A New Start! (the Reboot) The Front Office, Ownership, & Coaching Staff Thread

[Warhead36]

I liked Kyle but the fact is we as a fan base may have overrated him some. He is NOT on the same level as Kyle Shanahan or Sean McVay.

[KillBill26]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK but he wasn't GM.  Cowden wasn't a GM. He had in Tennessee the same title that Kyle did here.  Rivera saw something in him that he didn't see in Kyle for that spot.  Reading about Cowden he is a hands on people person who interacts heavily with the players. I am guessing that's important to Ron. 

 

I can't recall which reporter said it but one said they heard besides adminstrative skills he wanted a GM who can help build the culture with the team and build morale in that building.  Ron supposedly would like a partner in that.

 

If Kyle is more of a stay in the background and watch tape type of dude versus being a people skills culture building type I'd think that would be weighed by Ron.  I've heard and its not hard to see in interviews that Kyle doesn't come off like an extroverted brimming with people skills kind of guy.  It's speculation on my end but there are some bread crumbs on this.  If you watch Jason Wright his people skills just ooze out of him in seconds.

 

Ron has been around young guys who ended up stud GMs like Beane or soon to be GMs like Schoen.  I'd presume if Ron thought Kyle was a rock star in waiting GM, he'd have promoted him again.  Ron's not stupid.  If Kyle quickly emerges as the next Beane he'd look like a fool.  

 

I am not saying Ron's right.  I got no idea.  But I'll trust for now he knows what he's doing.  I recall people being skeptical about him bringing so many of his Carolina staff here but most have shown to be good in the end especially the O line and TE coach.  I'll trust Ron until he gives me a reason not to trust him. 

 

Like you, I have been a KS guy from the beginning.  I still am, and am initially not a fan of the recent front office moves.  I'm not "sky is falling", and I'm not stubborn or arrogant enough to admit that in the end I may very well be wrong and these front office moves are for the better.  As many have said, time will tell.

 

As I've said on here before, the reason my confidence in KS has grown over the years is bc whenever he gets a promotion, results seem to improve.  Drafts prior to 2017 were meh, improved in 2017-19 after his first promotion, and after his latest promotion, 2020 was the best draft we've had in years.  And I know many on here are dissecting who is a kyle pick vs a bruce pick vs a gruden pick, but it reminds me of the Alex smith debate: the sample size seems big enough to at least be able to safely say it's not a coincidence.  Alex Smith wins games, and Kyle Smith has good draft classes.

 

So putting all this together:

 

- we have had improved draft classes since 2017 promotion of KS

- Ron wants a GM who is more of a people person

- KS does not appear to be that extroverted people person, which leads you to believe that maybe he just wants to scout / break down film / analyze prospects

- KS was not getting GM interviews around the league

- there is no salary cap for front office

 

My question is: why not just give KS a nice title, and a salary that is way more than the league norm for non higher level executives, just to sit in his film room, analyze prospects, interact with the scouting dept, and set the draft board.  You can still have mayhew and hurney here, doing the wide variety of GM duties.  But you would also have KS, who has proven to be good at his niche, and don't ask him to do anything else.  If mayhew and hurney are so good with people skills and building a consensus, they should be able to handle any disagreement between KS and the rest of the FO rather smoothly when it comes time to build consensus for a draft selection when we are on the clock. 

 

And as far as overpaying KS, a quick Google search tells me an nfl gm makes anywhere between 1 and 3 million.  So even if you gave KS 3 mil a year, who cares?  You spend $200 mil year in and year out on player salaries, if you can keep a good personnel guy in tow, that is the biggest bang for your buck.  To put in perspective, there are backups / special teamers who make 3 mil a year.  If that's what it takes to keep a young up and coming personnel stud in tow, but you don't balk at spending that money for a backup lb on punt team, especially when the 3 mil for KS has no opportunity cost since there is no FO salary cap, it really makes no sense to me.

 

And i believe if you sat KS down at the beginning of the process, explained how valued he is, and how they will hire other ppl for GM to handle other responsibilities, but we have this generous title and 3 mil a year salary for you, considering he wasn't getting chased for a promotion to GM elsewhere in the league and would be getting a considerable raise, I think KS would have gladly accepted.

 

The only way this doesn't make sense if you feel KS is not responsible for the better drafting and we can do just as good or better with others, that his personality is that abrasive and you want him gone regardless, or that he wouldn't accept that deal.  I just don't believe any of those to be true.

