A New Start! (the Reboot) The Front Office, Ownership, & Coaching Staff Thread

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

What we don’t know is who had the say over the free agents and the guys that each individual part of the machine wanted to sign.

 

Hypothetically, what if Kyle Smith wanted Cam Newton and Amari Cooper for the big bucks? But Turner wanted Kyle Allen/McKissick, Rivera wanted Schweitzer and Lucas...

 

It could easily be the case that Smith was in charge of getting all the guys in here, too. Just...

 

We don’t know. And they do. 

 

It's my belief that if there was that much disagreement in terms of personnel, we would have heard about it in some form or fashion long before now. As well a Kyle would have been let go...keeping him on doesn't provide any value if his picks were drastically against what worked this past season.

[goskins10]

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I think the major difference here is obviously Hurney's age and that he's been there-done that, and yet nobody is interested.  With Kyle being young and much lesser experienced, it's a much better look for him to not be getting interviews for a GM role at this time.

 

I get that to a point, but he is not even getting mentioned as a potential anywhere. Not on any list of top potential GMsa and zero interviews - unless he got offers and turned them down. While I doubt it, to be fair it's possible. 

 

You would think he would at least be getting a sniff from someone. Again, I like Kyle. I hope he gets what he wants - whether that's go or stay. He seems like a good guy. But not losing any sleep if they do not bring him back after the draft either. 

[KDawg]

16 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

It's my belief that if there was that much disagreement in terms of personnel, we would have heard about it in some form or fashion long before now. As well a Kyle would have been let go...keeping him on doesn't provide any value if his picks were drastically against what worked this past season.

Preferring different people doesn't mean there was disagreement. 

 

Beyond that, there is some evidence it may be the case because they interviewed the scout below him for the GM spot and not him. That is pretty telling. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by KDawg

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

In the end they all work for Ron. It’s on Ron.

All of it. The set up, people behind the scenes, and the outcomes. Kyle, Mayhew, Hurney, Rodgers...set up all the alley oops for Ron to slam it down..! The Riverboat has left Shore! Lol.

[CobraCommander]

7 minutes ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

In the end they all work for Ron. It’s on Ron.

All of it. The set up, people behind the scenes, and the outcomes. Kyle, Mayhew, Hurney, Rodgers...set up all the alley oops for Ron to slam it down..! The Riverboat has left Shore! Lol.

I went to a riverboat casino in Evansville, Indiana. It never leaves the dock...just sits there filled with sad people and cigarette smoke.

[Warhead36]

18 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Preferring different people doesn't mean there was disagreement. 

 

Beyond that, there is some evidence it may be the case because they interviewed the scout below him for the GM spot and not him. That is pretty telling. 

It very well could be that Kyle just doesn't have the skillset or maybe even the temperament to be GM. But that's a Ron decision.

 

[actorguy1]

Putting together Chris Russell's and John Keim's latest podcasts I get this: Russell said his source told him that Kyle has been butting heads with someone in the organization but it's not Rivera. Keim said that Rob Rodgers has been trying to dip his toes in the player evaluation side of the org and has come up against some resistance. Perhaps that is part of the trouble.

 

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, actorguy1 said:

Putting together Chris Russell's and John Keim's latest podcasts I get this: Russell said his source told him that Kyle has been butting heads with someone in the organization but it's not Rivera. Keim said that Rob Rodgers has been trying to dip his toes in the player evaluation side of the org and has come up against some resistance. Perhaps that is part of the trouble.

 

I don't like the idea of a cap guy getting involved in personnel decisions.

[Riggo#44]

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't like the idea of a cap guy getting involved in personnel decisions.

Bruce Allen did that. Not saying Rogers is Allen, but yeah, that's concerning. I'd side with Smith on that one.

[Chris 44]

1 minute ago, Riggo#44 said:

Bruce Allen did that. Not saying Rogers is Allen, but yeah, that's concerning. I'd side with Smith on that one.

Always wondered how that plays out...personnel guy says "I want player X", Cap guy responds "cant afford player X but I can get you player Y".  Decision then gets made at the next level possibly leaving Personnel and Cap at odds over the decision?

[Riggo#44]

2 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

Always wondered how that plays out...personnel guy says "I want player X", Cap guy responds "cant afford player X but I can get you player Y".  Decision then gets made at the next level possibly leaving Personnel and Cap at odds over the decision?

