FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[HTTRDynasty]

45 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Don't get why its so hard to believe that since Dan drafted Haskins he at least wanted Rivera to give it some go.  Standig wrote about it last night in an article I posted.  If you don't want to believe that.  That's cool.  But we are all guessing.  Signing Cam would mean Haskins is out from the jump.

 

So instead of signing Cam, your best plan at QB is to trade away a 5th round pick for Allen, "give it some go" with Haskins for 4 weeks, and then what?  We know Allen isn't the long-term answer.  They think Haskins isn't the long-term answer.  So, you screw yourself over in 2020 for basically no reason, when you could have had Cam.  And then, since you don't go that route, you compound that by screwing yourself over long-term by trying to "win now" after 4 weeks of giving Haskins a "chance".  I don't get the logic.  You're screwing yourself over both short-term and long-term now.

 

If this is the route Rivera believed was a strong possibility, since he was clearly so down on Haskins from the jump, he should have just signed Cam, saved a 5th round pick, and rode the running game and the defense to a division title.  He's the final decision-maker, so he could have easily given Haskins a chance the first 4 weeks in that scenario as well, before eventually turning to Cam.

 

45 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I doubt they think they will be proven wrong.  And who the heck knows maybe they are trying to motivate Haskins.  You got me.  We are just speculating its over though I'll grant it likely is.  My point is we don't know the whole story.  We don't know the whole logic.  We can just guess.  So I am not going to condemn Rivera on speculation.  Granted if I was a big Haskins guy I'd probably be bothered by it some but I'd still trust it.  Using my Guice example.  I don't buy that Rivera has all of a sudden become dense.   He's a good coach.

 

You keep bringing up Guice, but that was a completely different situation, where he was released for off-field issues and there was no real debate around that once the full story came out.  I'm not sure who in their right mind would disagree with that decision, no matter how much they liked Guice.  That really isn't at all relevant to this discussion.

 

And, as the poster from the other forum I quoted detailed, this isn't about Rivera being "dense".  It's about him doing what almost any coach would do in terms of chasing short-term glory while sacrificing long-term sustained success.  That's why having a GM in place to check that predictable impulse is so crucial.

 

45 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

No one knows about any player but that shouldn't paralyze the decision making.  You make an educated guess.  The complete wildcard theory comes off as an optimistic take.  The idea that you got in your building a potential franchise QB, and its 50-50, etc -- I'd be surprised if that's the mindset there based on what's gone down.

 

I was just listening to Russell who said asking around people he knows in the NFL, people he talked to see Haskins at best as a streaky QB, up and down, nothing special.  And nope that's not because Russell didn't like the dude and was just hearing what he wanted to hear.  Russell was one of the guys who banged the drum for Haskins before the draft, said he was the best QB in the draft at the time.  But he's OK with being potentially wrong about it. 

 

Haskins has his critcs.  Not everyone sees him like Louis Reddick.   The guys in the building might not think much of Haskins' ceiling.  Rivera's comments about if Haskins wants to be a QB in this league doesn't scream that he sees a high ceiling for the dude.  So if you think the payoff isn't high to play out the Haskins card, then why bother?  

 

I didn't say it was 50-50 they would be proven wrong.  I said there was a chance.  And however slight that chance is, it makes far more sense, long term, to let that play out than it does to turn the keys over to Kyle Allen, for all the reasons I've already mentioned.

 

 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

49 minutes ago, KDawg said:

One was Haskins.

 

The other is Herbert?

[NickyJ]

5 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

So instead of signing Cam, your best plan at QB is to trade away a 5th round pick for Allen, "give it some go" with Haskins for 4 weeks, and then what?  We know Allen isn't the long-term answer.  They think Haskins isn't the long-term answer.  So, you screw yourself over in 2020 for basically no reason, when you could have had Cam.  And then, since you don't go that route, you compound that by screwing yourself over long-term by trying to "win now" after 4 weeks of giving Haskins a "chance".  I don't get the logic.  You're screwing yourself over both short-term and long-term now.

