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FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State


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2 minutes ago, megared said:

Lol.  He was now overthrowing receivers because of 'attitude' and NOT terrible mechanics?  Slander season has begun...

 

It's all of the above, and more. Why can't you see this?  How many reports do we need of lazy work habits? Put that with his performance on the field and he doesn't deserve to start.  

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Just now, ntotoro said:

 

That was literally said absolutely nowhere.

 

His mechanics have been talked ad nauseum, dating back to OSU.  That's why his throws are erratic.

 

Who knew, all along, if he fixed his attitude his mechanics wouldn't be an issue.  His 'uncoachability' is making balls sail from his arms.

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8 minutes ago, BayouBrave86 said:

He reminded me of Cam with 1/10th the talent and no where close to the success. His sideline behavior was so tone deaf, it was scary. An absolute clown. 

 

I'm glad I'm not the only person who noticed. Sometimes I feel this fanbase is so starved for a star QB (esp after the tease that was 2012) that I'm taking crazy pills when I try to point out some of these red flags.

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Rivera gave Haskins the reigns to take the job and run with it....and he failed.  Going to Kyle Allen (and potentially/probably Alex Smith) is not some "screw you Dwayne" move, it's a move to see if he has a quaterback on the roster right now that can help the team going forward into next season.  

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2 minutes ago, megared said:

 

His mechanics have been talked ad nauseum, dating back to OSU.  That's why his throws are erratic.

 

Who knew, all along, if he fixed his attitude his mechanics wouldn't be an issue.  His 'uncoachability' is making balls sail from his arms.

 

His mechanics are the reason why is accuracy is dreadful. If he's worked on it, it doesn't show. There's really no argument for him in that case.

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Just now, megared said:

 

His mechanics have been talked ad nauseum, dating back to OSU.  That's why his throws are erratic.

 

Who knew, all along, if he fixed his attitude his mechanics wouldn't be an issue.  His 'uncoachability' is making balls sail from his arms.

 

I think you're purposely missing the point here.

 

Being uncoachable absolutely doesn't help him with his mechanics. He was drafted, with poor mechanics, because it was expected the bad habits could be corrected by NFL coaches and nearly full time attention. When the mechanics weren't fixed, now through two QB coaches, it became apparent that he either wasn't trying or he just couldn't correct them. They look almost exact step for step, as they did at Ohio State. 

 

Attitude is a reflection of a lot of this stuff. Him shrugging off Thomas Davis really irked me then and irks me more now. It was so telling of the way he's handled himself. What I wouldn't give to have a guy like Mahomes or Jackson or Rodgers around here that can play and has a great attitude about things.

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I'm too lazy to post my own thoughts today, but I wanted to highlight some really good posts on the subject, from one poster in particular (who is killing it) on another forum:

 

By e16bball:

 

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That’s probably the end of the line for me with Rivera. 

 

You just can’t let coaches make personnel decisions. That’s all there is to it. Rivera traded for Kyle Allen, who was “one of his guys” — and just as importantly, one of Turner’s guys from the only year he’s ever had a meaningful coaching role. We probably should have seen it as more of an issue at the time than we did: we joked about them valuing a terrible young QB at the same level as a good young CB, but we probably didn’t recognize that it spoke to how desperate they were to have someone they “know” in all the places of power in the organization. Allen was over there on the sidelines, knowing the offense better, being more conversant with the concepts and the verbiage, probably more likely to make the right reads right now. And Rivera just couldn’t resist.
 

There is no world in which Kyle Allen could be viewed as a better long-term prospect than Dwayne Haskins. Let’s tell his story.

This is a guy who once was a hotshot 5-star recruit. He goes to Texas A&M and loses a competition for the job with Kenny Hill. He eventually takes over the job, and does okay, but then he gets benched, possibly after an injury (and, okay, it was for Kyler Murray). He gives up on trying to beat out Kyler and transfers to Houston, where he gets handed the starting job (obviously). But he struggled there after a few games and got benched again. That time it was for Kyle Postma. Unless there are members of the Postma family on this board, I’m sure we’re all thinking the same thing (“who??”).

