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A New Start! (the Reboot) The Front Office, Ownership, & Coaching Staff Thread


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9 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

Kelly/? First I've heard of that. Wow lol...

 

Ramsey was an out-in-the-open "meddle" at the time...He an Vinny running the show at least in terms of the draft--I think Spurrier had a large hand in free agency pickups--had the "cheap and available" quote concerning picking up ex-Gators he wanted-- as well as getting rid of Stephen Davis because he didn't fit his scheme, and replacing him with Trung Canidate. Spurrier wanted Wueruerffelll (sp? lol) so I remember not giving a **** that Snyderrato over-rid him.

 

There was a lot on Kelly. Dan went to his pro day to scout him personally.  There was even a story that the scouts wanted Jordy Nelson but Dan wanted kelly in spite of their medical staff not endorsing the move.

 

Some of the others that i recall where things didn't happen:

 

Supposedly Dan wanted Santana Moss but Marty wanted Gardner.  If so that was a rare one where Dan got it right.

 

He supposedly was in love with Brady Quinn but his scouts talked him out of it.

 

Tried to trade up for Mark Sanchez

 

Turned down by Cincy for 2 first rounders for Chad Johnson

 

Shanny said that Dan came into his office and told him he wants Randy Moss -- that was when Moss was a has been.  Shanny said he told him no. 

 

Tried to talk Gibbs into trading for Lance Briggs

 

Sheehan/Cooley seemed to suggest recently Archuelta was Dan's idea

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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11 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Really, I thought it was common knowledge that Dan was in love with Kelly.  That's been out there ever since he was drafted.  

 

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

There was a lot on Kelly. Dan went to his pro day to scout him personally.  There was even a story that the scouts wanted Jordy Nelson but Dan wanted kelly in spite of their medical staff not endorsing the move.

 

 

 

I must have blocked it out lol...I don't remember having any reaction to that news and I definitely would have.

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On 1/30/2021 at 6:14 PM, Califan007 said:

 

The problem with that, though, is this:

 

“Every year that I was there, we had a pretty good draft class, with a couple exceptions,”

 

So either Snyder's involvement in the draft helped lead to pretty good draft classes most years, or Snyder stayed on his yacht most years and didn't get involved except for Haskins.

It's two different issues though. Even if he did an OK job sometimes, it's still the wrong way to go about it and will lead to poor-to-mediocre outcomes more likely. And, that's been the biggest complaint about Snyder (from a football perspective). But, I suppose if you're resigned to the fact that he's going to meddle, then the hope should be that he becomes good at it. Jerry Jones meddles all the time, but he has some level of football acumen. And, not surprisingly, with a couple exceptions his teams have been better. 

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Clearly it's bad practice to employ people to spend 40+ hours per week to evaluate players and their fit on your team only to come over the top and try to make a personnel decision based on watching NFL Network or the MNF game. Sadly, being bad at that is probably not even on the top-5 list of why Snyder is a bad steward of this franchise. 

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14 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Keim's new podcast.

 

He gave two theories on Kyle Smith.

 

A.  Bruce Allen was close and remains close with the minority owners who are in this lawsuit fight with Dan.  And Dan isn't loving Bruce these days and wants to get rid of the Bruce ties and Kyle is the main one left. 

 

B.  Just simply that Rivera wanting to move on and create his own stamp on things and wasn't ready to promote Kyle

 

Keim's position is Rivera and Kyle actually got along well

 

He also believes that they want to groom Stokes perhaps as the future guy.  Their college player evaulation guy, Gribble, Kyle's top assistant looks to remain. 

 

 

With Gribble, you have to wonder if they are keeping him only for one more cycle in order to have some semblance of continuity going into the draft.

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10 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

There was a lot on Kelly. Dan went to his pro day to scout him personally.  There was even a story that the scouts wanted Jordy Nelson but Dan wanted kelly in spite of their medical staff not endorsing the move.

