mistertim Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 9 hours ago, Riggo#44 said: Trey Quinn and Cam Sims are going to struggle to make the team, and he doesn't mention Steven Sims, Kelvin Harmon, or AGG. I hate lazy "reporting" I also would rather they talk about us after the season than before it. Yeah that article sounds like he didn't really watch much but obviously knew about McLauren, then basically went to look at our depth chart and just grabbed a couple of WR names to throw out there. To anyone who watched, or even just looked at the stats, Quinn And Cam Sims were basically non-entities last season compared with Steven Sims and Harmon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 4 hours ago, Riggo#44 said: He also said he wasn't going to chase "cheap wins." Why sign Peters and take reps away from Charles and Christian? What happens if either take a leap forward? Give Gibson, Sims, AGG, Harmon, et al a good, long look. I love it. I feel like we have more speed than we have in recent years. Maybe that's just me. I agree with the speed aspect. We have a lot of guys who can stretch the field. Now, if we don't call runs on 70% of first down runs, that would be the next step. What we really lack are 3 things: 1. Any Confidence surrounding RB health. If I said, "Guice is going to be himself and be healthy the entire season" I think the conversation surrounding the entire offensive skill position group changes significantly. But we haven't seen that, Love hasn't been able to take a snap yet (though they knew that would be the case when they drafted him). The other guys are McKissic, who's more of a dual-threat type of receiver and hasn't been that productive yet, a bunch of backups who will compete hard and get cut quickly, and Gibson, who's a rookie. And AP. But he's 78 years old, and really only does one thing well, though he does that one thing REALLY well. 2. Any type of depth or skill at TE. There just isn't anything there to really even get remotely excited about. They might have a couple guys who could be ok blockers, they have a rookie who has some upside with a big name, but lacks athleticism. Sprinkle is fine for a 2-way TE who doesn't do anything particularly well. 3. Experience and track record at WR. McLaurin is really good, but opposite him there is a real question mark. Personally, I think Harmon has something to him, but I don' think he's ever going to be a super threat because he lacks some speed. But he has size, so that's good. Sims has a lot of potential, but only really performed for a few games at the end of the year. AGG is a rookie from Liberty. Here's the best case scenario: - Guice stays healthy and is able to gain 4+ yards per carry, and adds a few receptions here and there, which keeps the defense honest. - McLaurin improves on what he did his rookie season to vault himself really to the elite level of WR. - Sims takes the next step and takes over the middle of the field. - Between Harmon and AGG, they provide enough of a threat on the other side defenses can't just single them up and double McLaurin and Sims all the time. They don't have to be great, they just have to be "good enough." - Gibson turns into that guy where he gets 5-10 touches a game from a whole variety of positions, which causes defenses to really figure out where he is going to be and plan around it. And they are impactful, explosive plays. - The combo of Sims at slot WR and Gibson at RB replace the "safety blanket" aspect of the TE catching short passes over the middle. If ALL of those things happen, by God I think you've got something. And this notion of Haskins having zero supporting cast is bologna. What are the chances all of those things happen? I'd give it, 10%. My biggest concern is Guice won't stay healthy, honestly. But if some of that happens, with the right scheme, you can still move the football. Now, the worst case is if Guice is hurt again, Love stays hurt, AP shows his age, Terry has a sophomore slump, Sims doesn't improve and really is just an UFA who had a couple game splash, Harmon is just a big, slow guy who can't get separation, the leap is too big from Memphis to the NFL for Gibson and he can't contribute right away, and the OL is a complete mess. In that scenario, Joe Montana probably wouldn't be able to make water out of wine. We'll see. I think most pundits are taking my second scenario as the most likely and realistic. I'm in the middle, and Larry Michael and Joe Theisman probably believe in the first option. 