 

He then goes undrafted in 2018. He was rated the #11 QB in the draft by both Kiper and McShay, for reference. The Panthers cut him after training camp — per the reports at the time, he was legitimately 4th in the competition, lagging behind Taylor Heinicke and Garrett Gilbert (another “who??” seems appropriate). The latter was the noteworthy cut at the time, Allen is not even mentioned in the reports of the cuts. No one wanted him and they signed him to their PS. They then cut him from their PS, choosing to replace him with DT Kendrick Norton (cue another “who??”). He was replaceable because the Panthers had signed Connor Cook, and the beat writers at the time were surprised they’d kept Allen around that long. 

Eventually they bring him back to their PS, and when Cam gets shut down for the season, he gets bumped up to the active roster before Week 16. He comes in that week for the injured starter, Taylor Heinicke, and then gets the Week 17 start, where he played okay against the Saints’ backups. 

 

He comes into the 2019 season as the backup, and gets thrust into the starting role after Cam’s season-ending foot injury. He starts off legitimately great as the full-time starter (kind of a trend developing here). Sorta pedestrian numbers, but 4-0 with 7 TDs and 0 INTs is great work for a young QB. Then the wheels came off the cart (there’s that darned trend again). In his last 9 starts, he goes 1-8 with 10 TDs and 16 INTs (71 passer rating). He gets benched for Will Grier. Ends the season with 17 TDs, 23 turnovers (16 INTs and 7 lost fumbles), 6.6 Y/A, and a 38.3 QBR that placed him 29th out of 30 QBs, closer to #30 (Mason Rudolph) than #28. This is on a team with DJ Moore, Curtis Samuel, Greg Olsen, and of course Christian McCaffrey. 

Then they trade him here, choosing to sign Teddy Bridgewater for $20M/year to be their starter and going with Will Grier and P.J. Walker as their backups. 

 

Not much more to add to the story, except to say that I bolded all the QBs that teams have chosen over Allen throughout his young college/pro career. These are people who saw him, knew him, coached him — and decided they wanted someone else. And now Ron Rivera has decided that 4 games, with no offseason and no preseason, is enough to choose this guy over Dwayne Haskins. Bit of a head scratcher.

 

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And in response to the overall sentiment of your post, I’m not really even defending Haskins specifically. I’ve been quite critical of his play thus far this season. What I’m defending is the concept of giving a young QB time and support once you’ve made the massive investment of a 1st round pick in him. The greatest idiocy this franchise has engaged in under Snyder is the constant churn of coaches and QBs. They never stick with one or the other long enough to actually figure out what they have and try to build something around them.

 

Use big resources to draft a QB to be the savior of a bad team. Team continues to play poorly. Fire the old coach and hire a new one to fix the QB. But that QB wasn’t hand-picked by the new coach, so he isn’t bought in and eventually cuts bait. Need a new QB, so use big resources to draft a QB to be the savior of a bad team. And the cycle all starts over again. We’ve been stuck in it for 25 years, much like Cleveland and Miami have also been.

 

At some point, you need to declare a guy OUR FRANCHISE QB™️. That needs to be understood and accepted by everyone involved. Then, as an organization, you need to devote all your energy, resources, and personnel moves to supporting that QB and developing him. This is a long process, and you need to commit to it. His status as OUR FRANCHISE QB™️ cannot be re-evaluated on a game-by-game basis, or even a month-by-month basis. He’s the guy until he has failed. Not until he’s struggling or until it looks like the scrub backup might be the better short-term play. That kind of inconsistent, destabilizing way of thinking about your QB is how you end up cycling through dozens of them as we have. 

 

 

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This speaks to why you don’t let coaches (or players) make personnel decisions.

 

It’s not because they’re dumb or selfish or don’t care. It’s because they’re too close to the games, they’re deeply involved on a daily basis in the competitive part of it, teaching and scheming and fighting and clawing to try to win every week. As a coach, you’re trying to win the next game on the schedule. You feel responsible to all the guys in the locker room to give them the best chance to win, there’s a sense of duty to them (which I know Rivera feels). 

