FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Anselmheifer]

20 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

You can hide a lot with seven and eight man coverages, but still have breakdowns if your corners can't match up.  That's my biggest fear for the season.  The OL is more important, and our inexperienced QBs and WRs and RBs aren't as good as our DLs so they won't be able to hide OL sins as well as the DL will be able to hide sins in the back 7.  But the OL is better than the secondary IMO.  Scherff is a lot better than our best DB and Rouillier and Moses are decent starters.  Fuller and Collins are the only solid starters in our secondary IMO, and that group really needs to be like six deep in high level rotation players to function well.  And i think Charles is a better prospect than any young player in our secondary.  We're pretty bad at DB.

 

We definitely need a huge upgrade in the secondary. And we could be really bad there this year. I'm not sure a rookie Chase Young and 2nd year Montez Sweat move the needle that much. I think our DL starts punching hard in 2021. 

That being said, I don't think we are necessarily that far away either. Moreau was pretty good on the outside. Fuller is obviously solid. I like Moreland's chances. We need to hit on a couple of the young guys...Moreland, Stroman, Apke, Moreau. If we can have a couple of guys break through, we are a CB1 away from being super solid in 2021.  

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

 

After this season is the year to make a decision.
 

Some have been calling for his replacement for a while, but it just didn’t make sense on many levels— After this season he will be 30 and have $9.6mil cap and a dead cap hit of “only” $1.9mil. The deal appeared structured to for next off season to be the decision year for him, which works perfectly as this year for all players is an evaluation year by Ron and company. 

 

I am somewhat neutral with a positive lean on Moses.   It's not easy to be a durable O lineman and that dude is a warrior on that front.  As a player IMO I think he's OK maybe slightly above average.  If we stumble on a good replacement, I'd be in favor of but I am not sweating it. 

 

My fear though isn't the right side of the line.  It's the left.  Hopefully Charles can stay out of trouble because i like his potential the best among our options there. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Keim article up on ESPN:

 

As Haskins lost weight and re-shaped his body, he also worked on short-area quickness via agility ropes and other drills. He's not going to scare opponents with his scrambling, but Haskins showed mobility last season and this can help him extend plays.

 

Avery connected Haskins with a sports psychologist for several phone sessions. Because Redskins offensive coordinator Scott Turner spent the past two years at Carolina, Spinner and Haskins went through all of the Panthers' film. They broke down the routes they like to throw and paired them up with the style of receivers Washington has -- Carolina's DJ Moore is a smaller, faster receiver similar to the Redskins' Terry McLaurin, for example. And, because Spinner spent time with four NFL franchises, he was familiar with the offense and could recognize plays and concepts.

 

The Redskins' coaches have seen the videos of Haskins working out, but those reveal only so much, considering there's no defense. However, they do provide clues.

 

"You can tell he's putting the work in away from the meeting time," Turner said. "You guys, I'm sure, have all seen the pictures. It looks like he's in great shape."

 

 

My take purely on scuttlebutt -- reporters talking about what they've heard and being told. etc.  There was real concerns last season as for Haskins' commitment both from coaches and FO people.   But this off season, looks like a total 180 transformation on that count, I love reading that stuff and hopefully it translates.  And I suspect it will. 

 

The thing that struck me most watching him in camp last year was that his mobility to my eyes looked surprisingly above average.  Not great but decent.  But I am fascinated to see what the slimmed down version of him looks like this season -- his mobility could end up distinctly above average.   If he improves his footwork (as Bullock suggested recently in an article that he needs to improve on and as I mentioned last summer when I noticed the same in camp) where he can properly align his body-footwork on throws to his right and left in the flat -- I think the sky could be the limit. 

 

His accuracy in between the numbers is really good with the exception of sometimes his throws sail on the intermediate throws.  It's outside the numbers where IMO he needs the work.  But if Zampese is the QB whisper as some purport -- that likely could be fixed. 

