All things defense

[Warhead36]

So if teams are leaving 6 blockers for 4 rushers, that means we have 7 guys covering 4. We shouldn't have the problems in the back end that we've been having.

[ThomasRoane]

Really good article from Keim.  The big picture here is that the defense (more so than the offense) is very interdependent.  One person out of position can cost you.  You also see that other teams have adjusted as a matter of respect for the front four.  So, the back end really has to step it up and be where they're supposed to be.  

 

Good news about Davis.  I like him and would love to see him on the field more.  He'll figure it out.  

55 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

So if teams are leaving 6 blockers for 4 rushers, that means we have 7 guys covering 4. We shouldn't have the problems in the back end that we've been having.

 

Correct - mostly. Often the players who are chipping leak out for their route so it's not always 7 guarding 4.  

 

Regardless, imagine the frustration for the coaching staff.  They can't allow the same people to continue to make mistakes.  Either they need to play better or get off the field.  

Edited September 22, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[skinny21]

6 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

So if teams are leaving 6 blockers for 4 rushers, that means we have 7 guys covering 4. We shouldn't have the problems in the back end that we've been having.

I wonder whether they’re including TEs/backs that chip.

[elias9193]

Chip or no chip this defense needs to step it up all around, against the pass and against the run as well!

We have some good players so they are either not playing up to their potential or the Coaches need to do a better job.

We can't rely on the offense putting up 30+ points every week, its not going to happen.

[Redwolves92]

looking back to last year it seems the defense gave up 30 points to almost every good team and a ton of yardage. Even the lions. the expectation is there for them to perform as it should be given the players they have but they have never really actually lived up to it.

 

Points given up may not be the only stat to consider as the offense was bad but I personally did not see the defense highly despite their ranking. The star studded d line should be ashamed of themselves, how they don't get enough pressure/sacks is mind boggling. JDR has a great track record and the players to do it. what ****ing gives?  

[Leonard Washington]

I’m annoyed with the defense talking about their talent. Meanwhile the “least talented” player on the field is making things happen. 

[wit33]

12 minutes ago, Redwolves92 said:

looking back to last year it seems the defense gave up 30 points to almost every good team and a ton of yardage. Even the lions. the expectation is there for them to perform as it should be given the players they have but they have never really actually lived up to it.

 

That’s kind of how it works these days. The days of relying/expecting a defense to dominate a great QB/offense are done. Sure, it happens, a coordinator can have his defense a step ahead in a game, but nothing one should rely on.

 

Dominate the weaker opponents and compete with the better opponents. 

 

12 minutes ago, Redwolves92 said:

 

Points given up may not be the only stat to consider as the offense was bad but I personally did not see the defense highly despite their ranking. 
 

 

The defense was the catalyst to ending the year strong. Rankings and statistics have value, but just watching the team last year, the defense was a huge positive in the season. Filled with many Greta moments, game saving/clinching plays, and players playing at a high level.
 

Relative to the rest of the league the defense was great. 
 

1 minute ago, Leonard Washington said:

I’m annoyed with the defense talking about their talent. Meanwhile the “least talented” player on the field is making things happen. 

 
Feeling themselves a bit going into the year I speculate may be part of the issues going on. 

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, wit33 said:

 

That’s kind of how it works these days. The days of relying/expecting a defense to dominate a great QB/offense are done. Sure, it happens, a coordinator can have his defense a step ahead in a game, but nothing one should rely on.

 

Dominate the weaker opponents and compete with the better opponents.

Sure but we didn't compete against the better opponents. We got dominated by every single one of them.

[Tedskins 21]

Do we entertain bringing Jamie Collins in?  Or will that just result in a second Jersey stamped with the name Collins on it being left behind?  He would probably only cost a 7th.  He could even be cut?

 

(Would he even want to come here?)

Edited September 22, 2021 by Tedskins 21

[CTskin]

All I know is we better be studying the **** out of the week 1 Steelers vs Bills tape. 
 

10 days rest, we can’t come out spotting the opponent 7 after the first two drives again. Turner and Del Rio better have a brilliant script cooked up.
 

The front 4 wasn’t stymied last year until the TB game. I seriously wonder if the blueprint is now out there. 
 

regardless, chase and sweat need to win and win a lot. They need to be gamechangers; aside from the sweat forced “fumble” in week 1 they’ve been JAGs.

[ThomasRoane]

38 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Sure but we didn't compete against the better opponents. We got dominated by every single one of them.

 

True.  I don't believe that RR and JDR were fooled by the rankings.  They drafted a LB in the first, DB in the 3rd, and a Safety in the 5th.  Then two DEs in the seventh.  Signed WJ III to a big contract.  He has been an upgrade.  Signed Bobby McCain and McTyer (who I would like to see play more).  So I'd say the coaches and the FO knew what the truth was. 

 

RR pushed Bostic in the offseason to get a lot better.  LC lost weight to get faster.  I'll bet that was highly recommended to him.