 

But in the long haul, winning the next game is not always the franchise’s top priority. It can’t be. If you’re in charge of the franchise, you have to take a long view: what will make this the best franchise today, next year, and 5 years from now? And sometimes you have to be willing to sacrifice the present in order to boost the future. But a coach, feeling personally competitive and having to look these competitive guys in the face every day and ask for their best, can’t do that. A coach will, often unintentionally, sacrifice the future for the right now. 

There’s one coach who can do it. He’s the only one who has ever been able to do it. Nothing I’ve seen from Rivera thus far suggests he’s any different from the other coaches (better coaches, many of them) who have tried to wear both hats and failed.

 

 

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I guess I’m wondering why new coach has to equal new QB. 

 

Sean McVay didn’t have any issue coaching Jared Goff. Kevin Stefanski doesn’t seem to be bucking against coaching Baker Mayfield. Joe Judge isn’t kicking dirt on Daniel Jones. Matt Lafleur, Dan Quinn, Mike Tomlin, Jon Gruden, Adam Gase, Matt Patricia, Mike McCarthy — that’s 10 other coaches right there who are coaching QBs that predated them. Most of those guys are having a lot of success coaching “someone else’s QB.”

 

Why is Ron Rivera the only one who can’t make any meaningful commitment to trying make it work with a QB he didn’t pick? And no, making him the nominal starter for 4 games and then pulling the plug does not qualify as a meaningful commitment. 

 

 

Quote

 

Honestly, the saddest part about this is the fact that Rivera actually came out and said that they felt this move was needed because of how the other teams in the division have started. That because their chances of winning the division have increased from like 5% (estimated) to 9% (per 538), there’s no time to waste. 

 

I legitimately thought that was just people speculating about possible reasons why they’d make this move — I didn’t know the coach had actually come out and said something that stupid.

He literally said, and this is a quote: “If someone [in the division] was 4-0 or 3-1, OK. But there's a chance to win the division.” 

 

What that means is that they have altered the pre-existing plan because they perceive a better than expected chance to chase after a division crown. With what is one of the worst rosters in football. Because Philly’s offense and Dallas’s defense have started slowly in the first quarter of the season, they’ve decided to pack in the “evaluation year” and go for it with what is purportedly a win-now QB move.

 

Forget, for the moment, that they’re clearly terrible. Forget that if Rivera really believes his duty to try to help the players compete in a terrible division is so sacred, he could have used the past offseason trying to find them some actual help. Just focus on the fact that based on the outcomes of 4 weeks worth of games, our chief decision maker has concluded that we need to change course and scuttle the original plan. That is frightening. You either have a vision and a plan...or you don’t.

 

 

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One phrase often used to describe concerns over Haskins’ play is his “situational awareness” — the way a player responds to factors like the score, down-and-distance and location on the field. Rivera seemed to be irritated with Haskins after last Sunday’s loss to Baltimore, when Haskins failed to throw the ball away on a first-and-goal from the 15, instead taking an 18-yard sack that pushed Washington back to the 33-yard line.

 
 

After Haskins worked the offense to the 13, Rivera decided against kicking a field goal, saying after the game that he wanted to see how Haskins handled a fourth-down play in Washington had to score a touchdown or lose the ball on downs. Rather than throw into the end zone, he threw a short pass to a receiver who was quickly tackled.

“You have to throw that pass into the end zone,” said the person who has watched Washington practice this year. “What’s the worst that can happen? The ball is intercepted? That’s fine, they get the ball on 20 and it’s what a seven-yard difference. The thing is you have to run around, buy some time and try to make a play in the end zone.”

Both Rivera and Turner acknowledged Wednesday that Haskins hadn’t shown the growth they were looking for through four games.

 

“There’s been some mistakes that showed up that were kind of repeat-type mistakes,” Turner told reporters Wednesday. “I think that’s what really started getting Coach thinking that way. Frankly, when he brought it up, I agreed.”