 

Over years watching several camps, practices, games and seeing some of the players up close and watching them interact with fans, especially young kids -- Haskins would be in my top 5 favorites of all time as for being a really good dude as fan interaction.  It's maybe a quirky thing for me in part because as a kid I used to collect autographs from baseball players and the players who were super nice -- like Cal Ripkin, those experiences stuck with me.  Ditto the players who wouldn't give fans the time of day.   Watching Haskins interact with kids is a fun watch -- super nice guy.  The player that stood out to me even more than Haskins was Guice, what a super nice guy he is, too.  

[Skinsinparadise]

22 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

You can hide a lot with seven and eight man coverages, but still have breakdowns if your corners can't match up.  That's my biggest fear for the season.  The OL is more important, and our inexperienced QBs and WRs and RBs aren't as good as our DLs so they won't be able to hide OL sins as well as the DL will be able to hide sins in the back 7.  But the OL is better than the secondary IMO.  Scherff is a lot better than our best DB and Rouillier and Moses are decent starters.  Fuller and Collins are the only solid starters in our secondary IMO, and that group really needs to be like six deep in high level rotation players to function well.  And i think Charles is a better prospect than any young player in our secondary.  We're pretty bad at DB.

 

I think both spots are wildcards.  Both spots could fall apart or be surprisingly better than expected.  

 

Best case scenario at CB is that the off season hype about Moreland proves to have some merit.  Some say he was out of position at slot and plays better outside.  K. Fuller emerges as a shut down corner.   And Moreau picks up where he left off at the end of the season. 

 

Worse case Fuller looks decent but nothing special.  Moreau looks like he has for most of his career.  Darby looks like he did in Philly, etc. 

 

As for the O line.  Best case Charles emerges as a young rookie stud.  And Martin emerges.  I think C, RG-RT are fine.

 

Worst case, Charles transgressions from college follow him here.  Christian looks as inconsistent as he has for most of his career.  Wes Martin's abysmal pass protection PFF rating granted in a small sample was a warning sign.  

[bakedtater1]

Yeah good things don't happen when we play JJ Watt thank goodness we hardly ever play him.

[TheShredder]

33 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

My take purely on scuttlebutt -- reporters talking about what they've heard and being told. etc.  There was real concerns last season as for Haskins' commitment both from coaches and FO people.   But this off season, looks like a total 180 transformation on that count, I love reading that stuff and hopefully it translates.  And I suspect it will. 

I think so too.  This was my biggest complaint about the rookie.

35 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The thing that struck me most watching him in camp last year was that his mobility to my eyes looked surprisingly above average.  Not great but decent.  But I am fascinated to see what the slimmed down version of him looks like this season -- his mobility could end up distinctly above average.   If he improves his footwork (as Bullock suggested recently in an article that he needs to improve on and as I mentioned last summer when I noticed the same in camp) where he can properly align his body-footwork on throws to his right and left in the flat -- I think the sky could be the limit. 

He wore a knee brace all through college to protect his knees.  He doesn't wear them as a Pro.

His footwork is my second complaint. Throwing off his front foot causes balls to sail.  It takes thousands of reps to change the mind muscle defaults from bad habits to proper form. a few of his videos show that he has been working on it.  Another good sign.

He is in an uptrend. 

[Koala]

32 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

My take purely on scuttlebutt -- reporters talking about what they've heard and being told. etc.  There was real concerns last season as for Haskins' commitment both from coaches and FO people.   But this off season, looks like a total 180 transformation on that count, I love reading that stuff and hopefully it translates.  And I suspect it will. 

 

The thing that struck me most watching him in camp last year was that his mobility to my eyes looked surprisingly above average.  Not great but decent.  But I am fascinated to see what the slimmed down version of him looks like this season -- his mobility could end up distinctly above average.   If he improves his footwork (as Bullock suggested recently in an article that he needs to improve on and as I mentioned last summer when I noticed the same in camp) where he can properly align his body-footwork on throws to his right and left in the flat -- I think the sky could be the limit. 

 

His accuracy in between the numbers is really good with the exception of sometimes his throws sail on the intermediate throws.  It's outside the numbers where IMO he needs the work.  But if Zampese is the QB whisper as some purport -- that likely could be fixed. 

