FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[mistertim]

9 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

For those without an Athletic subscription, it's worth it. Most of the writers are intelligent, rational, and informed...just ignore Jim Bowden and Grant Paulsen.

 

That being said I love Zampese's analysis--his work with Mayfield in 2018 and his performance in 2019 were night and day different. It give me great hope for Haskins.

 

I thought it was a really good article as well. One thing I liked is his focus on the lower body and not worrying too much about messing with the release, etc. 

 

I do have a question though, for those who know more than I do, especially those here who are or have been coaches. In the article Zampese talks about basically "curving" the dropback in the direction the QB is going to throw in so he doesn't have to swing his leg and then not fully have his hips and shoulders towards his target. That totally makes sense...but wouldn't that be something that would tip off a savvy defender as to where a pass is going? I wonder how Zampese coaches the footwork of changing direction when going through progressions, etc. Does he coach the really fast resetting of feet ala Peyton?

[Berggy9598]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I thought it was a really good article as well. One thing I liked is his focus on the lower body and not worrying too much about messing with the release, etc. 

 

I do have a question though, for those who know more than I do, especially those here who are or have been coaches. In the article Zampese talks about basically "curving" the dropback in the direction the QB is going to throw in so he doesn't have to swing his leg and then not fully have his hips and shoulders towards his target. That totally makes sense...but wouldn't that be something that would tip off a savvy defender as to where a pass is going? I wonder how Zampese coaches the footwork of changing direction when going through progressions, etc. Does he coach the really fast resetting of feet ala Peyton?

I think it's more about his feet than his body but I might be wrong. He's referring to very subtle movement to allow his right hip (in the case of a right handed QB) to subtly open up in the direction of his plant foot. I'm not sure I'm explaining it correctly but I'm sure there's someone here that can do a better job. 

[mistertim]

17 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said:

I think it's more about his feet than his body but I might be wrong. He's referring to very subtle movement to allow his right hip (in the case of a right handed QB) to subtly open up in the direction of his plant foot. I'm not sure I'm explaining it correctly but I'm sure there's someone here that can do a better job. 

 

I found a video of some guy named Peyton something or other talking about this and seeming to explain the same principle. No clue if he's credible or has any idea what he's talking about though. Looks sorta dorky so he may just be a paper tiger...

 

 

[joeken24]

Nice write up and pics. But I tell you what.....Mayfield's accuracy was 2nd to last in 2019 and 26th in 2018.  Now Zampese was said to have helped the offense in the second half of the 2018 season, but that wasn't confirmed. Anyway, Mayfield sucks IMO. Also IMO, if Haskins had Nick Chubb, OBJ and Jarvis Landry for two years, it would be playstation. With those same three dudes, Baker had 22 TD and 21 Int last year, so apparently he didn't learn anything from Ken. Or at least he didn't retain it. But to Zampese.....he coached another interception king in Cincinnati. Just sayin'. For Zampese to be deemed as a QB guru, weird that he was out of the league last year coaching in the Alliance league (huh?) As a matter of fact, looking at Zampese's time in the league, he hasn't been all that.  He was an offensive assistant with the Rams when they loss the SB to the Patriots. He became the pass game coordinator in 02 and the Rams offense struggled along with a losing season. He was also fired by the Bengal (another huh?). So we'll see about this particular hire. I'm also looking side eyed at a couple of other hires like Vincent Rivera and Luke Del Rio (last names sound familiar?). These two are responsible for analyzing game film and pretty much getting the Redskins' prepared for their opponent from a situational football standpoint. This is kind of the first line of defense for the Redskins. You hear Larry Michael ask the defense what happened on the 79 yard TD pass against you guys? The player says yea that was something we didn't see in the film but we adjusted later on.....there ya go! The quality control guy probably missed a tendency. I could be totally off, but hey, its extreme right?

[Berggy9598]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

I found a video of some guy named Peyton something or other talking about this and seeming to explain the same principle. No clue if he's credible or has any idea what he's talking about though. Looks sorta dorky so he may just be a paper tiger...

 

 

He shot 30 commercials in the time it took you to find that video

[Skinsinparadise]

I am higher on our receiver crew than most NFL observer types, ditto our RBs.  But the O line does concern me.    I keep bringing up the NY Giants on that front because their offense was slowed by their O line for years but in my view it has been rebuilt and is distinctly superior to ours now.  I think upgrading the O line might be the obvious 2021 off season mission.

