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A New Start! (the Reboot) The Front Office, Ownership, & Coaching Staff Thread


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6 minutes ago, KillBill26 said:

@thesubmittedone

 

So Snyder does his 5 minutes of homework and sees how successful teams have coach-centric models.  However, it's not those coach-centric models that necessarily propelled these teams to success.  It's the fact that these teams had success, or the coach had a strong reputation and they were given that power to make the hire.

 

 

Good post...reminds me of a macro example of that stat people like to cite regarding running the football and winning. "Teams who have more than 25+ carries win XX% of the time" Is that because running leads to success or is that because teams generally run the ball more when they are winning or tied? If it was such a guarantee, then teams would hand off for the first 25 plays of every game and just ride the statistic to an 11-5 season. 

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11 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Good post...reminds me of a macro example of that stat people like to cite regarding running the football and winning. "Teams who have more than 25+ carries win XX% of the time" Is that because running leads to success or is that because teams generally run the ball more when they are winning or tied? If it was such a guarantee, then teams would hand off for the first 25 plays of every game and just ride the statistic to an 11-5 season. 

That's a great parallel.

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So Hurney as GM seems clear.

 

Kyle Smith and Martin Mayhew were both titled VP of Player Personnel.

 

Doug Williams was the Senior VP of Player Personnel (prior to Ron).

 

You could have Hurney GM, Mayhem Assistant GM, Smith as Senior VP of Player Personnel.

 

All assuming that they want all 3.  Now does this mean it makes sense?  Not at all.  But this would be a way every one gets something raise wise if they want all 3 to stay.

 

There was a mention that Ron saw the FO as barren.  This would significantly increase experience.

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1 hour ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Could just be because the team facility is closed for the rest of the week due to Covid and hurney/mayhew can’t go to the facility to sign and make it official until next week when it’s open again. 

Could be.  :)

 

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1 hour ago, jsharrin55 said:

 

Not to mention he drafted Ebron who wasn't a bust (just an overdraft).  Depending on team needs (and I'm not going back to understand the 2014 Lions) it's not like we're talking historic failure at that pick either.

 

What is disappointing on that pick is that Mayhew and team missed on character as that has been one of Ebron's stumbling blocks in the NFL. If you look back at that draft, the only other player Detroit drafted who has been a solid player is Kyle Van Noy and that was only when he got to the Patriots

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56 minutes ago, method man said:

 

What is disappointing on that pick is that Mayhew and team missed on character as that has been one of Ebron's stumbling blocks in the NFL. If you look back at that draft, the only other player Detroit drafted who has been a solid player is Kyle Van Noy and that was only when he got to the Patriots


Yeah Suh was also among his picks.

 

Sometimes here people want talent even if not choir boys.  It could be part of how the collective worked in Detroit.

 

I’d like to think Rivera has a higher focus on character and hopefully that impacts the big board evaluation.  Idk, but one can hope.

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No CFB coach who values 4 and 5 star recruits will ever sell their prospects as a problem.  No prospect who values accomplishing their dream will ever interview as anything other than an Eagle Scout.  That being said, there are always stories on some knuckleheaded guys (failed drug tests...DV), but the NFL is a place for redemption.  The list is long of prospects, who were otherwise great citizens, who go crazy after getting the money and the attention that goes with it.

 

All I'm saying is that this is all a crazy crap shoot... especially guys who aren't end of CFB season award winners or go to mid-tier schools.  You do your due diligence and hold your nose.

 

I do not understand all of the negativity behind the front office hires. Riverboat Ron has earned all of my trust after persevering through EVERYTHING and getting us to the playoffs.  Hell, if he signed Daffy Duck to be QB coach I'd immediately think that ol' DD was a guru who got stuck making bad cartoons.   

 

Cheer up.  2021 comes with higher expectations and a schedule that would make our last Super Bowl team demure.  Enjoy being a WFT fan.  

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4 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

This is a sensitive subject and I can't really comment on this further without really getting into a bunch of what ifs and hypotheticals that aren't fair to sexual harrassment victims or to Kyle Smith and since I don't want to disrespect either side of this, I'm not going to say what should have happened. But I don't want to dismiss the possibility of there being more to this than we know. 