 

The coaches know they don't have all the pieces for an elite defense right now.  Of course they can't say that publicly.  But I'm sure they have Mayhew scanning practice squads to see if they can poach some help.  They've got what they got right now.  No since whining about what you don't have.  It's on them to get the best 11 defensive players on the field.  Feelings will get hurt but you owe it to players like Jonathan Allen who are fighting their guts out.

[srtman04]

1 hour ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

you owe it to players like Jonathan Allen who are fighting their guts out.

 

Coach Gibbs, is that you?   😆

[skins island connection]

3 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

The coaches know they don't have all the pieces for an elite defense right now.  Of course they can't say that publicly.  But I'm sure they have Mayhew scanning practice squads to see if they can poach some help.  They've got what they got right now.  No since whining about what you don't have.  It's on them to get the best 11 defensive players on the field.  Feelings will get hurt but you owe it to players like Jonathan Allen who are fighting their guts out.

 

I've never really viewed DelRio as any type of scheme-oriented guy; more of a 'read-n-react' finger pointer, hence the bend but don't break mentality. 

But he and Chris Harris really need to work on the DBs/safeties; almost every big 3rd down they end up in a soft zone watching a WR/TE streaking through them. There's really never a play for the ball because the coverage is usually in pursuit trying to catch up to make the tackle. Field presence.

[Koolblue13]

Chris Harris is a hot name for HC/DC jobs, so im sure he'll figure it out.

[Skinsinparadise]

Listening to PFF guys in two different radio segments.  their take:

 

A good defense everything being equal defeats bad offenses.  Story of the WFT 2020 season.

 

A good offense everything being equal defeats a good defense.  Likely the story of the WFT 2021 season.

 

The 2020 defense they think might be overrated considering they shone mostly by beating bad offenses.  They think the 2021 defense might ultimately be underrated because they are talented but with today's NFL rules -- the offense has the edge.  Defenses won championships in the 80s-90s.  Offenses win championships in this century and its only getting more pronounced as time marches on.  

 

They think every now and then a good defense can shoot down a good offense but often they don't. 

 

True or not, i am not sure.  But that does bring me back to a few years ago where many of us thought the defense arrived when they beat up on some mediocre offenses but then Matt Ryan and Drew Brees smoked the defense like the unit was pure garbage and they were exposed. 

 

Personally I am not a mile away from PFF's take but not fully with their take.  I do think this defense should and will have some big moments this season -- we got talent. 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

Last superbowl was the 2 best offenses and was decided by the better defense.

 

It's never a black and white league.

 

The Bills beat Miami because of their defense. The Seahawk passing game lost to the running game of Tennesse.

 

It's all important, but there are very few superstars and even less with teams built around them. 

[Warhead36]

Ultimately what wins Super Bowls is balance.

 

Sure the Bucs had Brady and a great offense last year, but their D was great in the NFC Title game forcing a bunch of Rodgers picks. And in the Super Bowl they completely dominated Mahomes. Ditto the 2013 Seahawks D which dominated the #1 ranked Broncos passing game that year.

 

The Patriots when they won it all in 2017 was largely because of their D shutting down wunderkind McVay's high powered Rams offense. They were actually more of a traditional run the ball/play D type team but of course still had Brady.

 

The 2015 Broncos were carried by their D. Manning was washed by the time the playoffs rolled around but did just enough to not lose them games.

 

You can't really be extreme one way or another. But the way I see it, I think an average offense(as long as your QB is good)and a great defense has a better chance than a great offense and an average defense. There are a long list of #1 ranked offenses that flame out but the #1 ranked defenses tend to win more.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Warhead36

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

32 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Last superbowl was the 2 best offenses and was decided by the better defense.

 

It's never a black and white league.

 

The Bills beat Miami because of their defense. The Seahawk passing game lost to the running game of Tennesse.

 

It's all important, but there are very few superstars and even less with teams built around them. 

 

Agree there are no absolutes.  It's all about trends.  And the trend favors offenses over defenses.  It's not even a debate.  The reason for example more predicted Dallas would be better than the WFT this year, including Vegas is because offense > defense.   It's an aggregate trend though, everything has exceptions. 

 

Tampa and KC both had great offenses.   Brady had a 126 QB rating in the SB.   Great offense plus great defense > Great offense and medicore defense

 

It's never though about absolutes, I agree.  A good defense can shut down a good offense from time to time especially if that defense is supported by their own good offense like in the case of Tampa.    But by and large teams with prolific offenses tend to have an advantage.  It's part of the reason why its becoming a cliche that its a QB driven league now.  

 

Some will say what about Nick Foles?  Yep but Nick Foles played like Tom Brady in the playoffs and especially the SB.  The other part of it is a really good offense helps a really good defense and vice versa.  So a balanced team who is really good on both fronts like Tampa could be hard to stop. 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

37 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Ultimately what wins Super Bowls is balance.

