FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[RandyHolt]

To keep belaboring this, until he plays...  One camp says he needs to sit, in (large?) part because he only had one year of collegiate play. Does that imply, that sitting him for 3 years didn't develop him enough?  Yet sitting him here, WILL develop him... so sitting is good, or, wait is sitting bad.  I am confused.  Some argue just one month of sitting is good enough. Aren't we just picking numbers from a hat, he needs to watch 6 weeks, no, 4. No, 16. Lets wait for Case turnovers. Zippy FTW.

 

It all comes down to Jay's expectations of him.  If he refuses to play him until he has mastered the footwork and mechanics, then he is probably going to sit for a long time, if we use the Brady's of the league still working on their footwork into their 40's, as a measuring stick.

 

I know someone else heard Galdi this morning and he had on a guy from Action Network, about his piece: Patrick Mahomes: the Myth of sitting a first year QB.  I had scoffed at the notion Mahomes HAD to sit year one so am happy to find this article, and pointed out that they missed out on a year of production from maybe the best young QB in the game, for dirt cheap to boot. Value lost (sure, recouped by looting us, but whatevs). It is interesting to see the superbowl odds with Alex and with Mahomes.

 

I missed ~ the first half of the interview, so I missed his main points. Rest assured, he is likely on my 'just play him' side.  Random things from the interview... he pointed out That Alex in his glory 17 year, was 40th in the league in tight window throws, and then Galdi went on to say the top passing teams didn't really feature top pedigree WRs. 

 

The link below is a must read for anyone bored at work, or anyone beating the drums for him to sit because that is what had always been done.  And without even seeing him take a snap from under center for Jay.

 

My favorite is that old stiff Clark Hunt declared Alex the starter 2 months after the draft, in case you were wondering how in the world Andy Reid thought Smith was better.

 

https://www.actionnetwork.com/nfl/patrick-mahomes-kansas-city-chiefs-rookie-quarterback-analysis-2019

 

 

 

[repo_4]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

Gonna ask, and I have a sinking feeling I'm going to regret this:

 

Why, exactly, do we care what Haskins spends his money on... Why do we care if he goes broke? Why do we care if he stays rich the rest of his life?

 

It is a total non-factor for us. 

 

As fans I believe we should care about a few things: On field play, his character, and the number one rule: him not being a dick. 

 

If you're a hater, lover, neutraler, apologist, Hiram of Haskins, Keen for Keenum, Cult of Colt...

 

It frankly doesn't matter in the least, to literally any of us. 

 

I go through life working a regular job, making less in my entire LIFE than Haskins will on his actual contract. Him buying a Bentley, or a 70's shaggin' wagon is of absolutely no consequence to any of us.

 

So... why do we care what he spends his money on, and why are we offering him financial advice or posting articles about players going broke?

Let me win $8.5M in the lottery. I am buying a Bentley, immediately driving it to my bank, getting out $100k in singles and heading straight to the strip club to make it rain and chug Cristal... I'd be broke in a month and back here complaining about stupid stuff others spend their money on. LOL.

[MisterPinstripe]

Maybe we should want Dwayne to blow all his money. Then he will want to play his butt off to earn a bigger contract.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[mistertim]

I really like that youtube video...but good lord, DiNardo really needs to learn about the concept of personal space. He was practically sitting on Dwayne's lap.   

[JSSkinz]

4 hours ago, KDawg said:

So... why do we care what he spends his money on, and why are we offering him financial advice or posting articles about players going broke?

I don't understand where you are seeing anyone give financial advice, I gave an opinion and if you don't agree with it that's ok.

 

I work at a PE firm and stare at P&L's and Balance sheets all day, it's my passion and I hate seeing people piss money away, so I do care because wealth is very hard to obtain but very easy to lose and I see the good and the bad on a daily, weekly, and monthly basis.

 

I don't have anything against Haskins, he comes off as an intelligent young man and I'm 100% excited to see him play.  What's wrong with a little side discussion, do you really need to read 30 more pages questioning his footwork, lack of experience,  or if he will be the starter in week one?

 

I wish I had never made my original post, I didn't realize so many would take it personally.

 

 

[DJHJR86]

I don't care what Dwayne Haskins spends his money on.  He isn't paying my mortgage.  But I also don't care about how much of a "family oriented guy" he is.  Because I'm old enough to remember when the same things were being said about Griffin post-draft.  I'm just going to wait and see what happens with Haskins.

