FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

It's not just a personnel decision.  It's the complete 180 he's taken on his 10-month approach to this season after just 4 weeks.  It was all about long-term team building and "evaluation", until he saw that the NFCE was "wide open" and now, he completely abandons his 10 month plan in order to chase a division crown that we have a less than 10% chance of attaining, according to the most recent 538 prediction model.

 

It's short-sighted, ignorant, and whatever other adjective can be used to describe such an idiotic about-face.

 

And the kicker is the fact that he used win-loss record to justify the decision, where he was the one conceding multiple games that were still winnable, bizarrely letting the clock run out, which was widely criticized league-wide.

 

 

 

 

So I gather you don't believe Cooley's take, it was my take too, which is when you bench a dude (especially one that you might want to get trade value for) you come up with a polite excuse for it, regardless of what you really feel about that player?  Rivera isn't exactly breaking ground with this approach.

 

I'd get this take if I believed this:

 

A.  Take Rivera literally, he really is torn about Haskins, a big part of him thinks he's likely the goods or its at least 50-50 but he's willing to sacrfice that to win a few more games this season.

 

Versus:  

 

B.  He and Zampese and Turner have seen enough that they don't think he's the guy and they decided to unload him in the off season.  They aren't going to undress him publicly like Jay did to RG3.  Instead they say hey we want to win some games, we want experience.  But they aren't going to tell the world they don't think Haskins has it and devalue his trade value.

 

Either point is speculation.  I see it as likely B.   So I don't take the win now that literally.  Like Cooley I just see that as soft peddling the benching as most coaches do.

 

10 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

When it comes to Kyle Smith, the point is that he is not an actual GM.  The other coaches you mentioned all had actual GMs, not "de facto" ones.  That's important, as it is an official check on the coaches' complete power over an organization.  Rivera can give as much lip service as he wants about this being a collaborative process, but the only official check on his absolute power is Snyder, who is letting him do his thing... for now.

 

 

 

 

some who cover the team have said Kyle is who Rivera leans on for personnel expertise.  So if Rivera has doubts about Haskins and Kyle doubles down on them versus defending Haskins -- then Kyle's relevancy looms pretty large.  Again there is a reason why this narrative has come up from people who cover the team this week.

 

 

 

 

[GOATFrerotte]

1 minute ago, megared said:

 

Not convinced Haskins could, or Allen can. 

 

Convinced it's going to produce some pretty unwatchable football (which BTW I had no problem enduring if the goal was to evaluate the roster).  

 

Worst case, he's bad like haskins

 

Best case, he can be the qb while we build the team and search for our franchise qb

 

Very best case, he's a franchise qb 😀

[ntotoro]

6 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

It's not just a personnel decision.  It's the complete 180 he's taken on his 10-month approach to this season after just 4 weeks.  It was all about long-term team building and "evaluation", until he saw that the NFCE was "wide open" and now, he completely abandons his 10 month plan in order to chase a division crown that we have a less than 10% chance of attaining, according to the most recent 538 prediction model.

 

It's short-sighted, ignorant, and whatever other adjective can be used to describe such an idiotic about-face.

 

And the kicker is the fact that he used our win-loss record to justify the decision, when he was the one conceding multiple games that were still winnable, bizarrely letting the clock run out, which was widely criticized league-wide.

 

When it comes to Kyle Smith, the point is that he is not an actual GM.  The other coaches you mentioned all had actual GMs, not "de facto" ones.  That's important, as it is an official check on the coaches' complete power over an organization.  Rivera can give as much lip service as he wants about this being a collaborative process, but the only official check on his absolute power is Snyder, who is letting him do his thing... for now.

 

 

 

Like I said earlier, why does "evaluation" only mean evaluating Haskins? Why not Allen? Why not any position. Four games... essentially a preseason... Haskins doesn't have it by anything measurable or immeasurable. Period. Maybe sitting and watching will help him. Up to Haskins now. When you have the opportunity to actually make a little noise, why not? Trying to win games is not mutually exclusive to building the team. I'm sure he's regretting his timeouts, especially now. Hopefully Rivera has learned from that. Hopefully Haskins will also learn.

 

He has used more than just wins and losses to explain the decision he and Turner said it was only fair to other players to try someone else. That's code. That means there's discontent in the locker room and players are grumbling.

3 minutes ago, megared said:

 

Not convinced Haskins could, or Allen can. 