 

Though Rivera tried to deny it in his Wednesday news conference, the benching could mean the end for Haskins’ starting chances in Washington. Rivera has to find the franchise’s next quarterback soon, and it’s probably not Allen, who had mixed success in Carolina, or Smith, who is 36 and coming back from a horrific leg injury that most assumed was career-ending.

By dropping Haskins behind both Allen and Smith, Rivera has ended what was supposed to be a season-long experiment after just four games. Perhaps Haskins will respond the way he did during the offseason and training camp and earn back his starting job. If not, it’s fair to wonder if he has lost his best chance to be an NFL quarterback.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/10/08/dwayne-haskins-benched-washington/

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1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

I think you're purposely missing the point here.

 

Being uncoachable absolutely doesn't help him with his mechanics. He was drafted, with poor mechanics, because it was expected the bad habits could be corrected by NFL coaches and nearly full time attention. When the mechanics weren't fixed, now through two QB coaches, it became apparent that he either wasn't trying or he just couldn't correct them. They look almost exact step for step, as they did at Ohio State. 

 

Attitude is a reflection of a lot of this stuff. Him shrugging off Thomas Davis really irked me then and irks me more now. It was so telling of the way he's handled himself. What I wouldn't give to have a guy like Mahomes or Jackson or Rodgers around here that can play and has a great attitude about things.

 

Eh, I just disagree on that entire point.  Now the story has shifting from "I wish he'd be more like A. Smith" TO "he didn't put the work in".  Those are two very different levels of effort. 

 

And for the latter, you're going to need more evidence than him 'not staying late'.  It needs to be him missing the mandatory NFLPA negotiated team activities he should be a part of. 

 

Can anyone really say definitively Haskins didn't put the work in?  We can say he didn't appear good/ready and opine he would've benefited from more work.  But he probably was going to suck regardless...

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Just now, KDawg said:

 

Attitude is a reflection of a lot of this stuff. Him shrugging off Thomas Davis really irked me then and irks me more now. It was so telling of the way he's handled himself. What I wouldn't give to have a guy like Mahomes or Jackson or Rodgers around here that can play and has a great attitude about things.

 

 

That's basic scouting and perhaps one of the reasons the football people didn't want to draft him. Urban Meyer has been pretty blunt that his leadership was not good. Attitude and work effort play into that.  You can draft a smug running back and he might end up being pretty good. With a QB it's almost always guaranteed failure.

 

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The more I learn about Dwayne behind the scenes the more I am enjoying this demotion.  Seriously am I supposed to feel badly for this entitled, immature player who is not willing to put the work in and pouts when he wasn't starting, a position he had not earned?.  Well I don't, he totally deserves to be cut out of the picture and in civilian clothes on Sundays.  

 

Again we have 2 different staffs arriving at the same conclusion. He best grow up and become a professional but some things are either in you or they are not and drive is one of those things.    

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6 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

Rivera gave Haskins the reigns to take the job and run with it....and he failed.  Going to Kyle Allen (and potentially/probably Alex Smith) is not some "screw you Dwayne" move, it's a move to see if he has a quaterback on the roster right now that can help the team going forward into next season.  

 

Exactly, I see it more as an audition to be a Fitzpatrick type of placeholder. Where if we draft a qb, we let them learn while Allen or Smith leads the team. And then hopefully we have the franchise qb we're going to develop and build around after that.

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2 minutes ago, megared said:

 

Eh, I just disagree on that entire point.  Now the story has shifting from "I wish he'd be more like A. Smith" TO "he didn't put the work in".  Those are two very different levels of effort. 

 

And for the latter, you're going to need more evidence than him 'not staying late'.  It needs to be him missing the mandatory NFLPA negotiated team activities he should be a part of. 

 

Can anyone really say definitively Haskins didn't put the work in?  We can say he didn't appear good/ready and opine he would've benefited from more work.  But he probably was going to suck regardless...