 

Over years watching several camps, practices, games and seeing some of the players up close and watching them interact with fans, especially young kids -- Haskins would be in my top 5 favorites of all time as for being a really good dude as fan interaction.  It's maybe a quirky thing for me in part because as a kid I used to collect autographs from baseball players and the players who were super nice -- like Cal Ripkin, those experiences stuck with me.  Ditto the players who wouldn't give fans the time of day.   Watching Haskins interact with kids is a fun watch -- super nice guy.  The player that stood out to me even more than Haskins was Guice, what a super nice guy he is, too.  

 

Agreed.  If we are to believe the rumors of poor preparation from last year from last year affecting his work, then it only makes sense to get excited about rumors of the opposite this year.  And all in all, that makes him exactly what I thought he was when he was drafted -- a guy with some maturing to do on and off the field.  This  is actually normal for his age, and not an indication of a character flaw.  I was exactly like that at his age. 

 

Went through the same thing, messed up a little bit when admission to medschool was denied, re-dedicated myself, got another opportunity and took it.  Its totally normal, you can be dedicated to a profession AND a little immature about the expectations of that profession when your 21-22, especially if you run into some doubters early on.  It takes some maturity and confidence to say **** them, I know I can do this, and I can do it right.  Long as you see the light eventually, and put in the work, you'll get there -- pay no mind to the folks in the peanut gallery, theres always haters (especially if youre black, and trying to break into a mostly white profession, I must say), that are gonna try to pounce on every mis-step.  So stop mis-stepping, and shut them up the right way -- thats exactly what I see Dwayne Haskins doing right now.  I see a lot of myself in him right now, and thats why Im rooting for him, and confident he'll come out of this and turn out to be as awesome as people thought he would be.   

[Skinsinparadise]

Other good stuff from the Keim article

 

The conversations this offseason were different almost immediately. Washington Redskins quarterback Dwayne Haskins mapped out what he needed to do, then he relayed his desires to those who have helped him for years.

They heard a difference; then they saw one.

The Redskins, of course, hope to see those changes where it matters most: on the field. Regardless, Haskins felt he needed to change his approach.

 

"I won't necessarily say it's just about football, it's with everything in life," Haskins said. "I'm going to deliver, it's never a question about that."

That desire to change was evident after his rookie season to those who have worked with him since he was in high school.

"As soon as the season was over he was like, 'I need to approach this differently,'" said Bryson Spinner, a former NFL quarterback who also works with players at the position.

"We talked a good bit in February," said quarterback trainer Quincy Avery, who has worked with Haskins. "A lot of guys aren't as honest with themselves and aren't as critical of themselves as he was in that conversation. I was happy about that. I thought, 'He's ready to roll.'"

 

...These are positive signs following a turbulent rookie season. Due to an organizational split, there was controversy from the moment Washington selected Haskins with the 15th overall pick in the 2019 NFL draft. Redskins owner Dan Snyder and then-president Bruce Allen led the decision to select him. The coaches and other front-office members, convinced Haskins was not ready to contribute immediately, felt they didn't need to draft him at 15.

 

Multiple sources said last offseason Haskins needed to do more work on his own. And it was clear to others that he landed in a bad spot -- with a team whose coach, Jay Gruden, needed to win immediately. Haskins, with only 14 starts in college, needed extra attention and patience to be developed.

 

He started poorly; he finished strong. But Haskins saw what needed to happen. The result: He changed his diet and cut his weight to 218 pounds, down from 227 at season's end and 237 when he was drafted. Haskins posted videos of him working out, in Florida and in Virginia, and his body was noticeably changed.

 

..."I just wanted to be a man about my business and that's on and off the field," Haskins said. "Not that I wasn't prior, but now turning 23, still being young and growing, whenever there were questions about immaturity or lack of whatever it was, I was going to change that [perception] whether it was true or not. I needed to do that for me. I applied pressure with everything I did this offseason, with my body and how I studied, and it's making a big difference."

 

 

Avery, who also works with Houston Texans quarterback Deshaun Watson among others, says Haskins is finally understanding the roles and responsibilities of a professional quarterback.

 

"People might say, 'He didn't work hard.' Throughout his career, people have known him as a hard worker, but the details and other things required to be an NFL quarterback are a little different than the things required to be a great quarterback at other levels. I see that maturity and him getting ready to take the next step of understanding the little details, how to take care of your diet, how to take care of your body, how to be mentally prepared so he can be successful on Sundays."