 

Some of the others that i recall where things didn't happen:

 

Supposedly Dan wanted Santana Moss but Marty wanted Gardner.  If so that was a rare one where Dan got it right.

 

He supposedly was in love with Brady Quinn but his scouts talked him out of it.

 

Tried to trade up for Mark Sanchez

 

Turned down by Cincy for 2 first rounders for Chad Johnson

 

Shanny said that Dan came into his office and told him he wants Randy Moss -- that was when Moss was a has been.  Shanny said he told him no. 

 

Tried to talk Gibbs into trading for Lance Briggs

 

Sheehan/Cooley seemed to suggest recently Archuelta was Dan's idea

And these are just the documented ones. I take Gruden's quote at face value in that at any time he could (and probably did) go into the draft room and say he wants player X. I mean he did it with Gibbs and Shanny, why wouldn't he do it with Rivera? 

 

I have no problem hoping that he's changed, but that was more of the main reason why I was so supportive of Bruce - I thought Bruce was keeping Dan out of football ops. So I took the Dan/Bruce side when Shanny would complain about things (McNabb, RG3 for example). I still blame Shanny for putting up with what he supposedly did, but if these stories are true then the man can't be controlled. We just have to hope there are people like Marvin Lewis on other teams saying things like "we can't do that to Washington"

 

I'm still watching with skepticism as the offseason approaches because this man has such a history of bad deals and bad talent evaluation that anytime I see us do something like a Sanchez trade, I'm going to think we got fleeced no matter how good the prospect is. I credit Beathard and Casserly for my love of the lower round picks, but watching this team over the past 30+ years and particularly Snyder's interest in and falling in love with these high in the draft players, and I can't really get excited for them. Like Jon Allen. I loved him pre draft and had dreams of us getting him, even did a mock where I got him. But when we got him, I knew there had to be something wrong with him. Same with Guice. This man makes it so hard to be a fan because he is like literally the invisible hand. 

 

Just like I was saying in the QB thread about coaches and notes, well scouts have notes on players too, and they know a lot more about Malcolm Kelley and Darius Guice and Dwayne Haskins and these guys with injury problems and character concerns and motivational issues - things that aren't always public in a profile on that player. So it hurts me to this day to look at Jon Allen and have to be skeptical of the pick and wonder if there are some character concerns that we don't know about, or if his dropping was truly because of the shoulder. We found out about Guice's concerns and Haskins immaturity. Its so frustrating because as much as I used to complain about this team not having scouts and a front office, now I'm forced to complain / wonder what's the point of having a front office and scouts if the owner will just override them whenever he wants. 

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1 hour ago, dyst said:

I’d imagine part of the reason Mahew and Hurney are on board is so they can use their connections and experience to try and facilitate trade in the draft.

I don't see it.  Maybe Mayhew with Stafford, yes but other than that you need to provide the dots to connect.  I say Nah.

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2 hours ago, dyst said:

I’d imagine part of the reason Mahew and Hurney are on board is so they can use their connections and experience to try and facilitate trade in the draft.


I think there’s definitely an element of that. Maybe not specific to a draft trade, but in general. Maybe we need those hires to help re-establish our profile around the league in certain areas. Repair some credibility with experienced respected front office people. Smith likely didn’t quite have that pull yet.
 

And yes, hopefully some of that helps in trade discussions, draft, moves for a QB etc.

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11 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

And these are just the documented ones. I take Gruden's quote at face value in that at any time he could (and probably did) go into the draft room and say he wants player X. I mean he did it with Gibbs and Shanny, why wouldn't he do it with Rivera? 

 

 

This has been repeated numerous times here, but Gibbs own words have contradicted that.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/joe-gibbs-told-ron-rivera-dan-snyder-was-never-interference-while-he-coached-redskins

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1 minute ago, Spearfeather said:

 

This has been repeated numerous times here, but Gibbs own words have contradicted that.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/joe-gibbs-told-ron-rivera-dan-snyder-was-never-interference-while-he-coached-redskins

 

I know its probably going to get me banned, but I don't believe Joe Gibbs. Sorry, too much evidence to the contrary. 