 

I think that would be the normal way it works? It seems to me that if the cap guy is dipping his toe would be:

 

Smith: I want player X

Cap guy: Player Y is the better player at $X.Xm

 

That would get under my skin if I were Smith.

[Chris 44]

8 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

I think that would be the normal way it works? It seems to me that if the cap guy is dipping his toe would be:

 

Smith: I want player X

Cap guy: Player Y is the better player at $X.Xm

 

That would get under my skin if I were Smith.

Yeah I guess it would depend on the GM/Coach who makes the decision informing both parties of why he went in one direction or the other to kind of smooth things out "appreciate both inputs but in this case my gut is telling me this". Then depending on Cap guy and Personnel guys relationship/egos how that dynamic plays out? I don't know, I'm sure its probably more complicated than that.

[CobraCommander]

 

 

I'm starting to get a little worried about how many people are involved here. Last year it wasn't enough. I'm worried we are over-correcting.

[Riggo#44]

With this added information from Russell--who is usually in tune on these sort of things--that Smith is butting heads with people, I believe he's gone. And now more people are in agreement.

 

 

[dckey]

Maybe we have a better Kyle Smith in Eric Stokes????   It seems he has been the one on a path to transition from scouting to GM.  You can't just look at the draft to determine how good he has been, because Hurney had final say in Carolina.  Maybe all of there draft hits were scouted by Stokes.  Maybe he is a better talent evaluator then Kyle?  I don't know but it seems as though Ron believes this.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

@thesubmittedone and @KillBill26. I want to bring this discussion back up because as I've stated its one I've been having both here and offline for years (decades even). And killBill brings up a point that I don't think was addressed. It doesn't really apply in this situation (in DC) but in general to the coach centric model it is important. 

 

Quote

For the 8 millionth time, “Coach-centric” does not, and has not, only meant that the Coach is the top executive and reports directly to the owner. In fact, that “Football Emperor” model is actually quite different than the recent successful ones that have been termed “Coach-centric”. 
 

 

I will be honest I had never heard of the term "coach centric" until Snyder used it at that press conference. Many of my conversations have been simply on the power of the head cocah and particularly how it tends to grow as coaches win more, whether that was good or bad, etc. I had a long standing signature where I was stating my frustratiion with this team's lack of any need to address the issues in the front office. As we hired more coaches I grew more frustrated (even with Gibbs) because we still had no scouts and no front office, relying instead on Vinny and Dan. This is why I was happy with the Bruce hire, because I thought it brought some type of attention to the front office. Failure as he was, at least we can point to it and say that's Bruce's tenure. I'd like to do the same with Vinny but we have some portions where Vinny is being overruled by Dan, some where he's being overruled by Spurrier, some where he's overruled by Gibbs. Its not until 2008 that Vinny initially said he has final say but even then he said he was overruled by Dan with the drafting of Malcolm Kelly. 

 

Quote

I know you've been all over the coach centric model. One aspect that I don't think is getting enough attention is: in previous examples, was the coach centric model what actually led to success?  Or was success already attained?  Or was the power given to a coach bc the coach already had success in the league, had other options.for his next HC job, and giving him that power was necessary so that coach would agree to come to your team?

 

So you've been focusing on the current day NFL, namely Bellicheck, Reid, etc. But one of the most famous "coach centric" models is Bill Parcells. So the first question becomes do you consider his setups (both in NYG, NYJ, NE, and Dallas) coach centric models? Then there is also Mike Holmgren who won a SB with GB then left GB for Seattle and took them to a SB. We know that his team in GB was built by Ron Wolf, but when he went to Seattle he was coach and EVP/GM. So again, was this a "coach centric" model? Then there's Bill Walsh and his tenure in SF as coach and GM, 

 

I'm bringing these situations up because as pointed out in the quote and in my previous comment, I think there are two perspectives to this. From one hand, outside people like you and me and the media and fans want to know "who can I blame for this" or "who gets credit for this" or "why isn't this working". But on another level, as coaches try to implement their systems they have a vision. And as GMs build a team they have a vision. Ideally those visions overlap enough for them to build something special, but many times it does not. Sometimes it could be with one side wanting the overachieving work-a-holic and the other wanting the one with the special natural ability. 

