FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Burgold]

4 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

What's interesting is that PFF ranked us as the 13th best OL for 2019, yet most people seem to think our OL will be awful this year.  Do the subtractions of Flowers (who was thought of as a joke before last season) and Penn (who we could re-sign if we really thought it was necessary) take our OL from 13th to weak?

 

We do have question marks at LT and LG, but we had those same questions last year before the season started.  I'm not taking it as a given that we'll be "weak" at OL.

I think PFF has been really bad at grading OL historically. I do think our line overachieved last year, but it still struggled mightily at times. Also, in terms of OL coaches, we probably have downgraded.

[HTTRDynasty]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

 

I think we will be fine at LG. But I assume that PFF ranking was pre season and assumed Williams would start at LT. We have a below average starter at RT and thin air at LT right now with the competition between a 3rd round rookie, a young player who has looked awful in the starts he has had and a journeyman. OT is a big concern to me.

 

Nope, article came out on December 31, 2019: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-2019-regular-season

 

Most fans hate their OL.  I'd guess 85% of fanbases think their OL is terrible or below average.  I just think we need to realize that 3/5ths of our OL being proven solid to good starters is a luxury many teams don't have.

 

22 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I think PFF has been really bad at grading OL historically. 

 

Proof, or is this just personal opinion?  OL is actually the position group they pride themselves on most.

[Burgold]

42 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Proof, or is this just personal opinion?  OL is actually the position group they pride themselves on most.

I don't know how I would prove it?

 

I do remember them rating Shawn Lauvao as one of the best guards in the NFL when we all watched him endlessly whiffing or being pushed straight back into the QB. Likewise, I remember other players whose ratings just bore no relationship with what we saw during the games.

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Nope, article came out on December 31, 2019: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-2019-regular-season

 

Most fans hate their OL.  I'd guess 85% of fanbases think their OL is terrible or below average.  I just think we need to realize that 3/5ths of our OL being proven solid to good starters is a luxury many teams don’t have.

Then I’m scratching my head on being ranked 13th!!!

 

I would not have Moses ranked as a solid to good starter. I think he’s bottom third in the NFL. I do think we will be fine at LG-C-RG. OT however is a concern.

[HTTRDynasty]

44 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I do remember them rating Shawn Lauvao as one of the best guards in the NFL when we all watched him endlessly whiffing or being pushed straight back into the QB. 

 

Maybe you're remembering a grade they gave him for a game or two.  At no point during his career was he rated as one of the best guards in the NFL.  

 

I think this is a common issue when it comes to how fans view PFF.  They are not the end-all, be-all, but their evaluation is often much more accurate than our human faulty memories.

 

 

 

 

[HTTRDynasty]

17 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Then I’m scratching my head on being ranked 13th!!!

 

I would not have Moses ranked as a solid to good starter. I think he’s bottom third in the NFL. I do think we will be fine at LG-C-RG. OT however is a concern.

 

I honestly don't blame you for thinking Moses is a below average RT, just from the eye test.  But I personally can't say that with anything close to certainty because I don't evaluate every snap from every RT across the league.  So while I can say Moses is a vastly inferior player to Lane Johnson or La'el Collins, since I watch a lot of Eagles/Cowboys games, I can't say that he's inferior to Tytus Howard, who is the starting RT for the Texans.  PFF happens to think Moses is much better than Howard, but I'm not going to watch every Texans game to confirm that.  Multiply that example x 28 or 29 teams, and I feel comfortable with ranking him as an average RT, which is where PFF has ranked him throughout his career.

[Warhead36]

OL play across the league is pretty poor outside of a few teams. Most teams simply get by with average to mediocre OL play with scheme and above average to elite QB play.

 

Just about every fanbase in the league complains about their OL. Its the new boogeyman/scapegoat.

 

Reg. Moses, he's better than we give him credit for. Guy plays through pain and is pretty consistent.

[HTTRDynasty]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

OL play across the league is pretty poor outside of a few teams. Most teams simply get by with average to mediocre OL play with scheme and above average to elite QB play.

 

Good point.  I'd actually attribute a lot of this to just how athletic DTs and EDGE rushers have become over the years.  Add that to the fact that this has become a passing league, and most OLs will look pedestrian given the amount of pass-rushing talent that is currently in the league along the DL.

[redskinss]

The eagles offensive line just took a big hit.

Brandon brooks out for the season with a torn Achilles. 

[Skinsinparadise]

20 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Secondary too.  Might be even harder to cope with a bad secondary than bad OL.  Great playmakers and quarterbacking can hide some sins on your OL for a while.  But secondary weak links can be back breaking.

 

Could be but some say a monster pass rush can mask secondary issues.  I guess will see. 

13 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

OL play across the league is pretty poor outside of a few teams. Most teams simply get by with average to mediocre OL play with scheme and above average to elite QB play.