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, KillBill26 said:

 

 

My question is: why not just give KS a nice title, and a salary that is way more than the league norm for non higher level executives, just to sit in his film room, analyze prospects, interact with the scouting dept, and set the draft board.  You can still have mayhew and hurney here, doing the wide variety of GM duties.  But you would also have KS, who has proven to be good at his niche, and don't ask him to do anything else.  If mayhew and hurney are so good with people skills and building a consensus, they should be able to handle any disagreement between KS and the rest of the FO rather smoothly when it comes time to build consensus for a draft selection when we are on the clock. 

 

 

i don't know but I've heard mixed things about Kyle and his relationship with Ron and that might have gone both ways.    Some suggested it was fine.  Some suggested it wasn't fine.  I'd guess that there were some incidents where they rubbed each other the wrong way.  I've heard Kyle is a good guy but also very prickly.   

 

I am guessing here but whose to say that Kyle didn't want to leave?

 

I don't know what went on.  But I have the strong impression it wasn't that they both loved each other but Rivera was squarely focused on Kyle's lack of experience.  I am guessing there is more.  When Russell has talked about it, he has said he has heard various things but not enough to reach a definitive conclusion.

 

Whatever is going on, I suspect there is some back story involved with Kyle that factors into the soup.  And that back story is unlikely on something simple like disagreeing on FA targets or name that run of the mill work disagreement.  I don't know but i do know that there are some rumblings about stuff -- alas the stuff hasn't been specific so I got no idea aside from some hinting going on. 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Number 44]

10 hours ago, sportsnut said:

KOC is OC of LAR.  LAC wants KOC as OC but LAR will likely block.

 

[max21]

Pretty bummed to see Kyle Smith walk just so Rivera can hire his old friends. Has Mcvay and LaFleur written all over it 

[veteranskinsfan]

51 minutes ago, max21 said:

Pretty bummed to see Kyle Smith walk just so Rivera can hire his old friends. Has Mcvay and LaFleur written all over it 

Also Shanahan on 49ers will want him too.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

3 hours ago, KillBill26 said:

As I've said on here before, the reason my confidence in KS has grown over the years is bc whenever he gets a promotion, results seem to improve.  Drafts prior to 2017 were meh, improved in 2017-19 after his first promotion, and after his latest promotion, 2020 was the best draft we've had in years.

 

I also suspect Kyle Smith has an eye for talent...but you're rewriting history a little.  You need a few years to evaluate a draft and the 2017 draft was worse than you think.  Worse than some of the years prior.

 

It can be argued that the 2014 and 2015 drafts were better, and that 2016 was close to the quality of the 2017 draft.  2018 was also worse.

 

In hindsight, 2017 netted only 2 guys who can even get on the field.  Jon Allen and Chase Roullier.  Happily, both are above average players in the NFL.  But the other 8 from that class?  4 are out of the league.  1 was cut after 2 years.  The other 3 aren't good enough to get playing time and will walk in Free Agency.

 

2018 gave us 1 above average starter, and 2 rotational depth players in Settle and Christian.  Apke is special teams only.  2 others are on different teams.  And the last 2 are out of the league already.

 

2019 is looking much better, and it's too early to judge but so far it's 3 starters and 1 rotational depth guy.

2020 is also looking good, but it's way too early to tell much of anything.  So far we're looking at 3 starters and maybe 2-3 depth guys.  As that draft class plays more, we'll see if the depth players become starters or fall off and get supplanted by someone else as rotational depth.

[Skinsinparadise]

58 minutes ago, max21 said:

Pretty bummed to see Kyle Smith walk just so Rivera can hire his old friends. Has Mcvay and LaFleur written all over it 

 

Not to me.  He wasn't friends with Mayhew for example.  I like Kyle but I don't see this as a setback.    Will see.

 

Not sure if Cooley is right below.  But just trying to make something out of the crumbs being thrown out there via some covering this, i am getting the impression there is likely a backstory in the mix here.  The circle of trust point in particular and by that its not that Rivera wanted a toady but i am getting the vibe there was an incident or two.  Who knows.  Maybe not.   I'd bet we will find out eventually. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Blanka]

 

I’m really disappointed Kyle is leaving but at the same time intrigued on what kind of scouting staff will be assembled.

 

For all the flack Hurney gets he clearly has an eye for front office talent (Beane, Schoen, Cowden). Stokes seem to have a good resume as well.

 

So it’s kinda bittersweet because I really believe in Kyle’s ability from what we know but I’m optimistic on what’s to come.

[KillBill26]

20 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

I also suspect Kyle Smith has an eye for talent...but you're rewriting history a little.  You need a few years to evaluate a draft and the 2017 draft was worse than you think.  Worse than some of the years prior.

 

It can be argued that the 2014 and 2015 drafts were better, and that 2016 was close to the quality of the 2017 draft.  2018 was also worse.