 

I brought this up with my previous comment about Norv vs Casserly (which I did research and found that Norv actually wanted Shuler and Casserly wanted Dilfer). So there's a question of how often does a coach and gm or a coaching staff and front office butt heads and what should be the philosophy when the two sides do butt heads? Should there be a third party (ala JKC) should there a rule like Coach always over GM or GM always over Coach? 

 

The reporter from Carolina was on Galdi (or Sheehan not sure but I'm pretty sure it was Galdi) and brought up Hurney's philosophy on this situation was that this happens very rarely and that the sides should try to work it out between themselves but if they cannot it should go to the coach. I found this interesting because Hurney learned from Beathard who is most famous for what he did with Gibbs and famously left because he didn't want to give control to Gibbs. We know from the stories about Allen and Shanahan (or really any coaches under Snyder) that these can and do happen here, particularly with our QBs. 

 

The truth is that unless we know the ins and outs of the discussions on free agency and the draft we don't really know who holds the power in these organizations. In a situation like the Chiefs, I'd find it hard to believe that Brett Veach is on the same level as Andy Reid. The owner knows that Andy Reid is going to put butts in seats and be a lot more difficult to replace, so if they ever reached a stalemate where they just couldn't come to an agreement, that owner is not going to fire Reid like the Eagles fired Pederson. So while Reid doesn't have the title of GM, he knows that he has more power in his voice than his GM simply because of the success of his name. And he has to be careful with that because he needs to know that if he presses too hard on something that it may cause his GM to leave (like with Gibbs and Beathard). I'd say the same thing about the Seahawks and Carroll. 

 

And I'd say that's a similar thing with most coaches. to play on the Parcells quote, the coach is making these playoff teams (dinners) from a variety of drafts & FAs (groceries), the coaches become more valuable to the franchise, especially if some of these drafts & FAs are busts. 

 

So what I've been frustrated with since Snyder bought the team is that as much attention that goes into who's coaching the franchise, so little goes into who's buying the groceries. We have just let the HC and Vinny do it. Until Bruce where we started something, then did more with Scot M, then did more with Kyle S. But this is the first time we're seeing it addressed in a large amount of attention. We still have some basic questions like "who answers the trade questions" but like i said when Doug was promoted or when Kyle was promoted, as long as they have an answer to that question I'm happy. The more we address the front office the more relaxed I will be.

 

Time will tell if these guys are the right hires, but I'm more interested in cohesion, particularly on our early picks than any superstars. We heard both Gruden and Ron talk about getting on the same page. If people are butting heads then there's an issue with our scouting because we aren't clearly understanding / stating the problems we're seeing with people or the things we're liking about people. Hopefully this is cleaned up because any cracks in the armour are an opportunity for Dan to sneak through and insert his opinion. I still think he will because that's his nature but I digress. 

[Riggo#44]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

 

Jason Reid is still a Mike-Wilbon-Wannabe asshole, but it's nice to see other teams getting raked over the coals for a change and we get a modicum of praise.

 

Wright and Rivera have accomplished something amazing already: The WFT is no longer the most dysfunctional team in the NFL.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

15 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Jason Reid is still a Mike-Wilbon-Wannabe asshole, but it's nice to see other teams getting raked over the coals for a change and we get a modicum of praise.

 

Wright and Rivera have accomplished something amazing already: The WFT is no longer the most dysfunctional team in the NFL.

 

There are loads of dysfunctional NFL teams.  It's kind of shocking how incompetent these billionaires are at building an organization.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Sure hope Ron is right.

[Thinking Skins]

So I really wonder what the falling out with Smith was?

 

Was it his personality / charisma? Its cool to be a football nerd and all into the scouting reports, but was he able to talk to people and disagree without storming out of the room?

Was it butting heads over personnel? I've pointed out many times that a lot of the players that have been brought in have been said to be Gruden picks or picks by other coaches. So I'm left wondering who actually was Smith's pick.

Is there something else that is going to come out later? I'm sure that in the coming days/weeks/months we're going to hear a lot more about this story and why it didn't work. 

 

I think interesting is too strong of a word but I'll be following this story to see what actually comes to light in terms of what led to this decision. 

[Andre The Giant]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Skinsinparadise