 

If this is the route Rivera believed was a strong possibility, since he was clearly so down on Haskins from the jump, he should have just signed Cam, saved a 5th round pick, and rode the running game and the defense to a division title.  He's the final decision-maker, so he could have easily given Haskins a chance the first 4 weeks in that scenario as well, before eventually turning to Cam.

People keep latching onto Cam, but Cam isn't the long term answer. He's a 31 year old who got benched by the coach of this team, in favor of the QB this team is now starting. Rivera didn't believe in Cam then, why are you convinced he believed in Cam during the offseason?

 

Rivera gave Haskins a chance to prove that he's our franchise QB. Haskins failed that chance. Switching to Kyle Allen isn't about saying that Kyle Allen is our franchise QB. It's saying that Kyle Allen is quite possibly better than Haskins, and that the players on the team want to actually compete.

[London Kev]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

No one played.

 

Haskins and Allen?

[Est.1974]

48 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Then why say it - what does it achieve?

I just don’t think it is intended that literally. 
 

It becomes more bizarre if it’s seen as a bridge to Alex Smith. Dump Haskins, to bring Allen in for one game, to then bring Smith in. I could see Allen getting 3 games minimum to prove himself, taking us to the bye. 

[Renegade7]

Did Haskins get reps in practice today? 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

So the Cowboys offense has been putting up points, but their O-line is just super injured.  Sooner or later it's going to tank their offense.

 

Starting RT on IR.

Starting C is missing 2-3 weeks.

And now their Starting LT, Tyron Smith, might be heading to IR.

 

Injury reports for the Cowboys, which were a presumptive favorite to win the division, must have been part of the narrative that there's a window to become competitive within the division.

[HTTRDynasty]

5 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

People keep latching onto Cam, but Cam isn't the long term answer.

 

That's the point.  We don't have a long-term answer on this roster.  And by the sound of it (based on what SIP is saying), they never expected Haskins to be the answer.  So if there are no long-term answers and the plan is to "win now", would you rather have Allen at the helm, or Cam?

 

7 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

He's a 31 year old who got benched by the coach of this team, in favor of the QB this team is now starting. Rivera didn't believe in Cam then, why are you convinced he believed in Cam during the offseason?

 

Cam was injured in a preseason game last year and was struggling with that throughout the year, and was "benched" as a result.  At no point did anyone seriously think Allen was a better player than a healthy Cam Newton.

 

9 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Rivera gave Haskins a chance to prove that he's our franchise QB. Haskins failed that chance. Switching to Kyle Allen isn't about saying that Kyle Allen is our franchise QB. It's saying that Kyle Allen is quite possibly better than Haskins, and that the players on the team want to actually compete.

 

Yes, Haskins was given a whole 4 weeks to prove he's our franchise QB.  Leaving that idiocy aside, would your rather be switching to Cam now, or Allen, with the clear goal of winning this division?

[KDawg]

8 minutes ago, London Kev said:

 

Haskins and Allen?

 

14 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

The other is Herbert?

 

Nope. Which one do you guys think is Haskins?

[mistertim]

50 minutes ago, httr2020dynasty said:

I have a feeling theres gonna be no qb controversy after sunday. Allens got this

 

I mean...that would be awesome if Allen came out and proved over the rest of the season to be the guy, but I have a hard time seeing it happen. His play last season was streaky at best. He'd look like Tom Brady one game, and then Ryan Leaf the next. I'd be relatively surprised if he ends up being the long term answer. But here's to hoping. 

[Skinsinparadise]

34 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

So instead of signing Cam, your best plan at QB is to trade away a 5th round pick for Allen, "give it some go" with Haskins for 4 weeks, and then what?  We know Allen isn't the long-term answer.  They think Haskins isn't the long-term answer.  So, you screw yourself over in 2020 for basically no reason, when you could have had Cam.  

 

We are spinning on wheels on this.  For you to keep going on this point, you don't believe that Dan pushed this on Rivera.  And dudes like Standig who cover the team are off.

 

Also you don't seem to agree there is some nuance in the evaluation where you could have a leaning in one direction yet you do want to see it play out some before making up your mind.  IMO it doesn't have to be an all or nothing drill.   And I'd add people could dismiss the work stuff to their heart's content but just about everyone who covers this team mentioned it on the off season.  It looked like he turned a corner but apparently he might have had issues with it again.  And if I were the HC that would be a big deal to me especially after in the offseason he, along with Turner and Doug really stressed work ethic in their pressers. 