 

In hindsight, 2017 netted only 2 guys who can even get on the field.  Jon Allen and Chase Roullier.  Happily, both are above average players in the NFL.  But the other 8 from that class?  4 are out of the league.  1 was cut after 2 years.  The other 3 aren't good enough to get playing time and will walk in Free Agency.

 

2018 gave us 1 above average starter, and 2 rotational depth players in Settle and Christian.  Apke is special teams only.  2 others are on different teams.  And the last 2 are out of the league already.

 

2019 is looking much better, and it's too early to judge but so far it's 3 starters and 1 rotational depth guy.

2020 is also looking good, but it's way too early to tell much of anything.  So far we're looking at 3 starters and maybe 2-3 depth guys.  As that draft class plays more, we'll see if the depth players become starters or fall off and get supplanted by someone else as rotational depth.

You make some valid points, but Im pretty confident in saying 2019 and 2020 were our best drafts of that whole stretch (2015 being on par as well), even with the jury still out on several players.   Also keep in mind that snyder forced the DH pick, which KS adamently opposed, would have given him 2 more top 40 picks, which would've made the classes even better.

 

And KS is a young guy, with the last 2 drafts being the best, I think it was clear he is ascending.  And they essentially replaced him with older guys who have proven to be nothing special as far as personnel. 

 

I think there is enough evidence (strictly personnel, potential personality issues not withstanding) that KS has had success and is improving as time goes on.  So for the skins to decide to let this young guy who has drafted well and is getting better, let's force him out, doesn't seem like our best move.  I wish they found a way to keep KS in the fold.   

 

And as far as cooley saying Ron wants to get rid of anyone with ties to the bruce allen era, that's just plain dumb.  Unless KS was acting in a sleazy, boneheaded way, which we have no reason to believe he was.  Should we let scherff walk and get rid of mclaurin, sweat, allen, ion, etc.  They were here when BA was, and we gotta start fresh!!  Ridiculousness.

Edited January 23, 2021 by KillBill26

[Thinking Skins]

4 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I liked Kyle but the fact is we as a fan base may have overrated him some. He is NOT on the same level as Kyle Shanahan or Sean McVay.

I'll say that as much as i am a front office guy, i don't think any front office guy unless it's a Ron Wolf or Bill Polian is on the level of a really good coach. For as good as Kyle or some of the others are, they still need a coach who can put their guys on the field in the right system and connect with them. 

 

I mean Cam Sims is looking like a good UDFA signing right now but remember other guys like Davis or Cobbs. We thought highly of them and they've done nothing. So is Sims more on Kyle for picking him out Rivera for developing him and having faith in him and playing him through drops? 

 

It's also a potential knock against Kyle that our WRs were bad enough that Sims was starting in the first place because it shows that we had done little to address it other than gamble with lower round guys. 

[KillBill26]

3 hours ago, Blanka said:

 

I’m really disappointed Kyle is leaving but at the same time intrigued on what kind of scouting staff will be assembled.

 

For all the flack Hurney gets he clearly has an eye for front office talent (Beane, Schoen, Cowden). Stokes seem to have a good resume as well.

 

So it’s kinda bittersweet because I really believe in Kyle’s ability from what we know but I’m optimistic on what’s to come.

Great point on hurney, that's what I'm trying to get excited about.  Hopefully he finds and mentors the next young personnel stud, and then these changes will all be for the better.

 

Another thing I like about the recent hires is, like Ron, they seem to be well-respected people who carry themselves well.  People who are easy to root for, and people you can be glad they represent your team.  Such a contrast from the BA days.  I liked SM too, but he didn't really handle himself well while here either.

Edited January 23, 2021 by KillBill26

[Thinking Skins]

31 minutes ago, Blanka said:

 

I’m really disappointed Kyle is leaving but at the same time intrigued on what kind of scouting staff will be assembled.

 

For all the flack Hurney gets he clearly has an eye for front office talent (Beane, Schoen, Cowden). Stokes seem to have a good resume as well.

 

So it’s kinda bittersweet because I really believe in Kyle’s ability from what we know but I’m optimistic on what’s to come.

Aside from this, the fact that he has relationships with these guys and I'm guessing others gives me optimism that we could know about potential trades and if there is a dumb GM like Bill O Brien was, he'll contact us first instead of just learning about it in the paper. 

[NoVaSkins21]

Same situation as Kevin O'Connell last year.  Another fan favorite in Smith moving on and Rivera bring on of his guys into the building.  Just hoping it doesn't come back to bite them in the end.  

[Fresh8686]

Glad to see Tim Gribbles got a promotion to director of college personnel and we’re keeping him. Kyle Smith spoke highly of his contributions to the draft early last year and was a big part of our past success. 
 