[redskinss]

7 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

I don't understand where you are seeing anyone give financial advice, I gave an opinion and if you don't agree with it that's ok.

 

I work at a PE firm and stare at P&L's and Balance sheets all day, it's my passion and I hate seeing people piss money away, so I do care because wealth is very hard to obtain but very easy to lose and I see the good and the bad on a daily, weekly, and monthly basis.

 

I don't have anything against Haskins, he comes off as an intelligent young man and I'm 100% excited to see him play.  What's wrong with a little side discussion, do you really need to read 30 more pages questioning his footwork, lack of experience,  or if he will be the starter in week one?

 

I wish I had never made my original post, I didn't realize so many would take it personally.

 

 

No worries, I didn't mean to suggest that a 250 thousand dollar purchase wasn't a big one and it certainly could be the beginning of a bad trend that puts him in Clinton Portis territory.

I just hate seeing someone dissected piece by piece because fans want a certain look from the quarterback especially one drafted in the first round.

 

I don't think anybody has any clue or cares about the spending habits of any of the other players we've drafted that are still on their rookie contracts.

 

 

[volsmet]

Es can get a far better coach to break down film than that old fart.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wit33]

Que the Bentley “tracker” around the city. Players will refuse riding with him out of fear of being spotted not where said to be. Reuben Foster stay away. 

[RandyHolt]

Raises Hand. Um, I would like 30 more pages of footwork scrutiny.  Bah, never mind I will go back to bean counting.

 

It sure seems like dropback footwork is a BIG part of development.  Yet when the game is on the line, every team is in gun which minimizes footwork.  Scratches head I guess it makes rhythm or some ****.   But I just don't grasp the importance of a QB being under center as the highest priority when designing an offense. Ironically, it sure seems to make their prized QBs jobs that much more difficult. With the ultra aggressive defenses now, a QB dropping back to pass is often basically being chased by a blitzer, I would say right on the QBs heels but he is sidestepping facing the sideline, and cannot literally drop back fast enough on some snaps. 

 

Sure, having a solid base and stepping into a throw is throwing 101 stuff, but when guys like Mahomes are throwing off handed taking the league by storm, it can make you wonder...

 

Or dream.

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Raises Hand. Um, I would like 30 more pages of footwork scrutiny.  Bah, never mind I will go back to bean counting.

 

It sure seems like dropback footwork is a BIG part of development.  Yet when the game is on the line, every team is in gun which minimizes footwork.  Scratches head I guess it makes rhythm or some ****.   But I just don't grasp the importance of a QB being under center as the highest priority when designing an offense. Ironically, it sure seems to make their prized QBs jobs that much more difficult. With the ultra aggressive defenses now, a QB dropping back to pass is often basically being chased by a blitzer, I would say right on the QBs heels but he is sidestepping facing the sideline, and cannot literally drop back fast enough on some snaps. 

 

Sure, having a solid base and stepping into a throw is throwing 101 stuff, but when guys like Mahomes are throwing off handed taking the league by storm, it can make you wonder...

 

Or dream.

 

To me is isn't as much about dropping back from under center (though that's certainly more important in the NFL than college) as it is the footwork in general. More specifically Dwayne's footwork is somewhat slow, his strides are overly long, and there's sometimes a disconnect between what his feet are doing and what his upper body is doing. That will cause passes to miss their target, sometimes by a pretty big margin.

 

You can see this happen multiple times when you watch his cutups. He'll make a beautiful throw on one series and then later he'll miss a guy by 5 yards on a pass very much like the first one...the main difference being that on the second pass his lower body mechanics weren't properly connected to his upper body and the result was a pass that was a duck from the get-go.

 

Making off platform throws is a great thing to be able to do, but IMO in order to do that effectively in the NFL a guy first needs to make sure his footwork and upper/lower body mechanics are on point. If you don't have that base then you don't have anything good to improvise off of that will lead to consistent results when you go off script. It's sort of like playing in a band where you improvise solos without knowing your scales and modes. Sure, for a weekend garage jam band that's fine as you can get by on ear and just having fun and recover quickly from your mistakes. But it won't work very well for you as a professional musician. 

 

It absolutely can be fixed but how long it will take really depends on the QB in question. 

[RandyHolt]

55 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

To me is isn't as much about dropping back from under center ..

 

Hey thanks for a keep it real post. Those are great observations some ahem me casually overlook, or think he can sort out on the fly. 