Kyle is basically new to the building. Most of what he did in his position before he got promoted required him to be on the road. Just my 2 cents. Either way, you're right, it is a sensitive subject that should be left alone until the facts come out. 

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I heard a few radio host talking about how Eric Stokes was interviewed and not Kyle. Well Stokes is a former pro football player (which Ron seems to like) and at least has assistant GM under his belt. He also did a pretty good job helping the Seahawks pick some solid lower round picks (Earl Thomas, Chancellor, Sherman and Wagner). He didn't get chosen, but I think he's a solid guy on our staff as director of pro personnel. But again, I really think Ron is looking to structure the GM and VP of player personnel positions separate but collaborative. I don't think there will be a power issue like we're used to. Ultimately you'll have the guy Ron wants. But unlike the past where guys were getting drafted because of the owner's desire, a coach (Gruden) watching one game and deciding he wanted Perine or a youtube clip of Doctson making a couple 50/50 catches, you'll have solid evaluation and reports from Kyle, his team (Stokes) and Hurney (maybe even Mayhew). Guys that know football, sitting in a room together picking quality football players. Everybody has strengths and weaknesses. If Hurney is not good at picking late rounders, you've got Kyle and Stokes. I'm good. 

 

 

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Talk about diversity. We got a Black team president, Black GM, Latino Head Coach and Latino Defensive Coordinator. Now just need some Indians / South Asians to represent my people :D 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, joeken24 said:

Kyle is basically new to the building. Most of what he did in his position before he got promoted required him to be on the road. Just my 2 cents. Either way, you're right, it is a sensitive subject that should be left alone until the facts come out. 

In the Kyle being new, I'm also looking at the main contributions and wondering how many are Kyle guys. SDH was cut. Was Curl. Was Reaves? The better OL were all free agents which he gave credit to the ol coach. Thomas goes to the TE coach. The QBs go to Turner. The backup TEs were brought in from Carolina other than Sprinkle. 

 

I really wonder if Smith just wasn't finding Ron type guys. And honestly looking back I wonder if the Guice pick and the controversy both from injury and from off the field is looking bad on him. I'd guess the Love pick too. 

This Mayhew news is big. Chris Russell was announcing it this morning but as a possibility not as a fact. This makes more sense for the Smith fans though. 

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30 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

Talk about diversity. We got a Black team president, Black GM, Latino Head Coach and Latino Defensive Coordinator. Now just need some Indians / South Asians to represent my people :D 

 

 


I’m hoping we’re hiring based on their qualities and ability to do their job and not mainly for that reason.  

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So San Fran gets two 3rd comp picks..that is the dumbest **** i have heard..It should be Washington getting two 3rd comp picks for hiring a minority as GM.

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7 minutes ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:


I’m hoping we’re hiring based on their qualities and ability to do their job and not mainly for that reason.  

 

Rivera knows his head is on the line in 2-3 years if he doesn't get the job done. Trust me these hires are being made because he trusts them to execute their duties. 

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4 hours ago, KillBill26 said:

 

@thesubmittedone

 

I know you've been all over the coach centric model. One aspect that I don't think is getting enough attention is: in previous examples, was the coach centric model what actually led to success?  Or was success already attained?  Or was the power given to a coach bc the coach already had success in the league, had other options.for his next HC job, and giving him that power was necessary so that coach would agree to come to your team?

 


Man, I just want to say thank you for this. This is where these discussions should go and not the usual where people get all defensive and pissed that it’s not just what they want to hear. So, again, thank you for this. 
 

You’ve got some great questions here that are hard to answer, really. It’s mostly opinion-based, but I can try to give you a portion of what I’ve learned researching the topic. 
 

First, I think it’s important we separate “Coach-centric” models into two categories, which is what I’ve been trying to get across here lately. The first is the old “Football Emperor” model where the Coach is essentially handed the keys to the empire and (on paper, though of course the reality remains that the owner is still at the top) does what he wants. The second type is what we’ve seen recently from teams like the 49ers, Bills and Chiefs that has had success, where the Coach is hired first and leads or significantly impacts the hiring process of the GM, but the structure ends with the two positions equal in rank and having power over their respective departments. This second model is actually more similar to a traditional “GM-centric” model than anyone thinks, the only real difference being the Coach is hired first and neither GM nor Coach is above each other in rank. 
 