 

Sure the Bucs had Brady and a great offense last year, but their D was great in the NFC Title game forcing a bunch of Rodgers picks. And in the Super Bowl they completely dominated Mahomes. Ditto the 2013 Seahawks D which dominated the #1 ranked Broncos passing game that year.

 

The Patriots when they won it all in 2017 was largely because of their D shutting down wunderkind McVay's high powered Rams offense. They were actually more of a traditional run the ball/play D type team but of course still had Brady.

 

The 2015 Broncos were carried by their D. Manning was washed by the time the playoffs rolled around but did just enough to not lose them games.

 

You can't really be extreme one way or another. But the way I see it, I think an average offense(as long as your QB is good)and a great defense has a better chance than a great offense and an average defense. There are a long list of #1 ranked offenses that flame out but the #1 ranked defenses tend to win more.

 

I agree balance is key.  Also the time of the season.  When it gets colder -- defense/running game become a bigger deal.  Good offenses tend to be more consistent from year to year versus defenses.  Both PFF and Football Outsiders have shown studies on that.  Everything being equal I would take a killer offense over a killer defense.  But if you can sneak me into the playoffs, I'd prefer a hot/streaky offense (that maybe isn't uber talented) like the Eagles one when they won the SB and a killer defense as opposed to a killer offense with a bad-mediocre defense.  

 

Just in general, IMO you got a better shot to remain consistently relevant with a big time offense-big time QB than you would with a medicore offense but loaded defense.  

Edited September 23, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[steve09ru]

Haven't seen or really looked a lot into Jamie Collins but sounds like he could be traded.  Is he someone who could help out at LB?

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/lions-exploring-trade-options-for-veteran-lb-jamie-collins

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, steve09ru said:

Haven't seen or really looked a lot into Jamie Collins but sounds like he could be traded.  Is he someone who could help out at LB?

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/lions-exploring-trade-options-for-veteran-lb-jamie-collins

 

That was painful for me to read, I loved Barnes in that draft.  Baller.

 

The club is exploring trade possibilities for Collins, fielding calls from other clubs as part of a youth movement at the position, according to NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport. The emergence of linebacker Derrick Barnes, a rookie fourth-round draft pick from Purdue, has made Collins more expendable, per Rapoport. Collins was listed as a DNP on Wednesday's practice report because of a "personal matter."

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I agree balance is key.  Also the time of the season.  When it gets colder -- defense/running game become a bigger deal.  Good offenses tend to be more consistent from year to year versus defenses.  Both PFF and Football Outsiders have shown studies on that.  Everything being equal I would take a killer offense over a killer defense.  But if you can sneak me into the playoffs, I'd prefer a hot/streaky offense (that maybe isn't uber talented) like the Eagles one when they won the SB and a killer defense as opposed to a killer offense with a bad-mediocre defense.  

 

Just in general, IMO you got a better shot to remain consistently relevant with a big time offense-big time QB than you would with a medicore offense but loaded defense.  

Yes 100% you need a good QB if you want to be a year in year out contender. But the ones that win rings tend to be playing with great defenses. See Roethlisberger, Wilson, Brady, etc. The only one that I can think of in recent memory that didn't have a great defense was Mahomes in 2019 but even they went out and got Frank Clark and Tyrann Matthieu the previous offseason(they were more I'd say opportunistic than legit shut down).

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Yes 100% you need a good QB if you want to be a year in year out contender. But the ones that win rings tend to be playing with great defenses. See Roethlisberger, Wilson, Brady, etc. The only one that I can think of in recent memory that didn't have a great defense was Mahomes in 2019 but even they went out and got Frank Clark and Tyrann Matthieu the previous offseason(they were more I'd say opportunistic than legit shut down).

 

Yep.  A good defense is of course useful.  I guess my point is short is everything being equal i do think a good offense trumps a good defense in today's NFL -- i don't think the anaylitic types are off on it.  But yeah definitely you want both.  It's actually not easy to have a good defense when your offense stinks but some teams have pulled that off here and there including us last year.  Typically there is some synergy between the 2 units.  If your offense for example keeps going 3 and out it can wear down a defense, etc. 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[wit33]

18 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Sure but we didn't compete against the better opponents. We got dominated by every single one of them.

Dominated is a stretch, but I can see how one can reach that conclusion when looking back at the scores of last season and some of the stats (not accusing you of this). These are variables I lean on heavily when attempting to get a feel for the rest of the league—much less for Washington, due to feeling I have a deeper understanding from watching every game. 
 

Defenses can still be great, but if playing against the top half of the league and especially the contenders, that defense must receive support from the offense. The support can be provided in various ways: score at a high rate, dominate time of possession, limit TOs, steal momentum of games for stretches, limit 3 and outs, flip the field when needed etc..

 

Some are easier to achieve than others, but the Washington defense didn’t have this support consistently at all last year, even with my guy Alex Smith lol (shell of himself). 
 

Run defense remains the one non negotiable in being a great defense in today’s NFL and is achievable.