 

The one thing that makes me wonder if learning and perfecting all that stuff is worth it. Look at Alex Smith last year. I called him drunk Alex. Good footwork, respected vet, passes all over the place. 6-3 aside, it quickly turned into a season to forget for him.   I suspected we were in trouble when he was the only QB that couldn't torch Tampa for 400+. Yeah we won, but the 2017 KC aerial show was not to be repeated. I am not sure how his footwork was, but can only assume it was decent as he wasn't called out on it IIRC. Even if his footwork was off, then that makes me wonder further about its importance. It just seems very technical and perhaps overly complicated.  QBs are going to pass for 60% plus no matter the footwork.

 

I think getting a solid base and stepping into throws >>> sidestepping facing the sideline chin pinned to the left shoulder counting 3 5 or 7, bouncing a few times, and then getting set.  I know its all about timing but then how can QBs march down the field often with relative ease, from gun?

 

 

[Llevron]

@RandyHolt So I have been wondering this myself about drop backs. Why do it so much if its so hard and the gun works so much better? I think it has something to do with hiding your plays. The goal being to make your pass plays look like run plays or something along those lines. But im not the guy to really answer you here. There are a few floating around that can though. 

[Malapropismic Depository]

20 hours ago, ggarriso said:

From the jump I have thought Haskins had piss poor body language - was clearly not truly excited about coming here based on the non scripted footage from draft night.  Obviously the Kevin O video is highly edited but I think the most interesting moment happens around 2:30, its the only time in the video he goes to try to actually make a correction and Haskins turns away from him, does not look him in the eye and is essentially acting dismissive.  I think overall this is a kid who is acting extremely entitled for doing absolutely nothing in the NFL, will be interesting to watch it all unfold.

  

 

5 hours ago, Stadium-Armory said:

First impression is that he isn't passionate about being here. Sounds like he's saying the right things but doesn't "feel it". That said, I could be wrong and also who cares. Throw touchdown win games and be a killer. Not everyone is Fred Smoot.

 

There is something about his personality that is hard to figure out, without knowing him well, or personally.

Whether he's just real laid-back, or is he a little lethargic, or is he aloof, or un-passionate, or indifferent, or is he just shy ?

Just for whatever reason, doesn't seem super-engaging.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

41 minutes ago, Llevron said:

@RandyHolt So I have been wondering this myself about drop backs. Why do it so much if its so hard and the gun works so much better? I think it has something to do with hiding your plays. The goal being to make your pass plays look like run plays or something along those lines. But im not the guy to really answer you here. There are a few floating around that can though. 

 

It's easier to run the ball and do play action from Under Center.  If you want a versatile offense, you need to sprinkle in a bit of everything.  Some "under center" plays aren't even normal plays (quick step and throw immediate screen, or throw the ball away) but from the pre-snap alignment it counts.

 

Under Center and varied number of steps per dropback help keep Edge rushers on their toes.  The offensive tackles can block differently knowing they have ample room to guide the Edge guy around behind the QB.  Or they can entice the inside move and just bury them as they try and cross your face (Trent Williams specialty) because you know the QB is going to be further back.

 

If all you do is play from gun, and the other team is doing a great job of slowing your offense down.  Where do you go from there?

 

I like the idea of giving the defense more to think about.  Also, calling the same play from Gun and from Under Center can yield different results, or a similar successful result the defense can't key in on because "they saw it on the previous drive".

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Hey thanks for a keep it real post. Those are great observations some ahem me casually overlook, or think he can sort out on the fly. 

 

The one thing that makes me wonder if learning and perfecting all that stuff is worth it. Look at Alex Smith last year. I called him drunk Alex. Good footwork, respected vet, passes all over the place. 6-3 aside, it quickly turned into a season to forget for him.   I suspected we were in trouble when he was the only QB that couldn't torch Tampa for 400+. Yeah we won, but the 2017 KC aerial show was not to be repeated. I am not sure how his footwork was, but can only assume it was decent as he wasn't called out on it IIRC. Even if his footwork was off, then that makes me wonder further about its importance. It just seems very technical and perhaps overly complicated.  QBs are going to pass for 60% plus no matter the footwork.

 

I think getting a solid base and stepping into throws >>> sidestepping facing the sideline chin pinned to the left shoulder counting 3 5 or 7, bouncing a few times, and then getting set.  I know its all about timing but then how can QBs march down the field often with relative ease, from gun?

 

 

 

Yeah I think we'd agree about whether "perfecting" it is necessary or not. I don't think a dude needs to have Brady or Manning footwork before he can move ahead, but having a decent and consistent lower body is something I'd want to push for on a young/rookie QB before getting heavily into other stuff. I think from a general perspective the footwork leads to so many things...it's sort of like boxing in that it all starts with the feet and then moves up from there.