[Thinking Skins]

 

 

I'm glad to hear this. It bothered me that only one scout was getting praise. At one time it was Scott Campbell. Now it's Kyle Smith. Hopefully we can have a larger set of people who are bringing in good reports on players from across the nation. 

[Burgundy Yoda]

Far too many changes incoming when the draft is essentially 90 days out. This offseason has me a lot less optimistic now than I was a month ago. 

 

We are getting rid of the guy who stood up to Dan saying Haskins sucks and is a terrible pick. He has an eye for talent, that much is obvious. Im getting really tired of this team letting young talent walk out the door.

Edited January 23, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

45 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Far too many changes incoming when the draft is essentially 90 days out. This offseason has me a lot less optimistic now than I was a month ago. 

 

Senior Bowl hasn't happened, Medicals haven't come in, Pro Days haven't happened, Interviews haven't happened.  The only thing that's happened is the college season has finished.  His work product is still there.  But if somebody else hires Kyle Smith, they'll have no indication of the team's Big Board, as it'll change more once you have medicals/interviews/athletic testing/etc.

 

This is around the period of time where Boards start shifting radically.  Check out DJ's latest mock, a lot of movement.  Parsons went from a Top 5 pick to mid-1st round, and possibly the 2nd rated LB.  The Boards are going to keep shifting too.  There's still a lot of information teams don't have yet.

 

Quote

We are getting rid of the guy who stood up to Dan saying Haskins sucks and is a terrible pick. He has an eye for talent, that much is obvious. Im getting really tired of this team letting young talent walk out the door.

 

In fairness, it sounds like most did it at one point or another.  They at least talked Dan out of trading up for Haskins.  From that news bit, Kyle Smith was the guy who did the last ditch effort to convince Dan Snyder out of taking Haskins the day of the draft.  I believe others (besides Bruce Allen and Doug Williams) had their own soap box moments prior to the draft.

 

It's not like Kyle Smith was a genius in this regard.  Most inside the organization as well as outside the organization thought Haskins wasn't a 1st round pick.  He gets credit for being right...but the average personnel evaluator in the NFL was also right too.

Edited January 23, 2021 by Alcoholic Zebra

[dyst]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Bruce 100% shook hands with Snyder so hopefully Dan is next. 

Edited January 23, 2021 by dyst

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, dyst said:

Bruce 100% shook hands with Snyder so hopefully Dan is next. 

 

I am with you on that one.

 

I just listened to Keim's podcast, he also said the Bruce Allen connection is one of the things he heard.  It's hard for me to believe that the guilt by association is that simple -- I'd presume there is something specific to the old culture or something that didn't jive with Ron.  But I got no idea, just guessing.   The Bruce Allen association stuff seems so vague to me.  Keim didn't have anything specific aside from referring to Kyle's strong personality and relative inexperience might have been factors.  But the first thing he said was the Bruce association.  But he didn't paint it as anything dramatic, he said in a vague and benign way.  

Edited January 23, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

What about Doug Williams?

 

I realize it seems he’s been moved to the basement with a red stapler.  But he’s still an exec for the org and was more than just shaking hands with Bruce.

 

 

[CobraCommander]

14 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

What about Doug Williams?

 

I realize it seems he’s been moved to the basement with a red stapler.  But he’s still an exec for the org and was more than just shaking hands with Bruce.

 

 

I'm convinced the only reason he's still here is because he won a superbowl with the team. If his connections stopped at the Buccaneers and Bruce Allen he would've been sent packing last year. Snyder won't fire him.

[KillBill26]

21 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

What about Doug Williams?

 

I realize it seems he’s been moved to the basement with a red stapler.  But he’s still an exec for the org and was more than just shaking hands with Bruce.

 

 

DW high character was well established before brucifer.   A younger, potentially impressionable employee could get spoiled by the rottenness, but if DW is gone, it has nothing to do with him being here alongside BA.

[BurgundyBooger]

56 minutes ago, dyst said:

Bruce 100% shook hands with Snyder so hopefully Dan is next. 

God, I only wish.

 

Bruce Allen was just a symptom of what was wrong with this team.

Edited January 23, 2021 by BurgundyBooger

[Burgold]

I'm not sure that Kyle Smith being gone has that much to do with Bruce Allen stink. The argument that Kyle failed to step up while Ron was dealing with cancer resonates somewhat, but I think it's simpler than that.

 

Kyle saw the writing on the wall. He was not wanted here. He was not interviewed for the GM job and his star was not going to rise higher during his tenure here. It's likely that good drafts will be attributed to Mayhew/Hurney and not him. So, Kyle had to hit the road. Staying put would be moving backwards.