 

Convinced it's going to produce some pretty unwatchable football (which BTW I had no problem enduring if the goal was to evaluate the roster).  

 

How do you know it's not? How do you know they haven't already evaluated Haskins and found him lacking? You can do that and try to win games at the same time.

[mhd24]

Just now, ntotoro said:

 

Like I said earlier, why does "evaluation" only mean evaluating Haskins? Why not Allen? Why not any position. Four games... essentially a preseason... Haskins doesn't have it by anything measurable or immeasurable. Period. Maybe sitting and watching will help him. Up to Haskins now. When you have the opportunity to actually make a little noise, why not? Trying to win games is not mutually exclusive to building the team. I'm sure he's regretting his timeouts, especially now. Hopefully Rivera has learned from that. Hopefully Haskins will also learn.

 

He has used more than just wins and losses to explain the decision he and Turner said it was only fair to other players to try someone else. That's code. That means there's discontent in the locker room and players are grumbling.

 

 

Amen.  If you can't run the offense and have to tailor it to crossers and screens like against Baltimore, its impossible to evaluate the rest of the offense.  How do we know what AGG, Wright, and Sims can do if they are handcuffed by Haskins.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

10 minutes ago, megared said:

 

You're basically saying he can't be 23, can't be himself, and everything that comes of it is his fault by not completely altering everything he does, to please some vague criticism that points to perceptions and not observable events.  But the fact of the matter is that even if he did those things, it'd never be to your liking, because you don't like the guy.  And that's fine.    

You sure are making a lot of assumptions about the poster.  There are a few guys here who never liked Haskins and never will, CONN isn't one of them.

 

Guys get drafted into this league in their early 20's all the time, some adapt and become relentless in their approach to becoming great, others tend to not do enough and things like what just happened to Dwayne happen.  By and large, QB has to be the most difficult position in all of pro sports.  It demands more time and effort than a lot of guys are really willing to put in.  That's just how it is.

[PartyPosse]

7 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

And that doesn’t mean Allen is the future at all. It just means he’s better for the wider development of the team right now.

I think that’s basically all it is. I don’t think Ron believes Kyle gives us a more realistic chance at winning but because he knows the offense better he’ll do a better job running it and allow Ron an opportunity to evaluate the other 20 something players on the offensive side for the long term.

[megared]

1 minute ago, httr2020dynasty said:

 

Worst case, he's bad like haskins

 

Best case, he can be the qb while we build the team and search for our franchise qb

 

Very best case, he's a franchise qb 😀

 

Think you might want to lower the bar there.  I seem to recall this guy making Manusky look competent...

[PartyPosse]

3 minutes ago, httr2020dynasty said:

 

Worst case, he's bad like haskins

 

Best case, he can be the qb while we build the team and search for our franchise qb

 

Very best case, he's a franchise qb 😀

If it’s number two then he actually hurts us more than helps. Getting us to 6-10 or 7-9 means we’re picking in the early teens again. We won’t find a franchise QB there.

[Riggo#44]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

What I wouldn't give to have a guy like Mahomes or Jackson or Rodgers around here that can play and has a great attitude about things.

 

Does Snyder cultivate people with horrible attitudes? Everyone that has his finger prints on it has had a terrible attitude--from Jeff George to RGIII to Haskins.

[Conn]

38 minutes ago, megared said:

 

You're basically saying he can't be 23, can't be himself, and everything that comes of it is his fault by not completely altering everything he does, to please some vague criticism that points to perceptions and not observable events. 

 

...are you high? Yes, having preternatural work ethic and ability and NOT acting like others your age is a REQUIREMENT to be a successful profession athlete, and even more so to be one of the less than 32 stable franchise QB’s in the entire world. He’s not just any 23 year old! Neither is any other 23 year old professional athlete. 

And he had an entire year and a half to realize that, and didn’t. This isn’t some concept that’s been invented in this thread. It’s universally accepted.

 

I appreciate* that the argument has shifted from “his work ethic is fine and none of your business” to “his work ethic is like that of your average 23 year old and you’re trying to steal his youth and hold him to a higher standard than your neighbor Jared from Enterprise!!” Maybe we’re getting somewhere. 
 

*note: sarcasm

 

Quote

But the fact of the matter is that even if he did those things, it'd never be to your liking, because you don't like the guy.  And that's fine.    