 

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/nfl-expert-no-quarterback-worse-situation-dwayne-haskins

...During a recent episode of the Around the NFL podcast, Rosenthal delivered the following scorching line of analysis.

"No quarterback in the league, I think if you look at whole situation — offensive line, coach, receivers, everything — I don't know if anyone has a worse situation than Dwayne Haskins," he said. "He is set up to fail."

 

Much like when ESPN's Bill Barnwell labeled Haskins a "loser" of the offseason a few weeks ago, Rosenthal's criticism is grounded. Well, it is on the surface, anyway.

As the presumptive starter, Haskins will largely be tasked with turning around an offense that scored the fewest points in the sport last year for a team that went 3-13. That's a bad situation.

But is it really the worst in the league? And is he being set up to fail? Those statements feel hyperbolic. 

Haskins' new head coach, for one, appears to fully be in the QB's corner. This is the same head coach who supported Cam Newton through everything Newton faced in Carolina. Ron Rivera is a very important part of the equation, as is the presence of offensive coordinator Scott Turner.

As for the offense itself, yes, it's a weak one on paper. However, it's not like the organization has completely ignored it the last few months.

Up front, they signed Cornelius Lucas and drafted Saahdiq Charles in an attempt to shore up left tackle as best as they could. As for the skill positions, they drafted Antonio Gibson and Antonio Gandy-Golden, and brought in a few other role players to round out running back and tight end. They even made a heavy run at Amari Cooper, before ultimately losing out to the Cowboys for his services.

Overall, the Redskins seem ready to let Haskins attack 2020, a major gesture for a franchise that's entering a new era and easily could've moved on from him.

That alone suggests they aren't exactly setting him up to fail like Rosenthal said; instead, they're setting him up to determine his own future. The rest will be up to him, which is all any pro could ever want. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

10 hours ago, joeken24 said:

Nice write up and pics. But I tell you what.....Mayfield's accuracy was 2nd to last in 2019 and 26th in 2018.  Now Zampese was said to have helped the offense in the second half of the 2018 season, but that wasn't confirmed. Anyway, Mayfield sucks IMO. Also IMO, if Haskins had Nick Chubb, OBJ and Jarvis Landry for two years, it would be playstation. With those same three dudes, Baker had 22 TD and 21 Int last year, so apparently he didn't learn anything from Ken. Or at least he didn't retain it. But to Zampese.....he coached another interception king in Cincinnati. Just sayin'. For Zampese to be deemed as a QB guru, weird that he was out of the league last year coaching in the Alliance league (huh?) As a matter of fact, looking at Zampese's time in the league, he hasn't been all that.  He was an offensive assistant with the Rams when they loss the SB to the Patriots. He became the pass game coordinator in 02 and the Rams offense struggled along with a losing season. He was also fired by the Bengal (another huh?). So we'll see about this particular hire. I'm also looking side eyed at a couple of other hires like Vincent Rivera and Luke Del Rio (last names sound familiar?). These two are responsible for analyzing game film and pretty much getting the Redskins' prepared for their opponent from a situational football standpoint. This is kind of the first line of defense for the Redskins. You hear Larry Michael ask the defense what happened on the 79 yard TD pass against you guys? The player says yea that was something we didn't see in the film but we adjusted later on.....there ya go! The quality control guy probably missed a tendency. I could be totally off, but hey, its extreme right?

 

I too am not buying the idea that Zampese can be the fix it man. The other night I found the Lions game on YouTube, Haskins' first win. I remember him playing well at the end but this was Tim Tebow without the heroics.  Lions handed the game with turnovers but Haskins was missing guys all over the field the entire game.  He did hit Terry late on a huge play but he was bailed out by a great catch.  I didn't find any complete late season games, I know he played much better at the end of the season. But you just can't succeed if your QB does not hit what he is throwing at, this was always the concern with Dwayne and nothing has changed my mind. 

 

So you give him a new offense without a traditional off season, throw him out there with no NFL TE, a bad OL and iffy receivers other than Terry and yeah this won't go well.  I honestly expect him to lose his job to Kyle Allen at some point.  