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/40089/redskins-dwayne-haskins-im-going-to-deliver-year-2

[wit33]

I will always assume Brett Favre didn’t work as hard Peyton Manning, but both found a “system” that elevated them both to be elite.

 

Hope Haskins is on his way to finding a system that works for him. 
 

 

** An Alex Smith piece involving Haskins is due in next 30 days. 
 

[Koala]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

I will always assume Brett Favre didn’t work as hard Peyton Manning, but both found a “system” that elevated them both to be elite.

 

Hope Haskins is on his way to finding a system that works for him. 
 

 

** An Alex Smith piece involving Haskins is due in next 30 days. 
 

True, and its also true that we all know that if Brett Favre had Peyton Manning's work ethic, he woulda been the Wayne Gretzky of football

[wit33]

5 minutes ago, Koala said:

True, and its also true that we all know that if Brett Favre had Peyton Manning's work ethic, he woulda been the Wayne Gretzky of football

Not in the least—Favre found a system that worked for his personality. 
 

One could say Peyton was over prepared resulting in it being difficult to adjust/improvise in games.

 

Hypothetical: 
 

What if  QB “A” has created a study routine that gets in a days work in 3 hours versus  QB “B” it taking 6 hours.

 

Is one preferred over the other??

[volsmet]

7 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

We definitely need a huge upgrade in the secondary. And we could be really bad there this year. I'm not sure a rookie Chase Young and 2nd year Montez Sweat move the needle that much. I think our DL starts punching hard in 2021. 

That being said, I don't think we are necessarily that far away either. Moreau was pretty good on the outside. Fuller is obviously solid. I like Moreland's chances. We need to hit on a couple of the young guys...Moreland, Stroman, Apke, Moreau. If we can have a couple of guys break through, we are a CB1 away from being super solid in 2021.  

I’d be more surprised if Young isn’t in the pro bowl - than if Sweat is.

 

 

44 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Not in the least—Favre found a system that worked for his personality. 
 

 

Favre has his best season under Kevin Rogers while in Minnesota. 

[volsmet]

3 hours ago, wit33 said:

I will always assume Brett Favre didn’t work as hard Peyton Manning, but both found a “system” that elevated them both to be elite.

 

Hope Haskins is on his way to finding a system that works for him. 
 

 

** An Alex Smith piece involving Haskins is due in next 30 days. 
 

Peyton - after nerve damage to his neck, made people think Decker, Julius Thomas, & Demaryius Thomas were hall of Famers. 
 

When Peyton got hurt in Indi, the system went 0-13. When Brady got hurt, that system went 11-5.

 

[wit33]

2 hours ago, volsmet said:

Peyton - after nerve damage to his neck, made people think Decker, Julius Thomas, & Demaryius Thomas were hall of Famers. 
 

When Peyton got hurt in Indi, the system went 0-13. When Brady got hurt, that system went 11-5.

 

Peyton was amazing— No argument from me. 
 

How about Andrew Lucks “system” the next season as a rookie going “11-5”.  
 

I’ll leave it Up for debate if that was Favre at his best. Sure, from a QB rating standpoint, but he wasn’t Superman like he was during his 3 consecutive  MVP seasons with Packers, IMO. 
 

 

[Conn]

4 hours ago, wit33 said:

Peyton was amazing— No argument from me. 
 

How about Andrew Lucks “system” the next season as a rookie going “11-5”.  
 

I’ll leave it Up for debate if that was Favre at his best. Sure, from a QB rating standpoint, but he wasn’t Superman like he was during his 3 consecutive  MVP seasons with Packers, IMO. 
 

 

 

Luck was one of the best prospects at the position coming out of college, ever. Earned due to that 0-win effort Peytonless team. 

[Skinsinparadise]

7 hours ago, wit33 said:

Not in the least—Favre found a system that worked for his personality. 
 

One could say Peyton was over prepared resulting in it being difficult to adjust/improvise in games.

 

Hypothetical: 
 

What if  QB “A” has created a study routine that gets in a days work in 3 hours versus  QB “B” it taking 6 hours.