I have no problem with “the guy” whatsoever and in fact wish very badly that Haskins was the answer to our QB troubles. I’d love to root for him as our franchise QB if that’s what he was, we’d be lucky. 
 

Frankly, after going back and forth with you a few times here, I think you should be receiving Mod warnings for so flagrantly misrepresenting people’s posts (arguably to the level of out-and-out trolling) and for the grand craftsmanship of the straw-men you’ve lovingly erected and destroyed. 

[GOATFrerotte]

1 minute ago, megared said:

 

Think you might want to lower the bar there.  I seem to recall this guy making Manusky look competent...

 

He's an undrafted player who worked his way to backing up cam newton then went 6-7 on the field as a starter. Pretty sure he's capable of playing some NFL ball. If he learns from his mistakes in turning the ball over and holding the ball too long or taking unnecessary shots downfield he's going to be good. He can definitely make throws downfield and read a defense better than Haskins. Also he's not a statue

[ExoDus84]

44 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

This isn't some new novel concept that only affects Dwayne Haskins or Washington.  This is almost identical to the reports about Paxton Lynch and his work ethic, and the plug was pulled on him after starting 4 games.

 

I'm sure not sold on the benching of Paxton Lynch.

 

The man was tall. Tall enough to make Anthony Mix jealous. How do you bench a guy like that?

 

SMFH.

[scstand]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

B.  He and Zampese and Turner have seen enough that they don't think he's the guy and they decided to unload him in the off season.  They aren't going to undress him publicly like Jay did to RG3.  Instead they say hey we want to win some games, we want experience.  But they aren't going to tell the world they don't think Haskins has it and devalue his trade value.

pretty sure he got his burgundy pants taken away publicly yesterday!  sorry couldn't resist....

[MartinC]

15 minutes ago, Xameil said:

My apologies...I was only joking with him. I actually consider him a friend.

 

Got it - all good. Just be aware of how that kind of joke can come across in a thread like this one!

[Malapropismic Depository]

3 minutes ago, ExoDus84 said:

 

I'm sure not sold on the benching of Paxton Lynch.

 

The man was tall. Tall enough to make Anthony Mix jealous. How do you bench a guy like that?

 

SMFH.

 

Logan Thomas is only 1 inch shorter than Lynch.

Why did they ever transfer him from the QB position ?

[ExoDus84]

42 minutes ago, zskins said:

Heard on the radio today from an analyst: Haskins talks about his body fat on twitter. Who does that.

 

0% body fat. 100% BADASS.

 

 

[MartinC]

4 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Does Snyder cultivate people with horrible attitudes? Everyone that has his finger prints on it has had a terrible attitude--from Jeff George to RGIII to Haskins.

 

Culture grows top down. You get a dick as a leader and it infects the entire organization in any walk of life.

[megared]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

You sure are making a lot of assumptions about the poster.  There are a few guys here who never liked Haskins and never will, CONN isn't one of them.

 

Guys get drafted into this league in their early 20's all the time, some adapt and become relentless in their approach to becoming great, others tend to not do enough and things like what just happened to Dwayne happen.  By and large, QB has to be the most difficult position in all of pro sports.  It demands more time and effort than a lot of guys are really willing to put in.  That's just how it is.

 

My point is if you know the narrative has undertones and biases attached to it, and you don't identify with those views...then why repeat them?  His play objectively said he wasn't a good QB.  Why slander the guy's character on his way out of the door?  

 

There's many reasons why he failed.  Keying on what you have read to be other's perceptions of someone else's attitude, isn't steeped in facts.  It's like 3rd order conjecture.  It's a representation of how you feel about him, personally that the first reason you think he failed was his attitude.

 

 

[ExoDus84]

12 minutes ago, httr2020dynasty said:

 

Worst case, he's bad like haskins

 

Best case, he can be the qb while we build the team and search for our franchise qb

 

Very best case, he's a franchise qb 😀

 

Haskins had the worst QBR in the league. Honestly, what's the worst that could happen? Allen plays like Haskins? When your QB is the worst passer in the league, there's literally only one direction you can go from there.

[MartinC]

11 minutes ago, httr2020dynasty said:

 

Worst case, he's bad like haskins

 

Best case, he can be the qb while we build the team and search for our franchise qb

 

Very best case, he's a franchise qb 😀

 

There is a worst case that he is actually worse than Haskins - at least in terms of turning the ball over. Thats actually kind of what I expect - we move the ball better and look more efficient on offense but have bad turnovers that kills us. Sort of Daniel Jones esq.