1 hour ago, mistertim said: Yeah that article sounds like he didn't really watch much but obviously knew about McLauren, then basically went to look at our depth chart and just grabbed a couple of WR names to throw out there. To anyone who watched, or even just looked at the stats, Quinn And Cam Sims were basically non-entities last season compared with Steven Sims and Harmon. If Quinn is on the team, I'll say the same thing as I said when Grant was a penciled in as a starting WR, you've failed at your job to upgrade the roster. Quinn lacks the athletic talent to be a real contributor in the NFL as a WR. He also hasn't shown beans as a ST contributor. So apart from the fact these two factors made him a immediate Jay Gruden favorite, he shouldn't be on a roster which is trying to build to anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 With all this new, young talent, I'll be highly miffed if Quinn survives cutdown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Just now, Mr. Sinister said: With all this new, young talent, I'll be highly miffed if Quinn survives cutdown I doubt he does. I also think when he is cut, Jay Gruden is going to go begging the Jags to sign him. And they won't. I also remained shocked Colt didn't end up with Jacksonville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 I think there's a reality in which Logan Thomas has a Darren Waller-esque late-career breakout (each previously stunted for different reasons, obviously). I am not confident that we live in that reality, mind you. I just think it's out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 55 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said: I think there's a reality in which Logan Thomas has a Darren Waller-esque late-career breakout (each previously stunted for different reasons, obviously). I am not confident that we live in that reality, mind you. I just think it's out there. It's more more likely reality than ending up in a threesome with Sophie Turner and Emelia Clark, which could happen, but is highly unlikely, I'll give you that. How much more likely, I am not sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said: Quinn lacks the athletic talent to be a real contributor in the NFL as a WR. He also hasn't shown beans as a ST contributor. So apart from the fact these two factors made him a immediate Jay Gruden favorite, he shouldn't be on a roster which is trying to build to anything. From what I saw the biggest thing that Sims has that Quinn doesn't, and you can see when watching them, is suddenness and quick feet which makes it hard for Quinn to get separation. Quinn isn't a bad route runner necessarily, he just doesn't seem to have the athletic ability to get in and out of his breaks at speed like some guys do. Sims has decent speed but isn't on McLaurin's level, but he does have really good short area quickness that helps him get open. Basically ideal for a slot guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always A Commander Never A Captain Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 15 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said: It's so interesting to see the correlation between good offenses and team success. The top 10 Total DVOA teams in the league all had top 11 offenses, whereas defense doesn't correlate nearly as much to overall team success. And special teams is obviously even less correlated. Just really hammers home the point that we should be committing as many resources as possible towards having a top 10 offense above all else. Obviously, Dwayne is a big part of that. He has to reach his potential. I started posting outliers, but I think there's other factors that have to play into contributing extra wins to a great defensive team or a great offensive team. From glancing at some other rankings, here's my guess. Great defenses need to generate a large amount of turnovers to get extra wins. Seems like great offenses need to dominate the Time Of Possession category to really get those extra wins. I think in general though, good offenses matter a bit more than good defenses. Offenses winning Time Of Possession to keep bad defenses fresher helps. Also gives opposing coaches fewer plays/concepts to experiment with to see how the defense reacts and then exploit that. For example, last season: The Steeler were 8-8 with the #32 offense, but won games behind the #3 defense with the #1 turnover ratio (20.3% of the time their defense was on the field, they got a turnover) The Cowboys were also 8-8, with the #2 offense, but had the #19 defense. What hurt was their offense was