 

I'll repeat a question I had asked you earlier that you did not respond to. How many of these reports do you require?  We heard all of this last year, out of college, before Ron took over with Meyer's comments, and now all of this.  When everyone comes to the same conclusion, including 2 different staffs, I suggest you do as well. 

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1 minute ago, megared said:

 

Eh, I just disagree on that entire point.  Now the story has shifting from "I wish he'd be more like A. Smith" TO "he didn't put the work in".  Those are two very different levels of effort. 

 

And for the latter, you're going to need more evidence than him 'not staying late'.  It needs to be him missing the mandatory NFLPA negotiated team activities he should be a part of. 

 

Can anyone really say definitively Haskins didn't put the work in?  We can say he didn't appear good/ready and opine he would've benefited from more work.  But he probably was going to suck regardless...


No one can say for sure on a lot of this stuff we’re talking about. We’re not there. We only have the bits and pieces we receive from people and what we actually see visually. I know what I saw from Haskins matches the reports. So to me, that validates them. 
 

I’m not prophet. I could absolutely be reading this the wrong way. But I’ve seen it with guys I’ve coached (not NFL)... the guys who put in the time and studied and put in the time we’re usually the guys who improved. The guys who did some work but largely coasted largely stayed the same. 
 

Again, I’m not there. You’re not there. We can’t definitely state anything. Just what our own experiences have taught us.

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15 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

I'm too lazy to post my own thoughts today, but I wanted to highlight some really good posts on the subject, from one poster in particular (who is killing it) on another forum:

 

 

As for as the end of the line for that person for Rivera.  I just can't buy they were that in on Rivera from the jump.    I posted love letters on the draft thread before the draft for Guice, loved him the way some here did love Haskins when he was drafted.   Rivera cut him.  I trusted it.  It's OK.  But I am a big Rivera guy, he can cut or bench whomever the heck he chooses.

 

And as for you can't let coaches make personnel decisions.  I don't get it in this context.  The story here is you can't let the owner make personnel decisions.  An owner who has bombed again and again whenever he's interferred with personnel.    I've heard beat guys double down in the last few days that Kyle Smith wasn't a Haskins guy.   And if Kyle now is the real defacto GM, i doubt he's kicking and screaming about this.  This move shows IMO the process is healthy.   It doesn't matter to me how I feel about the player in question. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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1 minute ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I'll repeat a question I had asked you earlier that you did not respond to. How many of these reports do you require?  We heard all of this last year, out of college, before Ron took over with Meyer's comments, and now all of this.  When everyone comes to the same conclusion, including 2 different staffs, I suggest you do as well. 

 

I'm not eliminating Ron's culpability from not nipping it in the bud, if it was indeed this unbearable.  Either you believe Ron's the man in charge, or he isn't.

 

Ron could've chosen a 40 year vet, if he wanted to go in that direction.  The fact that he didn't AND he couldn't accomplish what he said he was going to do, is on him.  

 

I tend to ignore that stuff...example Cam Newton was the toast of town in NE, because everyone is shocked/impressed by his work ethic.  Like it's a surprise a guy that's lasted almost 10 years in the league, worked his way back from numerous injuries...knows how to work???

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At some point, maybe the owner will actually let the football people determine what QB should get drafted.

 

I mean, one could argue not since Gibbs signed Brunell has the coach truly been able to pick his guy. 

 

Say what you want about Jay Gruden, but didn't want Alex Smith or Haskins and had no input in either move. That's nuts.

 

And Shanny by all accounts didn't want to trade the farm for RG3. 

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1 hour ago, megared said:

There's an agenda to presenting a black QB in the NFL as lazy, entitled, uncoachable, uncooperative.  Whether it is the case or not here, really doesn't matter, because he played himself off the field, right?  So why bring it up?  If it isn't a part of your biases, why are you just dying to opine on the dude's work ethic? Because you're grasping for straws to try to communicate a dislike for the guy you can't clearly quantify.  Why it exists within you, is a question for you to answer.  
 