 

But he could certainly exceed that floor - maybe sitting and watching again after his starts last year and being benched has helped him and he comes back better. Camp reports this year were not encouraging in that regard.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, megared said:

My point is if you know the narrative has undertones and biases attached to it, and you don't identify with those views...then why repeat them?  His play objectively said he wasn't a good QB.  Why slander the guy's character on his way out of the door?  

Because it doesn't seem to be a stretch that he's not putting in enough work given what we've seen from his play?  

 

As for narratives, as another poster posted, there are numerous articles about white QB's that don't put in the work as well.  None of which have really panned out.

[Captain Wiggles]

11 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Does Snyder cultivate people with horrible attitudes? Everyone that has his finger prints on it has had a terrible attitude--from Jeff George to RGIII to Haskins.

 

Lol Jeff George his name keeps popping up. Guy was an asshole long before he came to Washington. I remember him getting into it with June Jones during a game. Then getting cut and nobody wanted him except eventually Snyder.

 

https://apnews.com/article/0b582d8ba8de10e443753f6b4c9e4620

 

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1996-09-29-9609280325-story,amp.html

 

[HTTRDynasty]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

So I gather you don't believe Cooley's take, it was my take too, which is when you bench a dude (especially one that you might want to get trade value for) you come up with a polite excuse for it, regardless of what you really feel about that player?  Rivera isn't exactly breaking ground with this approach.

 

I'd get this take if I believed this:

 

A.  Take Rivera literally, he really is torn about Haskins, a big part of him thinks he's likely the goods or its at least 50-50 but he's willing to sacrfice that to win a few more games this season.

 

Versus:  

 

B.  He and Zampese and Turner have seen enough that they don't think he's the guy and they decided to unload him in the off season.  They aren't going to undress him publicly like Jay did to RG3.  Instead they say hey we want to win some games, we want experience.  But they aren't going to tell the world they don't think Haskins has it and devalue his trade value.

 

 

First: Haskins' trade value can't get much worse than it is right now, so that is a very poor excuse from Cooley IMO.

Second: If it is B., that's an indictment on this staff that they've "seen enough" after only 4 weeks from a QB who everyone knew was raw and would take time to develop.  And those expectations were without him being in his 3rd offense, in a COVID-shortened offseason.  

Third:  If Allen was a guy he believes in so strongly, why did he bench him last year in Carolina?  I don't think Rivera expects a signficant difference in talent with Allen taking over.  I take him at face value when he says he wants a guy who knows the system at QB, so the team can try to push for a playoff run.  That means he's doing a complete 180 on his 10-month plan, and he's sacrificing the long-term success of this franchise, to "win now" for a QB in Allen he knows is not the future.

 

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

some who cover the team have said Kyle is who Rivera leans on for personnel expertise.  So if Rivera has doubts about Haskins and Kyle doubles down on them versus defending Haskins -- then Kyle's relevancy looms pretty large.  Again there is a reason why this narrative has come up from people who cover the team this week.

 

There is a huge difference between leaning on someone for an opinion on a player, and having someone above you or beside you who is focused on the long-term view while you are mired in short-term thinking during the war of a season.  Kyle Smith does not have the luxury of focusing on the long-term, because his long-term employment and official position are still completely up in the air.  As I said, Rivera does not have that all-important check from a GM who is constantly thinking about this franchise's competitive positioning 3, 5, 7 years down the road.

[ExoDus84]

7 minutes ago, scstand said:

pretty sure he got his burgundy pants taken away publicly yesterday!  sorry couldn't resist....

 

That still shocks me. Rivera took his job, his pride, and his goddamn pants.

 

Like, yeah my boss could, at any point, fire me and take my job, and my pride would take a hit. But at least the man would leave my wardrobe alone. 😑

[megared]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Because it doesn't seem to be a stretch that he's not putting in enough work given what we've seen from his play?  

 

As for narratives, as another poster posted, there are numerous articles about white QB's that don't put in the work as well.  None of which have really panned out.

 

That's EXACTLY what conjecture is...a stretch.

 

It's convincing one's self that perceived behaviors in others is true, because you also detected it.  Despite the fact you aren't in the locker room, or have any real observations about the dude's habits.  

 

The guy played bad.  If you're fine with him playing himself off the field, do you need to present observations about your perception of his personality, as facts?