I believe the main impetus for this recent approach was for teams to avoid the type of political infighting or factionalism that can occur between coaching staffs and personnel executives. I think these organizations decided they want more synergy between the two and that the best way to do it was to allow the Coach to have a major say in who his GM is with both ending up equals in rank as opposed to one being the boss of another, essentially tying them to the hip even more so than they were before. There’s a lot more to get into about that, but that’s what I think was the main reasoning behind this recent “Coach-centric”

model being implemented. 
 

The interesting thing about it is that it has worked for the most part. The problem is there are still people confusing it with the “Football Emperor” model where the Coach is essentially the top executive. The differences are important, hence, why I keep posting about it when people label what Dan did with Ron as “Coach-centric” and leave it at that. We’ve already seen media and fans mistakenly compare us to the likes of the 49ers, Bills and Chiefs, and that’s simply incorrect. 
 

4 hours ago, KillBill26 said:

You've previously stated how the Patriots are the only true example of a coach centric organization.  And as you mentioned their success was largely stemming from having the greatest quarterback of all time who also didn't push for market value in his contracts because his rich supermodel wife made even more money than he did.  We all know that belichick is awesome as a strategist and a defensive mind, but was pretty terrible with drafting. 


Well, to be more accurate, I’ve stated that the Patriots are the only example of a sustainably successful franchise that has employed the “HC as Football Emperor” model. Like I’ve said, while technically correct on a surface-level to label it “Coach-centric”, I think it’s important to differentiate between that model and the model that’s been recently proven to be successful as employed by teams like the 49ers, Bills, and Chiefs. 
 

So with that out of the way and focusing more on your thoughts, the Patriots model has been a failure virtually anywhere else it’s been implemented, including when previously implemented by Dan. The most recent example of that model failing miserably is with the Texans and Bill O’Brien. 
 

But you’re absolutely spot on about Tom Brady and how he essentially made that model work. I’ve detailed this opinion myself multiple times before (click here and especially here for some posts that go into that in great detail) and this season has only provided more evidence of it. 
 

4 hours ago, KillBill26 said:

So Snyder does his 5 minutes of homework and sees how successful teams have coach-centric models.  However, it's not those coach-centric models that necessarily propelled these teams to success.  It's the fact that these teams had success, or the coach had a strong reputation and they were given that power to make the hire.


So I like where you’re going with this, and there’s actually a lot that can be said about the trajectory of those teams before hiring those coaches, how those coaches really benefited from the previous player-personnel acquisitions that were made before they were hired, and how really it was just some final touches and small tweaks that propelled them to major success... but that’s really another thing entirely. 

 

The focus we should have is what models we actually compare to, the pros and cons of said models, and their rate of success around the league. That’s all we can really do as fans to understand what is best and why seemingly everything Dan does fails. It’s not just luck. Certain structures work better than others. It’s the reality. 
 

So that’s why I’m making this point in differentiating Coach-centric models and trying to correct this idea that they all look the same. They don’t. One type has essentially failed every time outside of the Patriots (we could get into the Seahawks and include them here since, technically speaking, they fit that “HC as Football Emperor” model as well, but I think there are certain key aspects that separate them from the Patriots), and the other type has shown to be as successful, if not more so, than the traditional “GM-centric” model. This other type does not give the Coach final say over player-personnel and the scouting department itself, that authority still remains within the realm of the GM, it just ties these guys more to the hip since the coach either selects that guy himself or plays a major role in the hiring process. 
 

A little side note; it’s important to know that there’s a difference between the pre-salary cap era and the post-salary cap era. When the salary cap was instituted, it only heightened the impact of resource management at the pro level, which only elevated the importance of personnel executives. The “HC as Football Emperor” model was actually fine pre-salary cap, but the resource management factors that got introduced with the salary cap changed that dichotomy very quickly. 
 

4 hours ago, KillBill26 said:

Has Ron Rivera really shown us that level of success in this league to deserve that much power?  