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1 minute ago, Thinking Skins said:

I know its probably going to get me banned, but I don't believe Joe Gibbs. Sorry, too much evidence to the contrary. 

I think the term 'interference' is open to interpretation.  To Gibbs, that could simply mean that Dan didn't force anything on him.  Which I can see being true, considering Dan being infatuated with Gibbs.  But just being real - Gibbs wasn't known to be real sharp when it came to personnel coupled with a salary cap.  I can actually see Dan and also Vinny, being a handicap to Gibbs by just letting him do whatever he wants, while also cheerleading the big, dumb FA signings.

 

So maybe not interference per se, but still bad none the less.  And I wouldn't take what Gibbs has to say to mean that Dan hasn't interfered with every other coach, except maybe Ron at this point.

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Exactly...I actually think Gibbs has such a calming and diplomatic way to him that I would believe that they all thought they were reaching a consensus. So, I interpret those comments the same way. 

 

No evidence, so take it for what it's worth, but I firmly believe that Snyder has interfered or badly influenced every coach that's been here. He just isn't any good at owning a football team. 

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34 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I think the term 'interference' is open to interpretation.  To Gibbs, that could simply mean that Dan didn't force anything on him.  Which I can see being true, considering Dan being infatuated with Gibbs.  But just being real - Gibbs wasn't known to be real sharp when it came to personnel coupled with a salary cap.  I can actually see Dan and also Vinny, being a handicap to Gibbs by just letting him do whatever he wants, while also cheerleading the big, dumb FA signings.

 

So maybe not interference per se, but still bad none the less.  And I wouldn't take what Gibbs has to say to mean that Dan hasn't interfered with every other coach, except maybe Ron at this point.

 

Yep.  I recall Gibbs told a story about something and in that mix of the story he talked about how Dan called him once about wanting Lance Briggs.  Gibbs told it in a jocular/fun way but it wasn't lost on me that Dan was asking him for a player. 

 

There is some evidence that Dan can back off at times.  Shanny's story about saying no to Dan about getting Randy Moss.  Gibbs with Briggs.  And the story about the WFT scouts talking Dan out of his man crush for Brady Quinn.  But still....

 

The story supposedly about the way to manage Dan is to make him feel vested in decisions ala steer the conversation where it feels to Dan like its his idea even though its someone's idea in reality.  Gibbs supposedly knew how to manage Dan and i'd guess Rivera has the people skills to perhaps manage him too.  

 

But Dan clearly is always going to infuse himself often with his typically stupid ideas. 

 

It's funny with all of the Dan stuff the thought if him interferring bothers me much less than the sleazy/rotten culture that he has fostered in that building.    If Dan was a fun loving, great guy, but couldn't keep his hands out of the cookie jar I could deal with that better.  But the sleaze/rotten culture is what gets me the most about him.

 

i pushed pretty hard that Bruce was Vadar to Dan being the Emperor.  So i thought and still do that Bruce had a lot to do with the rotten culture in recent years.  Still, when Dan basically put all the culture issues on Bruce when he was let go -- I thought that was way out of line.   And it convinced me Dan will never learn.  The culture is set from above.  Dan is always the #1 reason why the culture stinks.  Even for me seeing Dan putting it all on Bruce was a joke. 

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Dan is always gonna want to be in the loop on big moves.  As long as he’s simply listening and telling his thoughts rather than making decisions its a battle not worth fighting.  You’d expect the owner to want to know a bit of what is going on honestly.   Him not being fully in the loop could very well be why we’re getting such bad press FO wise.  It’s entirely possible we give him too much credit as far as knowing everything going on.  I don’t care if Ron tells Snyder he’s benching a player if he feels he should.  Given I think it was because it was Snyder’s pick but from the report it sounded like Snyder was like whatever you think is best.  I think he realizes he can’t interfere like he’s done in the past because no one will come here then.  I think in Gibbs and Ron’s case he’s being more distant because I think he realizes there’s certain people and coaches you don’t screw with.  You don’t screw with a Wsh legend and you definitely don’t screw with the only reputable coach willing to try to turn your franchise around. 