 

[HTTRDynasty]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

We are spinning on wheels on this.  For you to keep going on this point, you don't believe that Dan pushed this on Rivera.  And dudes like Standig who cover the team are off.

 

Why do you keep saying this?  I've said that Rivera could have signed Cam, sat him 4 weeks, and we'd be in the same situation, except with Cam at the helm instead of Allen.  What part of that makes you think I'm saying Standig and others are off?

 

And btw, even though I don't think Standig is off, Dan can't have been pushing that hard if all he required from Rivera was 4 weeks of Haskins before he was ready to cede all control to Rivera.

[London Kev]

11 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

 

Nope. Which one do you guys think is Haskins?

 

I'm probably falling into your trap, but I think he's the first one (the bad one).

[Skinsinparadise]

39 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I didn't say it was 50-50 they would be proven wrong.  I said there was a chance.  And however slight that chance is, it makes far more sense, long term, to let that play out than it does to turn the keys over to Kyle Allen, for all the reasons I've already mentioned.

 

 

 

If the reports are true, and lets say I had issues with his work ethic, and I was upset about his agents comment and who knows what else is going on -- I am not so sure i'd double down and take a ride with Haskins through thick and thin this season if I thought the odds were against him being the guy

[NickyJ]

2 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

That's the point.  We don't have a long-term answer on this roster.  And by the sound of it (based on what SIP is saying), they never expected Haskins to be the answer.  So if there are no long-term answers and the plan is to "win now", would you rather have Allen at the helm, or Cam?

 

 

Cam was injured in a preseason game last year and was struggling with that throughout the year, and was "benched" as a result.  At no point did anyone seriously think Allen was a better player than a healthy Cam Newton.

And all through the offseason, everyone had no idea whether Cam was healthy yet or not, considering Cam hadn't been himself for 2 seasons by that point. The Patriots could afford it because they didn't have anyone lined up to be their franchise QB, they just threw pasta at the wall and hoped one of the noodles stuck. Even now, I don't know whether Cam is washed up or not. He beat the Dolphins and the Raiders. The Dolphins are trash, the Raiders are a wildcard. 2 uncertain QBs in Dwayne and Cam would be a recipe for a QB controversy that could have been avoided in what we have now if Dwayne was average instead of terrible.

 

On top of all that, I refuse to accept that anyone predicted in August that a 1-2-1 team would be leading the division. But it's there for the taking. If Rivera wants it, then by God, go and get it.

 

 

2 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Yes, Haskins was given a whole 4 weeks to prove he's our franchise QB.  Leaving that idiocy aside, would your rather be switching to Cam now, or Allen, with the clear goal of winning this division?

Winning the division now is irrelevant to the decisions made before. Nobody on the team could have or should have planned to be competing for the division. But now that we clearly are, should Rivera let the team be weighed down by a lead weight, or should he throw it off and try to swim? If he keeps the lead weight on, I guarantee he'd lose the team.

[HTTRDynasty]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If the reports are true, and lets say I had issues with his work ethic, and I was upset about his agents comment and who knows what else is going on -- I am not so sure i'd double down and take a ride with Haskins through thick and thin this season if I thought the odds were against him being the guy

 

So now we move on to heresay and rumors.  Well, not much I can add insight on there, and I won't try.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Why do you keep saying this?  I've said that Rivera could have signed Cam, sat him 4 weeks, and we'd be in the same situation, except with Cam at the helm instead of Allen.  What part of that makes you think I'm saying Standig and others are off?

 

 

Why do you keep saying this?  How the heck would Rivera sign Cam with Dan asking him to try to give it a ride this season with Haskins?

 

I'll see if I can recall when this was discussed and by which beat guy but I recall some conversation about it at the time centering on Ron knows Cam is not riding the bench and Cam's personality would quickly overshadow Haskins or something like that.

 

If you are riding with Haskins you aren't signing Cam to ride the bench.  you are signing a dude like Keenum for that. 

2 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

So now we move on to heresay and rumors.  Well, not much I can add insight on there, and I won't try.