only league average, #16 in Time Of Possession per drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 17 hours ago, wit33 said: @Alcoholic Zebra I think @Skinsinparadise mentioned Colley discussing with Sheehan Gibson being a great fit at Hback. Man, I’d love to be at the forefront of something radical on offense! Yeah it's looking like 2 back sets this year so some funky formations with Gibson being part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always A Commander Never A Captain Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said: Sims has a lot of potential, but only really performed for a few games at the end of the year. I don't think that's Sims fault. Blame the coaches. Sometimes I feel like I'm the #1 delusional fan on the Steven Sims fan club that's turning it into a cult to try and convert the people who are being rationally patient and skeptical. But here goes some stats I posted in the draft thread awhile back. For awhile Sims was viewed as just a returner, and then as just a gadget guy on offense (end-arounds, fakes, etc). By the time the coaching staff started slowly realizing that Quinn wasn't capable of doing it, most of the season was already over. Sims snap count began slowly increasing in the last 6 games, and only really picked up in the last 4 games as Quinn got a concussion. Once he actually got playing time, he started producing. During the last 5 games, he's the second most productive rookie WR in the NFL. Behind AJ Brown. That's it. Receiving Rk Player Pos Age Year Lg Tm G W L T Tgt Rec Yds Y/R TD Ctch% Y/Tgt 1 A.J. Brown WR 22 2019 NFL OTI 5 3 2 0 34 21 470 22.38 4 61.8% 13.82 2 Steven Sims WR 22 2019 NFL WAS 5 1 4 0 40 23 259 11.26 4 57.5% 6.48 3 Darius Slayton WR 22 2019 NFL NYG 5 2 3 0 31 17 279 16.41 3 54.8% 9.00 4 Diontae Johnson WR 23 2019 NFL PIT 5 2 3 0 36 24 271 11.29 2 66.7% 7.53 5 Terry McLaurin WR 24 2019 NFL WAS 4 1 3 0 25 18 281 15.61 2 72.0% 11.24 6 D.K. Metcalf WR 21 2019 NFL SEA 5 2 3 0 30 20 270 13.50 2 66.7% 9.00 If you want to extend this to all WR's, including veterans then it looks like this over the last 4 games (with a 200 receiving yard minimum, or 50 a game). Last 4 games is also fair, as Quinn was injured so the coaches had to start gameplanning for Sims. Receiving Rk Player Pos Age Year Lg Tm G W L T Tgt Rec Yds Y/R TD Ctch% Y/Tgt 1 Breshad Perriman WR 26 2019 NFL TAM 4 2 2 0 31 20 419 20.95 5 64.5% 13.52 2 A.J. Brown WR 22 2019 NFL OTI 4 2 2 0 30 18 425 23.61 4 60.0% 14.17 3 Cooper Kupp WR 26 2019 NFL RAM 4 2 2 0 24 21 216 10.29 4 87.5% 9.00 4 Steven Sims WR 22 2019 NFL WAS 4 0 4 0 36 20 230 11.50 4 55.6% 6.39 5 Jamison Crowder WR 26 2019 NFL NYJ 4 3 1 0 36 21 245 11.67 3 58.3% 6.81 6 Michael Gallup WR 23 2019 NFL DAL 4 2 2 0 31 17 311 18.29 3 54.8% 10.03 7 DeVante Parker WR 26 2019 NFL MIA 4 2 2 0 35 19 348 18.32 3 54.3% 9.94 8 Darius Slayton WR 22 2019 NFL NYG 4 2 2 0 22 11 235 21.36 3 50.0% 10.68 9 Michael Thomas WR 26 2019 NFL NOR 4 3 1 0 53 39 435 11.15 3 73.6% 8.21 10 Davante Adams WR 26 2019 NFL GNB 4 4 0 0 48 31 353 11.39 2 64.6% 7.35 FYI, in the Giants game, Sims almost had a long touchdown but Keenum overthrew Sims despite Sims running a great route and having 5 yards of separation. That was a touchdown if he hits him in stride. Better throw on that play and his stats over the last 4 games become 299 yards and 5 TD's. That puts him as arguably the 3rd best producing WR in the NFL over that stretch. Now I'm not saying Sims is going to be one of the best WR's immediately in 2020, but I'm saying is the kid has some serious route running skills, showed a real ability to separate, and has the quicks to get YAC. He's legitimately a quality weapon, and the league and these sports writers are sleeping hard. 2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said: If Quinn is on the team, I'll say the same thing as I said when Grant was a penciled in as a starting WR, you've failed at your job to upgrade the roster. Unfortunately, I agree. Don't want to say a young players career is already over, but...I'm not seeing how he should stick around. 