 

My man, I’m trying to say this as politely as possible because frankly your posts are spiraling into absurdity—but what the hell are you talking about? I not only linked you to a post where I’m on the lookout for the same behavior you allege me to be portraying here, but I already explained to you that I have no dislike for the dude at all—I’m simply talking about him as the QB of the team I root for. And I’m bringing it up because it’s not just being reported on now, but has been constantly for a year and a half since he was drafted. I’m not speculating or posting from my own opinions on the guy—I’m simply talking about reports that have been posted dozens of times from a multitude of sources. Hard to argue with when the behavior has been reported over this length of time and from this breadth of reporters. 
 

 

1 hour ago, megared said:

 

Are you really committing to only following professional athlete's that do things the ConnSKINS26 way?  Who told you your way was right?  You seem to be good at pointing out what's wrong with other people...


 

And just...what the hell are you even getting at here? Talking about wanting a QB to study film in amounts of time that satisfy his own coaches and teammates is now wanting things done “my way”? lol  you absolutely have to be trolling with this stuff. 

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1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As for as the end of the line for that person for Rivera.  I just can't buy they were that in on Rivera from the jump.    I posted love letters on the draft thread before the draft for Guice, we got him, I was thrilled, Rivera cut him.  I trusted it.  It's OK.  But I am a big Rivera guy, he can cut or bench whomever the heck he chooses.

 

And as for you can't let coaches make personnel decisions.  I don't get it in this context.  The story here is you can't let the owner make personnel decisions.  An owner who has bombed again and again whenever he's interferred with personnel.    I've heard beat guys double down in the last few days that Kyle Smith wasn't a Haskins guy.   And if Kyle now is the real defacto GM, i doubnt he's kicking and screaming about this.  This move shows IMO the process is healthy.   It doesn't matter to me how I feel about the player in question. 

 

I can vouch that he was completely on board with the Rivera hire, based on his posts earlier this year.

 

Regarding coaches making personnel decisions, his point was that coaches don't have the luxury of taking a step back to view team-building from a long-term perspective once they're in the trenches of a season.  It's easy to give lip service all off-season about how this is an "evaluation year", and thus not make any "win now" FA moves, but once the games begin, the pressure to win now from the players and fans begins to outweigh what's best for the franchise long term.  

 

You keep bringing up the fact that Kyle Smith wasn't on board with the Haskins pick.  And that's fine.  But it's also irrelevant.  Because that's the player we picked, regardless.  We wasted a 1st round pick on him, we don't have an immediate long-term replacement, so we need to see what we have in him.  At best, he turns his season around and begins playing like a bonafide franchise QB towards the end of the season.  If you still decide you don't want him, you recoup his value and trade him for a relatively high pick this offseason.  At worst, he completely tanks, and you're in position to possibly land Trevor Lawrence.

 

Regardless of whether we win the division or not, this will still be a massive mistake, as it is a move that hinders our long-term success.  A GM would be able to see that.  We don't have a GM.

 

By the way, my trust in Rivera is broken for many of the same reasons.  As you can see, I even removed my Rivera avatar. 😂

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18 minutes ago, megared said:

 

I'm not eliminating Ron's culpability from not nipping it in the bud, if it was indeed this unbearable.  Either you believe Ron's the man in charge, or he isn't.

 

Ron could've chosen a 40 year vet, if he wanted to go in that direction.  The fact that he didn't AND he couldn't accomplish what he said he was going to do, is on him.  

 

I tend to ignore that stuff...example Cam Newton was the toast of town in NE, because everyone is shocked/impressed by his work ethic.  Like it's a surprise a guy that's lasted almost 10 years in the league, worked his way back from numerous injuries...knows how to work???

 

Ron just did nip it in the bud. Yesterday. Four games is essentially a preseason. Haskins is sitting because he has shown demonstrably that he can't get it done. Is your beef with Ron for sitting him or with Ron for playing him? It seems a little Sybil to me. You can't deflect from Haskins' shortcomings into Ron. He really did give Haskins a shot and Haskins blew it. Stop trying to deflect this on to Ron or say he's being undercut. I think he really did want to see what Haskins had and Haskins wound up failing.

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  • TK changed the title to FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State
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