 

So all the beat guys are making stuff up just for kicks?    Hearsay?  

[Est.1974]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

So the PR train is making sure Haskins gets the message  

 

If Smith is our starting QB some time soon, I mean wow, that’s quite the story for us at QB this year.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

13 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

 

Nope. Which one do you guys think is Haskins?

 

I kind of want to mix and match A and B for Haskins.  But leaning towards B.

 

You got me for who the other is.  Which draft class is the other from?

[NickyJ]

Just now, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

So the PR train is making sure Haskins gets the message  

 

If Smith is our starting QB some time soon, I mean wow, that’s quite the story for us at QB this year.

A head coach with cancer turns to a QB who got Theismann-ed. If the team makes the playoffs with that formula, it will be a Disney movie in 20 years, guaranteed.

[Est.1974]

1 minute ago, NickyJ said:

A head coach with cancer turns to a QB who got Theismann-ed. If the team makes the playoffs with that formula, it will be a Disney movie in 20 years, guaranteed.

If he does that with Apke at FS as well, man that would be an incredible story 

[HTTRDynasty]

1 minute ago, NickyJ said:

And all through the offseason, everyone had no idea whether Cam was healthy yet or not, considering Cam hadn't been himself for 2 seasons by that point. The Patriots could afford it because they didn't have anyone lined up to be their franchise QB, they just threw pasta at the wall and hoped one of the noodles stuck. Even now, I don't know whether Cam is washed up or not. He beat the Dolphins and the Raiders. The Dolphins are trash, the Raiders are a wildcard. 2 uncertain QBs in Dwayne and Cam would be a recipe for a QB controversy that could have been avoided in what we have now if Dwayne was average instead of terrible.

 

No other HC in the league had more access and insight into Cam's health than Rivera if he really wanted to know.  That's a weak excuse.

 

The FA market was not strong for Cam, and we easily could have gotten him at a discount to what his actual value is.  According to SIP, Rivera and co. were never Haskins believers.  We traded a 5th round pick for Allen, who was clearly here for more than just token competition for Haskins.  Instead of wasting a pick, we could have signed Cam, at a discount, and been in the mix to win the division this year.

 

Anyone who watched the games can see Cam is far from washed up btw.

 

5 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

On top of all that, I refuse to accept that anyone predicted in August that a 1-2-1 team would be leading the division. But it's there for the taking. If Rivera wants it, then by God, go and get it.

 

Winning the division now is irrelevant to the decisions made before. Nobody on the team could have or should have planned to be competing for the division. But now that we clearly are, should Rivera let the team be weighed down by a lead weight, or should he throw it off and try to swim? If he keeps the lead weight on, I guarantee he'd lose the team.

 

The NFCE has been the worst division in football for multiple years now.  I'm sure no one predicted the exact record of the team who would be leading the division, but this is the most winnable division in the league.  And we all knew that coming in.  If Rivera knew he had the capacity to give up on Haskins this quickly, he should have singed Cam, and competed for a division title in an extremely weak divison.  Now, he's stuck with a turnover-machine in Allen and a one-legged miracle in Smith.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

So the PR train is making sure Haskins gets the message  

 

If Smith is our starting QB some time soon, I mean wow, that’s quite the story for us at QB this year.

 

Yep.  

 

I think @wit33 is right, it would unite us as a fan base (mostly I think some here wouldn't like it).   It would be a fun story.  @wit33 was a bigger fan of Alex than i was.  But I've been a big fan of the dude's personality and leadership even before the injury.  I get the impression that this team is desparate for his kind of leadership so I'd enjoy seeing it go down.

 

I'll try to be open minded about Kyle Allen but I have some skepticism about him.   If Alex is his old self I think he's very likely the best QB on this roster. 

[Hooper]

Kyle Allen's time in Carolina is truly bizarre. 

 

Looked fantastic at first -- way better than Haskins ever has -- then it all went to crap.

 

Definitely a perfect team for the WTF -- I mean WFT.

 

 

[ggarriso]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 If Alex is his oldself I think he's very likely the best QB on this roster. 

 

Not to derail the DH thread, but would we be legitimately looking at the greatest comeback in sports history?