 

That's especially true for pure pocket passers, which is what Haskins is. A guy like Mahomes (and maybe Murray from this draft) with ridiculous natural ability and athleticism can get by doing things a bit less traditionally. Haskins simply isn't that dude. That being said, if you watch Mahomes from this year and compare it to his college tape, his footwork is much cleaner. IMO it's obvious that Reid and company worked with him quite a bit on that before sending him out there. 

 

As far as timing, from what I understand shotgun formations in the NFL have plenty of the same timing aspects as under center dropbacks do. Obviously the timing is much different as the footwork totally changes, but it's still a major aspect of it. Brady is operating in shotgun quite a bit, so did Peyton, so do other elite QBs. I seriously doubt that they take the snap and just wing it.

 

I think with this we just have to realize what kind of QB Haskins is and what he isn't. IMO to be successful in the NFL he's going to need to improve his footwork quite a bit since he's going to be operating in the pocket 90% of the time most likely. I think his college footwork would cause him problems in the league because it affects his response to pressure, his accuracy, and his timing...all three of which are much bigger factors now than they were in college. 

 

Again, I absolutely think Haskins can and probably will improve in this area. The only question is how long it will take and whether Jay, and more importantly the FO, will be patient with him if that's necessary. I hope so. But who knows, he could pick it up right off the bat and be ready day 1. We'll see...at least we have something interesting to look forward to. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Haskins film break down

 

I gotta preach it like I feel it.  I don't see the big deal here.

 

Maybe @KDawg and a few others on here can break down film like that, no one else can.  But nothing gives football fans a bigger boner than when they see someone that can identify the Sam and Mike linebackers, disguised blitz packages, figuring out if it's a zone or man coverage, stunts etc.   There's something about football players like Cooley talking shop that is like catnip to the football fan where they're all like OMG DRIVE TRIPLE RIGHT SPLIT S AWESOME I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT IS BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT BUT I AM SURE HE'S SMART.  And if it's a quarterback looking a safety off a zone coverage, just stop.  STOP.  To a football fan, a quarterback looking a defender off and then completing a pass is sexier than any Playboy centerfold.  

 

There's no doubt Haskins sounds like a smart guy, just like most other quarterbacks in the league are.  This video doesn't confirm or deny that Haskins is any better than any quarterback from Russell Wilson or Tom Brady on down to the Raiders 3rd stringer.  I'm pretty confident that any quarterback can break down film in this manner...or at least in a manner where it can impress a football fan because it's something that 95% of football fans can't repeat.  If I'm watching a baseball game, I can be like "Oh, curveball.  Slider!  Home run!"  It's relatively simple.  As much as we'd all like to understand what Haskins is talking about here on a deeper level to where we could converse with him on something like this, we just can't.  

[Malapropismic Depository]

I was just thinking and wondering if maybe it's not out of the question that Keenum gets cut at the end of camp.

We're not paying him a lot. Denver is paying half his salary. And we only have him for a one year contract. We gave up practically nothing for him.

What if Keenum stinks it up in camp, and is outplayed by a fully-recovered and healthy McCoy ?

And then Haskins is really impressive in camp. Maybe we keep Woodrum as a 3rd, or a developmental QB on the PS.

I am in no way, saying this will happen, or that it is even likely. I'm sure it's much, much less than 50%. Probably less than 10%.

I'm just saying maybe it's not outside the realm of possibility. Remember now, there's no drama. So we have to create it.

[Gibbit]

1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I gotta preach it like I feel it.  I don't see the big deal here.

 

Maybe @KDawg and a few others on here can break down film like that, no one else can.  But nothing gives football fans a bigger boner than when they see someone that can identify the Sam and Mike linebackers, disguised blitz packages, figuring out if it's a zone or man coverage, stunts etc.   There's something about football players like Cooley talking shop that is like catnip to the football fan where they're all like OMG DRIVE TRIPLE RIGHT SPLIT S AWESOME I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT IS BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT BUT I AM SURE HE'S SMART.  And if it's a quarterback looking a safety off a zone coverage, just stop.  STOP.  To a football fan, a quarterback looking a defender off and then completing a pass is sexier than any Playboy centerfold.  

