good defensive coordinators are starting to innovate just like offenses have over the past 10 years. The Chargers begged us to run. Tampa bay/ Baltimore you never know who is blitzing. My 2 biggest concerns are the other teams qb/offensive coordinator know what defense we are in 90% of the times and we show our blitz too early. I’d rather Holcomb or Bostic be late than every time with 15 seconds on the play clock we show them, “hey this is where we are coming from slide over here”.

[Thinking Skins]

8 hours ago, ILikeBilly said:

7 scoring drives, but only two of them made it to the red zone.  Career day by Gano.  In today's nfl, 400 yards of offense isn't rare.  Holding a QB to 228 passing yards is a good day.   I am not trying to say our D was really good.  They weren't. But, there was a ton of good stuff to build from.  I think they are close to being back in form.  They could play better this week and still give a 25+ points.  The bills are going to be tough.

I get that, and honestly if we do the same thing with Josh Allen I think it would be seen as positive. But there's also the stuff that's not in the numbers, like the two TDs they missed (one by a ghost holding call and one by a drop on a wide open ball). Would you even be able to make this argument if those two plays were made? And that's with the assumption that TH was still able to rally the troops and lead us to a victory. But if we lost and gave up those two TDs the defense would be scary. 

 

And then it gets to the meat of the issue for today. JA is better than DJ at just about everything. more athletic, more pocket awareness, better deep ball, similar accuracy, similar turnivers, better WRs. So if we gave up these stats to DJ. what are we going to give up to JA? We did have 4 sacks and part of me wonders if we somehow turned off the jets in the second half (to try to play prevent-ish) or guys started getting sloppy going for the sack / big play instead of continuing to play disciplined. Because there was a stretch in the second into the third that we looked good. But then there was the additional stuff like the drives extended by penalties on third down (Chase young on first drive, Collins on one of the FG drives. They're making this game easier for the other team. 

[Going Commando]

I can see the logic behind not blitzing Herbert and Jones much.  They're smart and we don't want to simplify the coverage reads for them, we have talented DLs who should be getting pressure with our front four/five, and we are worried about the secondary right now.  But the problem is our DL and secondary just aren't working right yet.  DL got stymied against the Chargers and the secondary has pretty much been a complete mess, blowing coverages at an alarming rate.

[Going Commando]

On 9/23/2021 at 11:49 AM, Warhead36 said:

Yes 100% you need a good QB if you want to be a year in year out contender. But the ones that win rings tend to be playing with great defenses. See Roethlisberger, Wilson, Brady, etc. The only one that I can think of in recent memory that didn't have a great defense was Mahomes in 2019 but even they went out and got Frank Clark and Tyrann Matthieu the previous offseason(they were more I'd say opportunistic than legit shut down).

 

When this came up in the draft thread last week, I spent way too long looking for examples of seasons where one of the most explosive playmaking and individually dominant QBs won the SB in the last 20 years, and it was bizarrely uncommon.  Pretty much Peyton Manning in 2006 was the only clear cut example of it, with Brees in 2009 and Mahomes in 2019 being on the fringe of that with 17 AV seasons the years they won.

 

What's fascinatingly consistent is that, in the best individual seasons of the careers of all of the great QBs from the last two generations, years where they won MVPs and put up 19+ AV, they almost never won the SB too.  In almost every case they lost in the postseason when they came up against a team with a better defense and/or OL.  And for the QBs who had that happen but also won SBs in other years, those were seasons where they were almost always much more ordinary--13-16 AV years or maybe even less.  This is way too pronounced a pattern not to have a causal connection.  Teams that get dominant individual QB play are flawed in some kind of way that dooms them against more complete teams with lesser QB play.  Something that works for them in the regular season stops working in the postseason.  It kind of reminds me of the NBA when guys who live at the FT line and win scoring titles and MVPs in the regular season run into a wall in the playoffs and get exposed.

 

Defense does still win championships, but it is immensely difficult to build a championship caliber D, they never tend to stay together and play at a championship level for very long, and it is monstrously difficult to reload after a decline in level of play--this is why there are no repeat SB winners in forever.  But if you ever want to win a SB--even if you have a HoF bound QB--you still have to build that defense.

Edited September 25, 2021 by stevemcqueen1

[Going Commando]

And the more I think about it, the more I realize Brees winning in 2009 was him playing a team that was equally flawed and skewed towards offense and his was actually the better defense beating the team who was more reliant on a great QB.  And those 2006 Colts came perilously close to losing the SB to a Rex Grossman-led Bears team who had dominant D/ST.  And the 2019 Chiefs probably should have lost that SB to the 49ers but Kyle Shanahan puked all over himself.

 

It's kind of crazy how unblemished the record of great defenses are in the postseason, but the problem is how mercurial defensive greatness has become.  It takes years of great GM work to build one, and then when it finally comes together, you better hope you at least have a Brad Johnson or Eli Manning or Joe Flacco or Nick Foles caliber QB concurrently leading your offense.  At least someone better than replacement level garbage like Rex Grossman.

Edited September 25, 2021 by stevemcqueen1

[Going Commando]

On 9/23/2021 at 2:19 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

I think the defense will snap out of it.  Too much talent.   But will see. 

 

I think they will too.  This has been kind of a wake up call that this isn't a fully matured group yet, which we probably should have realized before since a lot of the key guys have less than three years of experience--Jamin, Chase, Holcomb, Juice, Curl, Sweat.  But they're going to get it figured out, and I do think that they will open up a window of contention for us eventually, if we keep adding a good player to the group here and there.

 

Our challenge is to find stable leadership and play at the QB position while cultivating this D.  This will be a revelatory season that will make our path forward clear.