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43 minutes ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:

Dan is always gonna want to be in the loop on big moves.  As long as he’s simply listening and telling his thoughts rather than making decisions its a battle not worth fighting.  You’d expect the owner to want to know a bit of what is going on honestly.   Him not being fully in the loop could very well be why we’re getting such bad press FO wise.  It’s entirely possible we give him too much credit as far as knowing everything going on.  I don’t care if Ron tells Snyder he’s benching a player if he feels he should.  Given I think it was because it was Snyder’s pick but from the report it sounded like Snyder was like whatever you think is best.  I think he realizes he can’t interfere like he’s done in the past because no one will come here then.  I think in Gibbs and Ron’s case he’s being more distant because I think he realizes there’s certain people and coaches you don’t screw with.  You don’t screw with a Wsh legend and you definitely don’t screw with the only reputable coach willing to try to turn your franchise around. 

We've been playing the 'but this time it's different' game with Dan for over 2 decades now.  I'd caution anyone trying to convince themselves that he's actually different because of X, Y or Z.  Personally, I've come to grips with the fact that every single hire Dan makes will be burdened by something, if not many things of Dan's making.  It took hitting the absolute rock bottom and public fan revolt for him to move on from Bruce Allen to find his way to Ron Rivera.  We're still in the honeymoon phase with Ron.  And let's be realistic here, he's already had to deal with a bust QB handpicked by Dan, the PR fallout from the sleazy culture of Ashburn, the name change, and more - all pointing back to Dan.  We've been fortunate that many of the wrongdoings of the past have been brought to light and that has forced this wave of new blood and diversity into the organization.  But I'm not about to start playing the 'I think he now realizes' game, not after all this time and all that we know about who he is and how we got here.

Edited by BatteredFanSyndrome
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15 hours ago, dyst said:

I’d imagine part of the reason Mahew and Hurney are on board is so they can use their connections and experience to try and facilitate trade in the draft.

Maybe he thinks that Mayhew and Hurney are better Dan blockers.

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3 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

I know its probably going to get me banned, but I don't believe Joe Gibbs. Sorry, too much evidence to the contrary. 

Gibbs was probably a bit more resistant to Dan because Danny worshiped him. He was much more likely to ignore Dan's "advice" and get away with it or simply see the "advice" as the ravings of a fan rather than orders from the big boss. Further, one of Gibbs' greatest qualities is the ability to tell people they are wrong without making them angry.

 

Yes, Dan has made some intrusive attempts but the coaches who knew how to play politics, turned them into just that, attempts. Coaches that did not know how to play the front office game are the ones who seemed to be the most likely victim here.  SOS, Zorn and Gruden were guys who didn't know front office politics. Shott lost his political battle but if you know what was going on at the time, Dan either had to make a move or screw over someone else and lose face big-time. Turner was on thin ice himself.

Edited by Darth Tater
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2 hours ago, Darth Tater said:

Maybe he thinks that Mayhew and Hurney are better Dan blockers.


Those guys are underneath Rivera in the organizational structure, they shouldn’t really be dealing much with Snyder in the way we’re used to. This isn’t an Allen situation where the GM is the “buffer” between owner and HC. The structure is different this time around and these are Ron’s guys, not Dan’s. 

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48 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Jeff Bezos just announced he's stepping down as CEO of Amazon in the third quarter of 2021. I guess he feels he needs to have some time to focus on his new job as the upcoming owner of the the WFT. ;)

Exactly what I was thinking, he just "retired" from Amazon to free himself up for time for his other ventures.  Now he named a few of the others, but thats because he didnt want to tip his hat as to what is really going to occupy his time.

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