 

Just about every fanbase in the league complains about their OL. Its the new boogeyman/scapegoat.

 

Reg. Moses, he's better than we give him credit for. Guy plays through pain and is pretty consistent.

 

Most of the better teams albeit not all though have really good O lines if not on the run blocking front than via pass blocking or vice versa.   Saints in particular have been sneaky good on this front for years.   The Ravens often seem to have a good O line.  There are exceptions to everything.   But by and large if you have a good QB and good O line protections = good team.

 

If you have an elite or very good Qb, you can get away with a lot in the NFL.  But if you don't have that, it's tough to see many teams who are good IMO with a pedestrian or less than that O line.  As for our O line, on paper at least, its pedestrian at best IMO.   It was ranked next to last in the league in pass protection last year according to Football Outsiders.   

 

Moses IMO is OK.  According to PFF, he tied for 5th in the league last year in the most penalties given up, 11.  And he gave up 5 sacks.  He's given up 5 sacks a year according to PFF for 5 seasons in a row.  There is a reason why he's never sniffed a pro bowl, he's nothing special IMO.  But he is a warrior, good guy, plays hurt.  It's good to have dudes like that on the team but he's no stud at that spot.  We got IMO one stud on the O line, Scherff. 

 

 

https://www.thephinsider.com/2019/7/21/20702713/how-important-is-the-offensive-line-in-the-nfl-passing-game-a-look-at

How important is the Offensive Line?

Pro Football Focus ranks the Offensive Lines by Pass Blocking Efficiency. This takes into account Sacks, Hits and Hurries. Sacks are more heavily weighted than hits or hurries.

However. PFF does not attribute all sacks or hurries to the OL. For example, Big Ben was sacked 24 times and pressured 172 times. The Pittsburgh OL was charged with only 13 sacks and 134 pressures. Other sacks and pressures were attributed to other players. Big Ben was charged with 2 sacks and 24 pressures presumably because he took too long to get rid of the ball.

Teams with Highest PBE in 2018

Team	Pass Blocking Eff	Team Pass Rating
Pit	89.7	95.5
Chi	89.1	95.4
Bal	88.7	84
Cle	88.5	88.8
Atl	88.1	108
KC	88.0	113
NE	87.8	97.8
Phi	87.7	100.7
NO	87.4	112.3
Ind	87.2	98.2
LAR	86.5	100.7
Buf	85.7	62.6

 

Eight of the 12 teams with the highest PBE made the playoffs. Atlanta had a high PBE and a great offense that scored over 400 points but missed the playoffs because of the defense. The correlation between Team Pass Blocking Efficiency and Team Wins was 0.499. This was very significant.

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26888038/pass-blocking-matters-more-pass-rushing-prove-it

 

OK, so coming full circle, is it better to have the best offensive line or best defensive line in the NFL?

On this, the results are more clear. It's better to have the best offensive line. It just matters more. Given the attention and accolades that pass-rushers receive, this is somewhat surprising. But offenses across the league have a wider distribution of skill than defenses. This means that the best offenses tend to outperform the top defenses.

When in doubt in team building, it makes sense to lean toward the offense where an advantage is leveraged the most. And along the line of scrimmage is no different. Good pass blocking bests good pass rushing.

 

---

Team-by-team PBWR and PRWR breakdowns

2018 Regular-Season Pass Block Win Rate

TEAM	PBWR	TEAM	PBWR
1. Rams	62%	17. Steelers	48%
2. Packers	60%	18. Lions	47%
3. Chiefs	60%	19. Eagles	46%
4. Patriots	59%	20. Saints	46%
5. Browns	59%	21. Bucs	46%
6. Bears	58%	22. Broncos	45%
7. Bills	56%	23. Jaguars	45%
8. Seahawks	56%	24. Jets	44%
9. Panthers	56%	25. Titans	44%
10. Colts	55%	26. Bengals	44%
11. Ravens	54%	27. Giants	43%
12. Cowboys	51%	28. Vikings	43%
13. Chargers	51%	29. 49ers	42%
14. Falcons	51%	30. Raiders	41%
15. Redskins	50%	31. Dolphins	40%
16. Texans	50%	32. Cardinals	38%

2018 Regular-Season Pass Rush Win Rate

TEAM	PRWR	TEAM	PRWR
1. Panthers	62%	17. Bears	50%
2. Rams	61%	18. Giants	50%
3. Dolphins	60%	19. Browns	49%
4. Eagles	57%	20. Colts	49%
5. Bills	56%	21. Titans	48%
6. Steelers	56%	22. Chargers	47%
7. Falcons	56%	23. Broncos	47%
8. Chiefs	55%	24. Seahawks	47%
9. Redskins	55%	25. Cardinals	45%
10. Ravens	54%	26. Saints	44%
11. Packers	54%	27. Bucs	44%
12. 49ers	54%	28. Patriots	44%
13. Texans	53%	29. Jets	42%
14. Jaguars	53%	30. Vikings	41%
15. Cowboys	52%	31. Raiders	36%
16. Bengals	51%	32. Lions	32%

 

 

 

[MartinC]

On 6/15/2020 at 4:54 PM, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Good point.  I'd actually attribute a lot of this to just how athletic DTs and EDGE rushers have become over the years.  Add that to the fact that this has become a passing league, and most OLs will look pedestrian given the amount of pass-rushing talent that is currently in the league along the DL.

