Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

I think we should draft a QB. I’d rather get a **** QB that’s the next Josh Doctson or whatever, we have picks and cap space. We need a QB for the long term.

 

This year we have started Haskins, Allen, Smith, then some guy named after a beer is the saviour.

 

I don’t care if we sign a FA QB and draft one. We need continuity.

 

I know it makes for a boring debate if I ride with my main thought on this which is I am 100% zen as to how to approach this.  That is, it depends on what the options are.   I don't have so much a theoritical approach to the position -- I want to see all the restaurants lined up on the block first and then I'd choose.  I am open to a veteran.  I am open to a rookie.  i am open to trading.

 

I am in the camp that this defense is legitmately for real.  I think Chase has had the ripple effect that I thought he might provide.  But if I didn't and saw this roster just like I did in 2019, i wouldn't sweat QB.

 

The reason why i am willing to engage in the Stafford debate is that I think we'd be lucky if he ends up in the pool of options let alone some of the posts from some about I'll pass, he's never won a playoff game, he's just a stats guy, etc.  Instead of Stafford our options could easily be a somewhat uninspired lineup like Mac Jones, Brissett or Winston or name that other permutation.  

 

Will see but I am open to anything.  And I am not married to a specific theory as to what restaurant I want until I see the restaurants right in front of me. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Est.1974]

I don’t see the cap being an issue. You work around that. It’s draft capital I would worry about.

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The reason why i am willing to engage in the Stafford debate.

 
I’m a big Stafford fan, I just can’t see us winning that race if he was available. NE all the way in my opinion.

[mhd24]

10 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

I don’t see the cap being an issue. You work around that. It’s draft capital I would worry about.

 
I’m a big Stafford fan, I just can’t see us winning that race if he was available. NE all the way in my opinion.

Indy.  They have the cap space and the need assuming they don’t want Wentz

[Ball Security]

8 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

I don’t see the cap being an issue. You work around that. It’s draft capital I would worry about.

 
I’m a big Stafford fan, I just can’t see us winning that race if he was available. NE all the way in my opinion.

Could be, regarding NE.  They arguably have more holes on their roster than we do.  Are they willing to give up more?  One thing I keep coming back to is that Detroit only has 4 picks going into the draft.  Would it be better for both if we offered more picks in the middle rounds than a number 1.  Then we could slide back in the first, possibly, depending on how the draft goes.

[Darrell Green Fan]

1 hour ago, FrFan said:

We had Rypien 6th for a short time, and Theismann 4th (Dolphins) , but you're right the odds to select a reliable QB are slim to none considering how much we suck at this task.

I would pass on the QB this year, I think we're not that bad with Allen, Smith and Heineke for one more year, I wouldn't like to sell the farm again for a QB that would become another bust on the list. I hope we can draft a good OT and G to avoid the beating they took this year

Alex Smith is a huge injury risk, if he is even on the team next year it will probably be his last.   To the previous poster's point we need to get our new long term QB now because we have no idea what QBs will be available next offseason. 

[Ball Security]

4 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

Indy.  They have the cap space and the need assuming they don’t want Wentz

Does over the cap add in rollover money?  In other words they have us at $48M in 2021 and $22M in 2020 space.

Indy has roughly 65.5 and 8.5.  Do they have 17.5 more than us next year or 4?

[Darrell Green Fan]

The Lions will take a $20 million cap hit if they trade Mathew Stafford. I can't imagine they would ever do that. 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

 
I’m a big Stafford fan, I just can’t see us winning that race if he was available. NE all the way in my opinion.

 

if so, so be it.

 

The best analogy I can come up with it is some are shooting down skirt steak for multiple reasons, some say its good but its too expensive, some saying its overrated, etc.  And I get the logic of it even though I disagree.    But the irony of it to me (and this is just a guess and I hope I am wrong on this) is I think there is better shot that the skirt steak options don't even materalize let alone get upgraded to filet mignon.  It's I think a better chance that the skirt steak options don't come to bear and instead we are talking about what's the best options among multiple low grade beef options.   Sorry to the vegetarians for that analogy but its the best one that hit me. 😀

 

I want to play the best hand we get.  Impossible to know until it plays out.  But I'd guess right now if we lose on Sunday the best hand is likely the draft but if we win the best hand is likely a veteran. 