 

There's no doubt Haskins sounds like a smart guy, just like most other quarterbacks in the league are.  This video doesn't confirm or deny that Haskins is any better than any quarterback from Russell Wilson or Tom Brady on down to the Raiders 3rd stringer.  I'm pretty confident that any quarterback can break down film in this manner...or at least in a manner where it can impress a football fan because it's something that 95% of football fans can't repeat.  If I'm watching a baseball game, I can be like "Oh, curveball.  Slider!  Home run!"  It's relatively simple.  As much as we'd all like to understand what Haskins is talking about here on a deeper level to where we could converse with him on something like this, we just can't.  

Can he break it down in a split second after 5 steps off the line

 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I gotta preach it like I feel it.  I don't see the big deal here.

 

Maybe @KDawg and a few others on here can break down film like that, no one else can.  But nothing gives football fans a bigger boner than when they see someone that can identify the Sam and Mike linebackers, disguised blitz packages, figuring out if it's a zone or man coverage, stunts etc.   There's something about football players like Cooley talking shop that is like catnip to the football fan where they're all like OMG DRIVE TRIPLE RIGHT SPLIT S AWESOME I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT IS BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT BUT I AM SURE HE'S SMART.  And if it's a quarterback looking a safety off a zone coverage, just stop.  STOP.  To a football fan, a quarterback looking a defender off and then completing a pass is sexier than any Playboy centerfold.  

 

There's no doubt Haskins sounds like a smart guy, just like most other quarterbacks in the league are.  This video doesn't confirm or deny that Haskins is any better than any quarterback from Russell Wilson or Tom Brady on down to the Raiders 3rd stringer.  I'm pretty confident that any quarterback can break down film in this manner...or at least in a manner where it can impress a football fan because it's something that 95% of football fans can't repeat.  If I'm watching a baseball game, I can be like "Oh, curveball.  Slider!  Home run!"  It's relatively simple.  As much as we'd all like to understand what Haskins is talking about here on a deeper level to where we could converse with him on something like this, we just can't.  

 

I think this is a fair point. Most experts speak the same language so what Haskins is saying probably seems relatively obvious to pretty much every pro QB out there. It's like a non-musician listening to a musician say "This solo sounds like D Dorian mode over a II-V-I progression". That can sound super impressive to a non-musician but any professional musician will say "duh, yeah that's a standard major jazz progression". 

 

It doesn't diminish that it's impressive for someone to have that knowledge at their fingertips, but it also doesn't necessarily mean that they're top in their field. 

[skinsfan93]

16 hours ago, Stefanskins said:

yes... bad managers of money is different than bad managers of football...if it equated at all there'd by accountants in the HoF...i wonder what Dion Sanders first bought?

What about people who don't know how to spell and form correct sentences? What’s that say about YOU as an educated fan? Oh and it’s Deon not Dion 💩

[skinsfan93]

6 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

To me is isn't as much about dropping back from under center (though that's certainly more important in the NFL than college) as it is the footwork in general. More specifically Dwayne's footwork is somewhat slow, his strides are overly long, and there's sometimes a disconnect between what his feet are doing and what his upper body is doing. That will cause passes to miss their target, sometimes by a pretty big margin.

 

You can see this happen multiple times when you watch his cutups. He'll make a beautiful throw on one series and then later he'll miss a guy by 5 yards on a pass very much like the first one...the main difference being that on the second pass his lower body mechanics weren't properly connected to his upper body and the result was a pass that was a duck from the get-go.

 

Making off platform throws is a great thing to be able to do, but IMO in order to do that effectively in the NFL a guy first needs to make sure his footwork and upper/lower body mechanics are on point. If you don't have that base then you don't have anything good to improvise off of that will lead to consistent results when you go off script. It's sort of like playing in a band where you improvise solos without knowing your scales and modes. Sure, for a weekend garage jam band that's fine as you can get by on ear and just having fun and recover quickly from your mistakes. But it won't work very well for you as a professional musician. 

 

It absolutely can be fixed but how long it will take really depends on the QB in question. 

What are you talking about? You’re comparing Haskins to Eddie Vedder? The guy hasn’t played a down in the NFL and last I saw his completion percentage last year was 70% in one of the top conferences in the country. 

 

Will Haskins need to improve on technique and his footwork? Of course but you seem to think this is uncorrectable. There’s video of rookie camp already where coaches are working on his footwork and taking snaps under center. He has OTAs and all preseason to work on it. He’s an athlete and played QB since he was 11. As far as understanding the game many talk about how he is not only book smart but football smart. He will be fine!

[volsmet]

From under center everything is more complicated, on both sides of the ball.