2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said: Quinn lacks the athletic talent to be a real contributor in the NFL as a WR. He also hasn't shown beans as a ST contributor. So apart from the fact these two factors made him a immediate Jay Gruden favorite, he shouldn't be on a roster which is trying to build to anything. Ouch! I mean, it's true...but damn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 46 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said: I don't think that's Sims fault. Blame the coaches I almost got banned for blaming the coaches for everything. So I’m down with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 58 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said: Ouch! I mean, it's true...but damn! Colt McCoy, Ryan Grant, Rob Kelly, Quinn, so many others. Good dudes, try hard, coachable, lack talent. All Gruden favorites. There is no question why the Skins have such a dearth if talent. Bruce was a complete idiot and Jay loved guys who lacked elite talent. Thank God for Kyle Smith at least putting together good drafts and Doug Williams not allowing Gruden to draft Quinn in the 5th round which is where he wanted to take him. (That’s sourced from and interview with Doug Williams on 980 right after the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo#44 Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Its funny, I initially liked Gruden. Its readily apparent why he stuck so long: he would never challenge Allen's authority. Snyder's biggest problem is who he puts his faith in, silver-tongued sycophants like Allen and Cerrato. This is why I feel its different, all of his old cronies are gone. Its Rivera's ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 12 minutes ago, mistertim said: From what I saw the biggest thing that Sims has that Quinn doesn't, and you can see when watching them, is suddenness and quick feet which makes it hard for Quinn to get separation. Quinn isn't a bad route runner necessarily, he just doesn't seem to have the athletic ability to get in and out of his breaks at speed like some guys do. Sims has decent speed but isn't on McLaurin's level, but he does have really good short area quickness that helps him get open. Basically ideal for a slot guy. I completely agree. I like the term "suddenness." He has enough twitch and burst that he can accelerate into and out of his breaks with a lot more power than Quinn. Whereas Quinn, if you watched him carefully, you could tell a step or two early what he was going to do because he had to start the break earlier. Which means a starting DB in the NFL will be on him like white on rice. With Sims, his athletic ability allows him to generate just that slight separation. Which is key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always A Commander Never A Captain Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Another thing that helps Sims he's got a strong plant hard and go ability. So he can sell the initial fake harder. Jerry Jeudy isn't some insane athlete, he's got middling size. He's not Julio Jones, or Tyreek Hill. But his plant and go ability is great, and you see he uses it well to sell routes. I'm not saying Sims is Jeudy. Just saying he's got some of what made Jeudy a 1st rounder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo#44 Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 53 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said: With Sims, his athletic ability allows him to generate just that slight separation. Which is key. Wes Welker ran a 4.6. Obviously not saying Sims is going to be Welker, but the similarity is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Riggo#44 said: Wes Welker ran a 4.6. Obviously not saying Sims is going to be Welker, but the similarity is there. Walker has just an incredible ability to get open, using timing, quickness and skill. Sims has the tools to be that type of receiver. Obviously Welker also had a few other things working in his favor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Tomb Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said: Another thing that helps Sims he's got a strong plant hard and go ability. So he can sell the initial fake harder. Jerry Jeudy isn't some insane athlete, he's got middling size. He's not Julio Jones, or Tyreek Hill. But his plant and go ability is great, and you see he uses it well to sell routes. I'm not saying Sims is Jeudy. Just saying he's got some of what made Jeudy a 1st rounder. What's your take on Ceedee Lamb? Everyone is the media is gaga over the guy, but I think it's just because he's on the Cowboys now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malapropismic Depository Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 6 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said: What's your take on Ceedee Lamb? Everyone is the media is gaga over the guy, but I think it's just because he's on the Cowboys now. Even on draft day, he was displaying his tremendous 'hands' at 0:59 