[KillBill26]

55 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I stock the cupboard with a running game and even stronger D, grab a QB I like and is available for cheap and won’t hinder forward progression and make the best run I can if I can’t get the rookie QB or a vet I love doesn’t become available.

Valid points.  While I hope a good qb option presents itself sooner rather than later, there is definitely a number of paths (ie darrisaw at 19, premier FA at WR, methodically plug holes in a cost efficient way like we did last off-season) where we would improve.  Be interesting to see how it all shakes out.  

[Skinsinparadise]

 Chase has got me thinking maybe it should be Heinicke?  😀

 

 

ht

 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[FrFan]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

QB PHILOSOPHY: KEEP DRAFTING

There’s plenty to be said about finding a franchise quarterback, and regular listeners to any of the podcasts on the PFF network are familiar with our stance.

While not everyone at PFF agrees on every team-building strategy, we are generally in lockstep with finding a top quarterback at all costs. That's quite tricky to define, but I use “top eight” as an arbitrary cutoff that teams should be looking to achieve. Having one of the top eight or 10 quarterbacks, when viewed from a macro lens, allows for most consistency from year to year and a higher floor for the win column. Of course, the “mid-tier” quarterbacks are capable of top-10-caliber seasons, but they’re also just as likely to disappoint.

 

That’s the difficult part of searching for a quarterback, but it's also why the Dwayne Haskins release by the Washington Football Team should not be seen as a failure. They took a shot on a quarterback, it didn’t work out, and it’s time to move on.

[Anselmheifer]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

You’re misinterpreting what I’m saying. Though it’s likely due to me not explaining it properly.

 

I think our window begins in 2022. That’s the ideal time we have our QB. But if he come around this offseason, that’s ideal. If he doesn’t and then again doesn’t next year, then he doesn’t. Continue to stock the cupboard, cover for expiring contracts, re-up who you have to and when the best opportunity to get your guy is available... strike. The quarterback game is a game of patience and waiting for what comes to you. 
 

The key is to keep your roster in good shape and strike when the iron is hot and a guy you love. 
 

Not love the idea of. But a guy you genuinely think you can build around and WANT to build around. Josh Allen comes to mind. 
 

I am VERY against grabbing a QB just because you like them and they are available. If it ain’t love, don’t do it. Unless it’s for a season or two fling and you’re both open and honest about it.

 

 

I feel the exact same way about loving a guy. Most QB's fail. Even high in the 1st. We need to identify someone we love and get THAT guy. Not grab Lance because we need a QB and he's in our draft range, for instance. 

 

And I'm starting to warm up to the idea that the reality might be that 2021 isn't going to be our best shot at a QB. Dak will probably be franchised, but might be available next year. Stafford will probably stick around another year, for a new regime to evaluate and for the cap hit of trading him to decrease. I don't think we will be in range to grab one of the top 3 prospects and I don't love Lance. 

 

I've been stuck on the idea of how much we could upgrade our skill positions however, with a little luck. Imagine taking Pitts in the 1st, Kadarius Toney in the 2nd, RB/TE/IOL in the 3rd/4th, and signing an Allen Robinson. We'd go from one of the worst skill groups in the league, to one of the best, in one season. McLaurin, Allen Robinson, Kadarius Tony, Kyle Pitts, Logan Thomas, Antonio Gibson and Javonte Williams? Ridiculous. In 2022 we'd have more than enough offensive and defensive talent to make a big trade up in the draft for a high end QB, or to trade draft assets for a high end veteran. 

[KDawg]

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

QB PHILOSOPHY: KEEP DRAFTING

There’s plenty to be said about finding a franchise quarterback, and regular listeners to any of the podcasts on the PFF network are familiar with our stance.