 

It's a short passing league. Ball comes out very quickly most of the time by design - that takes pressure off tackles. Watch some film from the 1980's say and look at the number of 7 step drops - you hardly every see a seven step drop these days.

 

You made a good point in a reply to me above in that I certainly don't do the grunt work to grade every right tackle in the league. So I really am in no position to say if Moses is average or above/below average. I do feel comfortable though saying RT is a position we need to upgrade. I have never been high on Moses - I always saw him as too passive and a waist bender with iffy footwork. He is likely currently the best tackle on our roster ... which I don't see as a good thing!

[wit33]

Put me in the corner as a Moses supporter. You’re not going to scheme around his skill set, but from my laymen view, he provides stability and the ability for the OC to game plan with expectation Moses will get the job done. Bias reflection, but I rarely feel Moses is getting abused to the point it’s a detriment to the team or needing extra help—This has immense value. 
 

The success of the Oline has a lot to do with the QB and scheme. 

[Conn]

Except that his penalties are because he's getting beaten or afraid he'll get beaten.

[wit33]

10 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Except that his penalties are because he's getting beaten or afraid he'll get beaten.

Do you know what is considered a good amount of penalties for a RT to have? I do agree from a perspective without data that Moses could stand to shave 3-5 penalties a year. 
 

My guess the average is 8 or 9. 

[Going Commando]

12 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Could be but some say a monster pass rush can mask secondary issues.  I guess will see. 

 

You can hide a lot with seven and eight man coverages, but still have breakdowns if your corners can't match up.  That's my biggest fear for the season.  The OL is more important, and our inexperienced QBs and WRs and RBs aren't as good as our DLs so they won't be able to hide OL sins as well as the DL will be able to hide sins in the back 7.  But the OL is better than the secondary IMO.  Scherff is a lot better than our best DB and Rouillier and Moses are decent starters.  Fuller and Collins are the only solid starters in our secondary IMO, and that group really needs to be like six deep in high level rotation players to function well.  And i think Charles is a better prospect than any young player in our secondary.  We're pretty bad at DB.

[RawRebel]

I'm scared Eagles are going to sign larry warford now preventing us from signing him. I'd feel much better if we had a more experienced offensive line going into the season. 

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

10 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

You can hide a lot with seven and eight man coverages, but still have breakdowns if your corners can't match up.  That's my biggest fear for the season.  The OL is more important, and our inexperienced QBs and WRs and RBs aren't as good as our DLs so they won't be able to hide OL sins as well as the DL will be able to hide sins in the back 7.  But the OL is better than the secondary IMO.  Scherff is a lot better than our best DB and Rouillier and Moses are decent starters.  Fuller and Collins are the only solid starters in our secondary IMO, and that group really needs to be like six deep in high level rotation players to function well.  

I'm actually bullish on the secondary.

 

At least when it comes to the starters.

 

Call it a gut feeling...🤷‍♂️

[Warhead36]

Fuller is legit and Moreau seemed to come on at the end of last year but behind them we're stupid thin at CB. And Collins is the only NFL caliber Safety on the roster(and as talented as he is even he has some significant limitations).

 

We'll probably be drafting DB in the first round next year.

[HTTRDynasty]

Keim article up on ESPN:

 

As Haskins lost weight and re-shaped his body, he also worked on short-area quickness via agility ropes and other drills. He's not going to scare opponents with his scrambling, but Haskins showed mobility last season and this can help him extend plays.

 

Avery connected Haskins with a sports psychologist for several phone sessions. Because Redskins offensive coordinator Scott Turner spent the past two years at Carolina, Spinner and Haskins went through all of the Panthers' film. They broke down the routes they like to throw and paired them up with the style of receivers Washington has -- Carolina's DJ Moore is a smaller, faster receiver similar to the Redskins' Terry McLaurin, for example. And, because Spinner spent time with four NFL franchises, he was familiar with the offense and could recognize plays and concepts.

 

The Redskins' coaches have seen the videos of Haskins working out, but those reveal only so much, considering there's no defense. However, they do provide clues.

 

"You can tell he's putting the work in away from the meeting time," Turner said. "You guys, I'm sure, have all seen the pictures. It looks like he's in great shape."