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 RED ZONE: DAVANTE ADAMS, GREEN BAY PACKERS Player Routes run Targets Target rate 1. Davante Adams 51 23 45.1% 2. Preston Williams 28 10 35.7% 3. Cooper Kupp 63 21 33.3% 4. Steven Sims 27 9 33.3% 5. Hunter Renfrow 42 12 28.6% 6. Michael Thomas 90 25 27.8% 7. Allen Robinson 75 20 26.7% 8. Courtland Sutton 76 20 26.3% 9. Mike Evans 61 16 26.2% 10. Jamison Crowder 61 16 26.2% THIRD/FOURTH DOWN: COOPER KUPP, LOS ANGELES RAMS Player Routes run Targets Target rate 1. Cooper Kupp 169 52 30.8% 2. Alshon Jeffery 90 27 30.0% 3. Steven Sims 81 24 29.6% 4. Adam Thielen 72 21 29.2% 5. Tyreek Hill 95 27 28.4% 6. Michael Thomas 150 42 28.0% 7. Hunter Renfrow 118 33 28.0% 8. Tajae Sharpe 68 19 27.9% 9. Keenan Allen 169 47 27.8% 10. Stefon Diggs 135 37 27.4% LINED UP IN THE SLOT: MICHAEL THOMAS, NEW ORLEANS SAINTS Player Routes run Targets Target rate 1. Michael Thomas 179 64 35.8% 2. DeAndre Hopkins 211 57 27.0% 3. Cooper Kupp 375 99 26.4% 4. Julio Jones 127 33 26.0% 5. Julian Edelman 413 101 24.5% 6. Allen Robinson 259 63 24.3% 7. Robert Woods 211 51 24.2% 8. Keenan Allen 308 71 23.1% 9. Sterling Shepard 184 42 22.8% 10. Steven Sims 168 37 22.0% ALL ROUTES: MICHAEL THOMAS, NEW ORLEANS SAINTS Player Routes run Targets Target rate 1. Michael Thomas 599 180 30.1% 2. Davante Adams 427 124 29.0% 3. Julio Jones 572 149 26.0% 4. DeAndre Hopkins 584 146 25.0% 5. Tyreek Hill 351 87 24.8% 6. Keenan Allen 596 147 24.7% 7. Steven Sims 213 52 24.4% 8. Allen Robinson 630 153 24.3% 9. T.Y. Hilton 276 67 24.3% 10. Alshon Jeffery 286 69 24.1% For @Alcoholic Zebra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo#44 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 21 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said: Walker has just an incredible ability to get open, using timing, quickness and skill. Sims has the tools to be that type of receiver. Obviously Welker also had a few other things working in his favor... I was thinking a Danny Amendola type. He's someone I'm looking forward to watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 On 6/23/2020 at 11:09 AM, mistertim said: From what I saw the biggest thing that Sims has that Quinn doesn't, and you can see when watching them, is suddenness and quick feet which makes it hard for Quinn to get separation. Quinn isn't a bad route runner necessarily, he just doesn't seem to have the athletic ability to get in and out of his breaks at speed like some guys do. Sims has decent speed but isn't on McLaurin's level, but he does have really good short area quickness that helps him get open. Basically ideal for a slot guy. Sims is a 4.4 guy (I’ve seen reports of him timing 4.3 and as high as 4.5 - so let’s go 4.4). Importantly he plays to that speed - he has game speed. He has to get better at tracking the deep ball for me - if he can add the ability to stretch the field to his short area quickness and YAC potential we really might have something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malapropismic Depository Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 Sims does have a way with separation...both from defenders, and from the competition, Quinn, whom he has risen above clearly. But I'm not ready to give up on Quinn. At the least, he could end up being quality and cheap depth. And ST help, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 Sims' speed is a bit of a mystery. I was listening to a podcast from a WR coach who worked with Sims this off season. I don't know how he gauged it but he suggested Sims is a 4.5 guy, he's not lightening fast according to him. But said that's why he dropped in the draft and the Redskins were lucky to get him -- saying short guys who aren't super fast often drop in the draft or go undrafted. But he goes that Sims is so fast out of his breaks - stems -- that he plays plenty fast enough and he thinks he ends up a stud. Variable data on Sims. Player profiler has him at 4.61, I saw that somewhere else, too. That seems slower than reality. I've also seen 4.5. Sims in an interview said he's 4.4 fast. I reading reading stuff from draft geeks thinking before he was actually timed that he was a 4.3 guy based on their projections. For me I don't think it matters, he plays fast and is slippery in the open field. A lot of the top slot guys aren't big time burners but are slippery which is arguably a more important quality if you are trying to slip by defenders in between the numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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