While not everyone at PFF agrees on every team-building strategy, we are generally in lockstep with finding a top quarterback at all costs. That's quite tricky to define, but I use “top eight” as an arbitrary cutoff that teams should be looking to achieve. Having one of the top eight or 10 quarterbacks, when viewed from a macro lens, allows for most consistency from year to year and a higher floor for the win column. Of course, the “mid-tier” quarterbacks are capable of top-10-caliber seasons, but they’re also just as likely to disappoint.

 

That’s the difficult part of searching for a quarterback, but it's also why the Dwayne Haskins release by the Washington Football Team should not be seen as a failure. They took a shot on a quarterback, it didn’t work out, and it’s time to move on.

I strongly, adamently, vehemently disagree with the tag line.

 

”It shouldn’t be looked at as a failure”.

 

Yes. It should. Because the guy who drafted that QB wasn’t a football person. We had a lame duck head coach. And we had what turned out to be a lame duck GM. 
 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

If so, I think Atlanta tries to trade Ryan

 

 

 

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

I feel the exact same way about loving a guy. Most QB's fail. Even high in the 1st. We need to identify someone we love and get THAT guy. Not grab Lance because we need a QB and he's in our draft range, for instance. 

 

And I'm starting to warm up to the idea that the reality might be that 2021 isn't going to be our best shot at a QB. Dak will probably be franchised, but might be available next year. Stafford will probably stick around another year, for a new regime to evaluate and for the cap hit of trading him to decrease. I don't think we will be in range to grab one of the top 3 prospects and I don't love Lance. 

 

I've been stuck on the idea of how much we could upgrade our skill positions however, with a little luck. Imagine taking Pitts in the 1st, Kadarius Toney in the 2nd, RB/TE/IOL in the 3rd/4th, and signing an Allen Robinson. We'd go from one of the worst skill groups in the league, to one of the best, in one season. McLaurin, Allen Robinson, Kadarius Tony, Kyle Pitts, Logan Thomas, Antonio Gibson and Javonte Williams? Ridiculous. In 2022 we'd have more than enough offensive and defensive talent to make a big trade up in the draft for a high end QB, or to trade draft assets for a high end veteran. 

I very much like Lance, but the strategy isn’t predicated on my likes. As long as the franchise genuinely wants the guy to be our QB and builds the roster and foundation to help him thrive, I don’t really care who it is.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

I strongly, adamently, vehemently disagree with the tag line.

 

”It shouldn’t be looked at as a failure”.

 

Yes. It should. Because the guy who drafted that QB wasn’t a football person. We had a lame duck head coach. And we had what turned out to be a lame duck GM. 
 

 

 

I agree.  It's just that PFF is obsessed with the concept of keep swinging for a QB so they wanted to double down on that point. 

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I agree.  It's just that PFF is obsessed with the concept of keep swinging for a QB so they wanted to double down on that point. 

In that lens I agree. But I think it’s dangerous to say that it wasn’t a failure. It was. But not because the draft pick didn’t pan out. Because the guy no one apparently wanted was selected by the owner.

[DJHJR86]

I think people are forgetting that the offense looked its best with Kyle Allen this season, and that he was specifically brought here via trade.  There's no way he isn't on the roster as the presumptive starter (assuming Smith gets cut or retires) going into next year.  That doesn't mean they don't draft a guy, but Rivera strikes me as more of a less splash more familiarity type of coach/GM.  

[88Comrade2000]

I think Alex Smith has earned the right to return in 2021, if he choses.  I just wouldn't promise him that he will be the starter but he be able to compete for the job.   I don't think Alex can play a full season anymore; so I am hoping he choses to retire.  If he returns, we need a capable #2; who will eventually be our long term starter.

 

If we are going to trade multiple picks to get a QB; then I prefer we trade up in the draft to get that QB.  I don't think we should trade multiple picks to get an older veteran like Stafford or aging veteran like Ryan.   I would explore the options among the younger QBs who need a change of scenery like Wentz,Darnold, Mariotta.  Can they be rehabilitated have a second career with us?  That would be ideal.  They already have NFL experience; just needs to new home to reach their potential.  