 

McLaurin, who played with Haskins at Ohio State, says the QB is having fun again. "I feel like a lot was thrown at him his first year and I'm not making any excuses for him at all, but I feel like just his focus is great right now."

 

Turner said he can measure the progress through quizzes as they watch film via videoconferences. They'll ask about the coverages and Haskins will shoot back the correct answer, also letting him know the clues he detected to guide him.

 

Haskins said he's still learning the offense, but, having been in one NFL offense already, he can translate the terminology easier. The West Coast system last season was all about words -- sometimes up to 16 in one play. Turner's system is numbers-based.

 

"The concepts are the same, the reads are the same, just told differently," Haskins said. "It's easier to regurgitate and be able to play faster because the offense we were in last year was West Coast and it was a lot of tags and a lot of longer playcalls in the huddle."

 

Rivera is encouraged by Haskins' approach. The young QB has texted him often, sometimes late at night, about various football questions. They spoke on the phone last week, discussing Haskins' progression.

 

"He is really taking what he and I talked about to heart," Rivera said of their initial talks in January. "You see those things you are looking for."

There's a reason.

 

"I want to be the face of the franchise," Haskins said, "and I'm working to do that."

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/40089/redskins-dwayne-haskins-im-going-to-deliver-year-2

 

[mistertim]

21 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Except that his penalties are because he's getting beaten or afraid he'll get beaten.

 

His penalties actually went down quite a bit from 2018 to 2019. Brandon Scherff actually had more penalties than Moses in fewer games. I don't think Moses is an outstanding RT, but I think people call him garbage are a bit over the top.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

7 hours ago, RawRebel said:

I'm scared Eagles are going to sign larry warford now preventing us from signing him. I'd feel much better if we had a more experienced offensive line going into the season. 

 

I'll help ease your uncertainty.  We aren't signing Warford.  The Eagles might, and they have cap room now, but they're $50 million OVER the cap in 2021.

 

So them signing him now means less rollover to 2021, which is good for us.  Actually...it's perfect for us.  We'll have insane cap space in 2021 and they'll have to cut half their team.

 

So you should be hoping the Eagles spend money now.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

On 6/15/2020 at 6:02 PM, MartinC said:

Then I’m scratching my head on being ranked 13th!!!

 

I would not have Moses ranked as a solid to good starter. I think he’s bottom third in the NFL. I do think we will be fine at LG-C-RG. OT however is a concern.

 

13 seems a bit high, but I'm not too surprised.  Donald Penn was our only real weak spot, and even then there were some assignments he was fine with.   Our depth played better as the season went along.  Geron and Wes Martin weren't poor in relief of Penn and Scherff having injuries.  That depth is probably what pushed us to 13.  Some teams have a backup come in and it's just a dumpster fire.

 

Remember when Lane Johnson got suspended and Ryan Kerrigan destroyed the Eagles rookie backup so much it was basically the game?

 

 

We don't have a bunch of world beaters and I don't expect us to be a Top 10 OL, but we don't have a bad unit in 2020.  2021 starts looking a little iffy with Roullier and Scherff as free agents, and Moses might be a cap casualty.

 

I can see our 2020 unit being close enough to league average that it doesn't hurt us.  Unfortunately it doesn't give us extra ability schematically to exploit what certain defenses do.  But this is a transition year to new coach, new scheme, seeing if the young QB is further developing.

 

We're poised to capitalize in free agency in 2021 if it looks like Haskins is legit.  Our o-line should play well enough to not hurt that, and it's deep enough to weather some injuries.

 

[MartinC]

54 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

His penalties actually went down quite a bit from 2018 to 2019. Brandon Scherff actually had more penalties than Moses in fewer games. I don't think Moses is an outstanding RT, but I think people call him garbage are a bit over the top.

 

 I would not call him garbage. But I absolutely think RT is a spot that could be and should be upgraded (though that's a debate for next offseason). 

[Conn]

That article from Keim detailing just how frequently Haskins' head is in the playbook and how much he's in contact with both Turner and Rivera is EXACTLY what we all wanted to read, I'm sure. The physical body transformation and workout vids are great, but we're all more interested in the progress of his mind and intangibles as a potential franchise QB, or at least that holds true for me. 

 

That article was football porn, man. I hope we have a real training camp and preseason to see it all play out and compare to last year's.

[wit33]

On 6/17/2020 at 12:57 PM, MartinC said:

 

 I would not call him garbage. But I absolutely think RT is a spot that could be and should be upgraded (though that's a debate for next offseason). 
 

 

 

After this season is the year to make a decision.
 

Some have been calling for his replacement for a while, but it just didn’t make sense on many levels— After this season he will be 30 and carry a $9.6mil cap and a dead cap hit of “only” $1.9mil. The deal appeared structured for next off season to be the decision year for him, which works perfectly as this year for all players is an evaluation year by Ron and company.