 

Is one preferred over the other??

 

Manning and Brady are known as preparation hounds as from what I recall most successful QBs are known for.  I don't think there is a downside to it.   Arians in particular dived deep in his book about how preparation is everything outside of raw talent.  And he knew his share of raw talents who didn't succeed because of lack of preparation.   I recall watching Gregg Williams in an interview once talk about how difficult it was to play the chess match with Peyton and the dude seemed in awe of him. 

 

I don't know if Favre was a hard worker or not.  And no doubt there are exceptions to everything but like anything else it's about playing the odds.  I'll trust Bruce Arians and Joe Gibbs among others who say it's tough to me really good in the NFL especially at QB if you aren't a workaholic.

 

Arians goes into it in detail in his book about QBs, he harps mostly on 5 points on that front.  Been awhile since I read the book but this is what I recall. 

 

A.  At QB, you have to keep honing your delivery and its about reps to generate consistency.  He likened it to a golf swing.  Those who don't prepare hard everything being equal tend to have more inconsistent deliveries and in turn tend to be inconsistent -- streaky players. 

 

B.  Preparation during the week of games are key.  If his QBs aren't doing it then the defensive coordinator he's facing is likely doing it and over time good D coordinators will foil underprepared QBs. 

 

C.  The repetition-practice helps the speed of your processing.  Arians goes most QBs he's coached, including backups, could figure out what to do in the QB room when they simulated things.  The difference is how fast could they do it?  Dudes like Peyton could do it lightning quick.  Speed is everything.

 

D.  Obsess with understanding protections, a key part of succeeding.  That's tough to do without preparing hard because every defense is different.  You talk about Peyton, that's one thing he can do like the back of his hand.

 

E. He concluded that most of the QBs he knew were successful were workaholic types.    It's not a position that relatively speaking that's easy to wing it unlike some other spots.  Talented QBs sometimes don't make it because of lack of preparation.  Actually Shanny said the #1 thing about evaluating a QB on tape versus having them in the locker room -- is that when he has them in his locker room he can predict their likelihood of success much greater and he specifically said that's because he could see how hard they work.   

 

After reading Arians book, I became pretty hardcore on the work ethic component of the QB position.  Gibbs would obsess on it too over the years but Arians really spelled it out well with examples of it. I was a critic of Daniel Jones coming into the draft but as I mentioned on this thread he was better than I expected.  And I admit when I heard a NY reporter say during the season that the Giants are privately delighted with Jones because behind the scenes he's been an animal, shows up at 4:30 am to do game prep, etc -- I admit it ran through my mind that that dude is going to maximize his talent and in turn might defy some of his critics including me. 

 

And when I heard opposite type stories about Haskins, i.e., stories that Haskins is among the first to leave and coaches-FO people didn't see him as a hard worker who does the extra things to be great -- that concerned me.  I didn't see it though as a character flaw as some did.  As I've mentioned, i think Haskins is a really good guy and smart and talented.  He has the ingredients. To me it was simple -- like Cooley likes to say some dudes love football and some don't.   So I wondered some about Haskins on that front, since there were so many narratives about it.

 

But one thing that struck me about Haskins is he comes off competitive as heck.  So I wondered about whether all those narratives out there about him would fuel him.  And those narratives were everywhere this off-season -- local and national.    It's clear by that ESPN article and others -- he's indeed fueled by that among other things and he has done a 180 on all of this.  So yeah count me as thrilled to read about him obsessing over preparation and working and all of that good stuff.  As @Koala mentioned when you are young sometimes something just snaps in after some adversity and you take off in a positive direction.  These narratives have that feel to it big time.  And to me it's a really big deal.   At least for me, it has increased my confidence in him being a good QB dramatically. 

 

 

 

 

[dyst]

218 is like really thin for a QB at his size isn’t it? Haskins was able to take some of those hits because he had some bulk to him.

[Llevron]

1 hour ago, dyst said:

218 is like really thin for a QB at his size isn’t it? Haskins was able to take some of those hits because he had some bulk to him.

 

I was thinking the same ****. I hope we are wrong. Dude has good feel in the crap so maybe that will keep him healthy. 