 

Whatever we do, QB will be the most crucial decision for us in 2021.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

In that lens I agree. But I think it’s dangerous to say that it wasn’t a failure. It was. But not because the draft pick didn’t pan out. Because the guy no one apparently wanted was selected by the owner.

 

I agree, its a debacle.  The owner overriding both the coaching staff and the scouts and Kyle.  Hopefully he learned his lesson.  Will see.  But we wasted a first round pick.  Sheehan doubled down today that they wanted to take D. Savage or Sweat with that 15th pick.  

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Rdskns2000 said:

I think Alex Smith has earned the right to return in 2021, if he choses.  I just wouldn't promise him that he will be the starter but he be able to compete for the job.   I don't think Alex can play a full season anymore; so I am hoping he choses to retire.  If he returns, we need a capable #2; who will eventually be our long term starter.

 

If we are going to trade multiple picks to get a QB; then I prefer we trade up in the draft to get that QB.  I don't think we should trade multiple picks to get an older veteran like Stafford or aging veteran like Ryan.   I would explore the options among the younger QBs who need a change of scenery like Wentz,Darnold, Mariotta.  Can they be rehabilitated have a second career with us?  That would be ideal.  They already have NFL experience; just needs to new home to reach their potential.  

 

Whatever we do, QB will be the most crucial decision for us in 2021.

 

 

Alex from what I've gathered would take up 25 million against the cap so he'd be an expensive backup.  If he's back you got to make him the starter I think or at least start him with a rookie behind him. 

[KillBill26]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30612281/ryan-fitzpatrick-tua-tagovailoa-art-mentoring-competition

 

Fitzpatrick would be an interesting choice for qb in 2021.  I'm sure he wouldn't be viewed as the first choice.  But he is a veteran, has had success in the league, and very smart.  He has also handled the role of mentor admirably.  He would be a lot cheaper than rivers, stafford, ryan, dak etc.  However, he is aggressive and can be turnover prone, which is probably not the best fit for the defensive heavy, field position and ball control style of football we are creating.  For those who would prefer to wait another year or two for qb, if we still just have KA / TH after draft and FA, we could do worse for a stopgap.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

If so, I think Atlanta tries to trade Ryan

 

 

 

 

If so, I predict that someone will greatly overpay for Ryan. I just really hope it's not us. A 3rd would do it for me, but that's about it. 2nd is a mayyyybe. I'm guessing they'll try to get a 1st. 

 

1 hour ago, DJHJR86 said:

I think people are forgetting that the offense looked its best with Kyle Allen this season, and that he was specifically brought here via trade.  There's no way he isn't on the roster as the presumptive starter (assuming Smith gets cut or retires) going into next year.  That doesn't mean they don't draft a guy, but Rivera strikes me as more of a less splash more familiarity type of coach/GM.  

 

The offense looked much better with Allen than with Haskins. But that's really not saying much and Allen is still a completely mediocre QB. He was mediocre in Carolina and he was mediocre in his time playing here. Could he potentially come out and suddenly become the next Brady? I suppose. How likely is it though? I think he's a quality backup kind of guy. 

 

Assuming that a UDFA backup is our future isn't exactly an A+ strategy.

[Skinsinparadise]

32 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

If so, I predict that someone will greatly overpay for Ryan. I just really hope it's not us. A 3rd would do it for me, but that's about it. 2nd is a mayyyybe. I'm guessing they'll try to get a 1st. 

 

 

Ryan is 3 years older than Stafford and if my math is right a much bigger cap hit.  To me if they both hit the market:  Stafford >>> Ryan.   Everything being equal which granted it might not be.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[kingdaddy]

5 hours ago, mhd24 said:

Indy.  They have the cap space and the need assuming they don’t want Wentz

Just heard where it is highly unlikely that Wentz is dealt before June 1st due to his salary and the cap hit the Eagles would take. If they trade him prior to that date it's a 32 mil cap hit for them with the partner taking on that salary. Someone would have to be desperate or in love with him to do that. The thinking here in Philly is that the Eagles will likely play 2021 with both Wentz and Hurts on the roster. We'll see.

Sal Palantonio reported this.

Edited December 30, 2020 by kingdaddy
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