That is a very legitimate question. 
 

So when Dan initially employed his version of “Coach-centric”, he followed the Patriots blueprint (of which others at the time like the Raiders and Texans were following). The same blueprint he’s implemented before with Marty, Gibbs, and Shanny. This isn’t actually new for Dan. And I’d argue NO Coach should really be given that power, successful or not. It’s just not their realm. If it is and they’re really that good at it, then make them Team President or CEO and have them hire a coaching staff and GM so they can focus on that alone. 
 

So that brings us to Ron. I know this was kind of your main point and I’ve been skirting around that, so I hope you’ve stuck with me up until now. My original issue with the whole thing. I think Ron is a very good coach. I love his character and integrity. Now, we know very well that a good coach does NOT make for a good executive. And when he was originally hired, I repeatedly stated that it was too much on his plate and one of the reasons this model never works. One could argue that he had shown upper management or executive-type skills during his tenure with the Panthers, but the issue still remained that he’s going to have to do that AND be a coach. We hadn’t seen that from him before and we know this model fails virtually every time it’s been attempted in the salary cap era. His greatest success came in a traditional structure with a GM above him. 
 

So, yeah. To say it was concerning would be an understatement. 
 

The good news is that he seemingly quickly realized this issue and has been trying to add to the Front Office, never mind when he hired Wright to be Team President and focus on the business side (he mentioned how, after the whole sex scandal stuff started coming out, he realized he needed more help because he was the lone voice there and he got complaints that he didn’t address the entire organization but only addressed the scouts, coaches and players). 
 

So he’s trying. That’s a positive. But this is where we’re at right now when judging the entire hiring process that has just occurred. Like I said, I don’t blame him for wanting guys he knows he can trust, but it’s a very legit question to ask whether he’s given up too much in terms of competency and expertise for that. I sincerely believe we couldn’t get people like Cowden or Schoen here because of the lack of autonomy they’d have over their respective departments. Those guys can likely wait it out and get a better job for themselves where they can implement their vision in terms of player personnel as opposed to someone else’s. 
 

I’m hoping Mayhew is the one that gets the GM title, as it fits him better. It’s unlikely he gets final say over the roster, or at least the 90 during the offseason, but if he does that’s even better and we’re actually structured much more like the coach-centric models that have worked recently. 

 

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1 minute ago, spjunkies said:

 

Rivera knows his head is on the line in 2-3 years if he doesn't get the job done. Trust me these hires are being made because he trusts them to execute their duties. 


My concern is some fans lately are so focused on the diversity aspect.  That’s awesome to be diverse but the biggest thing is if they are best person for the job.   I don’t care if we have a purple person with green stripes as a GM if they give us a SB roster and make things work smoothly day to day. 

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7 minutes ago, bh32 said:

So San Fran gets two 3rd comp picks..that is the dumbest **** i have heard..It should be Washington getting two 3rd comp picks for hiring a minority as GM.

I agree, that does seem backwards.

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1 minute ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:


My concern is some fans lately are so focused on the diversity aspect.  That’s awesome to be diverse but the biggest thing is if they are best person for the job.   I don’t care if we have a purple person with green stripes as a GM if they give us a SB roster and make things work smoothly day to day. 

 

Fans are going to be fans, we all are going to have different opinions. At the end of the day people in football operations don't give a **** what we think, they just want to get the job done so they won't get tossed on their ear.

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1 minute ago, thesubmittedone said:

I’m hoping Mayhew is the one that gets the GM title, as it fits him better. It’s unlikely he gets final say over the roster, or at least the 90 during the offseason, but if he does that’s even better and we’re actually structured much more like the coach-centric models that have worked recently. 


Lol, I just posted the above without seeing the news. 
 

So, yeah, Mayhew at GM is better and a step in the right direction. Let’s see if we hear anything regarding the authority that’ll come with the title. We’re inching closer to an optimal structure, but not exactly there yet. And we can certainly question if Mayhew’s resumé is better than someone like Cowden or Schoen, and/or whether guys like that wouldn’t come here because of the lack of final say... but let’s see how this goes. 

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