 

I immediately started thinking about Griffins ankles when I read that. 

[Renegade7]

I'd be more concerned about body fat % then literal weight.

 

Anyway, he's immortalized now : )

 

 

 

[OVCChairman]

1 hour ago, dyst said:

218 is like really thin for a QB at his size isn’t it? Haskins was able to take some of those hits because he had some bulk to him.

 

39 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I was thinking the same ****. I hope we are wrong. Dude has good feel in the crap so maybe that will keep him healthy. 

 

I immediately started thinking about Griffins ankles when I read that. 

 

 

Dwayne Haskins 6'3 218

 

Matt Ryan 6'4 217

Alex Smith 6'4 213

Tom Brady 6'4 225

Jared Goff 6'4 222

Andy Dalton 6'2 220

Derek Carr 6'3 210

Daniel Jones 6'5 221

Ryan Tannehil 6'4 217

 

 

 

I dont think he's that far off... 

 

Admittedly these were quick searches i got via Pro Football Reference and a couple on Wiki, so it's possible they're old or have changed.... but I dont think he's too far off the average.   

[wit33]

@Skinsinparadise

 

What amount of hours per day and days per year must a QB work to be considered a hard worker? Does it just come down to the local reporter saying a player is the first one in and out? 
 

My thoughts are that some are able to create, learn, and evolve a system that works for them. Id just love to see raw data and the day to day system of QBs to compare. 
 

Some people prefer achieving “flow” through a calendar year of work versus grinding each day. I like to compare Kobe and Lebron in this respect— Kobe being the relentless day to day worker and Lebron being a guy wanting to achieve flow (disclaimer, this is all conjecture).

 

The argument from me isn’t working hard, but trying to explore what that means. As it is right now, most fans assume the good to great QBs all must work the similar amounts of hours in a day or year. 

[wit33]

4 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

Luck was one of the best prospects at the position coming out of college, ever. Earned due to that 0-win effort Peytonless team. 

Indeed he was— What a talent! 

[Number 44]

11 hours ago, wit33 said:

Not in the least—Favre found a system that worked for his personality. 
 

One could say Peyton was over prepared resulting in it being difficult to adjust/improvise in games.

 

Hypothetical: 
 

What if  QB “A” has created a study routine that gets in a days work in 3 hours versus  QB “B” it taking 6 hours.

 

Is one preferred over the other??

 

[HTTRDynasty]

Interesting article:

 

Lowest and highest first-read percentages among quarterbacks

Top-10  in first-read rate		Bottom-10 in first-read rate
Ryan Fitzpatrick	84.7%	Gardner Minshew	69.1%
Mitchell Trubisky	84.6%	Ben Roethlisberger	69.8%
Cam Newton	84.5%	Jacoby Brissett	71.1%
Andy Dalton	82.4%	Blake Bortles	71.2%
Kyle Allen	82.1%	Aaron Rodgers	71.8%
Jeff Driskel	81.0%	Sam Darnold	72.1%
Jimmy Garoppolo	80.9%	Teddy Bridgewater	72.6%
Dwayne Haskins	80.5%	Case Keenum	73.6%
Josh Rosen	79.5%	Lamar Jackson	73.9%
Jameis Winston	79.1%	Derek Carr	74.4%

 

Biggest drop-offs from first-read grade to non-first-read grade (QBs with 50 or more attempts on each, 2018-19, regular season only)

Player	Grade on first read throws	Grade on non-first-read throws	Difference
Jared Goff	90.3	47.1	43.2
Ryan Tannehill	79.6	41.9	37.7
Joe Flacco	77.9	43.4	34.5
Dak Prescott	83.9	54.1	29.8
Mitchell Trubisky	65.8	38.5	27.3
Derek Carr	84.5	59.7	24.8
Nick Mullens	72.9	48.5	24.4
Daniel Jones	72.2	48.5	23.7
Philip Rivers	89.3	66.2	23.1
Gardner Minshew	77.0	54.3	22.7

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-the-best-quarterbacks-on-first-and-second-read-throws-patrick-mahomes-drew-brees-aaron-rodgers

[HTTRDynasty]