[Est.1974]

7 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I honestly expect him to lose his job to Kyle Allen at some point.  

Yep that is a distinct possibility. Kyle Allen doesn’t get much of a mention in the discussion at present, but without question he’s right on Haskins’ back as very close competition.

[mistertim]

22 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Yep that is a distinct possibility. Kyle Allen doesn’t get much of a mention in the discussion at present, but without question he’s right on Haskins’ back as very close competition.

 

Outside of Haskins absolutely bombing for the first half of the season I don't really see why, to be honest. Allen last season was one of the most inconsistent QBs I've ever watched. He'd look like Peyton Manning one game and then Ryan Leaf the next, and this happened throughout the season...there was no real upward or downward trajectory for him. Haskins is far superior from a pure talent standpoint (though Allen is a bit better outside of the pocket and throwing on the run) and at least showed an upward trajectory at the end. If Allen plays IMO that means we're restarting our QB search, because I've never seen any indication from his play that he's anyone's actual answer for a franchise QB.

[Darrell Green Fan]

4 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Outside of Haskins absolutely bombing for the first half of the season I don't really see why, to be honest. Allen last season was one of the most inconsistent QBs I've ever watched. He'd look like Peyton Manning one game and then Ryan Leaf the next, and this happened throughout the season...there was no real upward or downward trajectory for him. Haskins is far superior from a pure talent standpoint (though Allen is a bit better outside of the pocket and throwing on the run) and at least showed an upward trajectory at the end. If Allen plays IMO that means we're restarting our QB search, because I've never seen any indication from his play that he's anyone's actual answer for a franchise QB.

 

I'm no Allen fan, his ceiling is way too low.  But i don't understand how Haskins gets a pass for his inconsistent play because he was a rookie but Allen does not get this same benefit.  

[Fresh8686]

2 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I'm no Allen fan, his ceiling is way too low.  But i don't understand how Haskins gets a pass for his inconsistent play because he was a rookie but Allen does not get this same benefit.  

 

It's most likely because Haskins has shown a clear and defined upward trend over the course of last season, while Kyle Allen was up and down.

 

You really should re-watch Haskins' last couple games, they are free to re-watch with the NFL All-Access Pass or whatever they called it being open for all till the end of July.

[Darrell Green Fan]

7 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:

 

It's most likely because Haskins has shown a clear and defined upward trend over the course of last season, while Kyle Allen was up and down.

 

You really should re-watch Haskins' last couple games, they are free to re-watch with the NFL All-Access Pass or whatever they called it being open for all till the end of July.

 I haven't bothered to with All-Access and prefer to watch on the big screen on YouTube.  Just surprised those games aren't posted, seems like everything is on YouTube.  

[Fresh8686]

11 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 I haven't bothered to with All-Access and prefer to watch on the big screen on YouTube.  Just surprised those games aren't posted, seems like everything is on YouTube.  

 

I feel you and I'd prefer YouTube as well. But, I've really been enjoying having access to coaches film and that kind of makes navigating their janky ass menus worth the time.

[mistertim]

51 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:

 

It's most likely because Haskins has shown a clear and defined upward trend over the course of last season, while Kyle Allen was up and down.

 

You really should re-watch Haskins' last couple games, they are free to re-watch with the NFL All-Access Pass or whatever they called it being open for all till the end of July.

 

Yeah this was basically my point on Allen as well. He's not bad, and he showed flashes of great play at times, but he was "consistently inconsistent" in that he never showed any clear trajectory. He was killing it one game and then looking like the worst QB in the  NFL the next, and that was happening throughout the season.

 

Even if it was in a small sample size, at least Haskins showed a pretty clear upward trajectory at the end of last season and he has physical gifts and tools that Allen simply will never have. I think we'll roll with Haskins this season unless he completely busts out.

 

As I said before, IMO if Allen replaces Haskins that means we're starting over on our QB search most likely. In that case, I'd rather put Nick Sundberg in at QB and lose out to get Trevor Lawrence.   

[Darrell Green Fan]

49 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah this was basically my point on Allen as well. He's not bad, and he showed flashes of great play at times, but he was "consistently inconsistent" in that he never showed any clear trajectory. He was killing it one game and then looking like the worst QB in the  NFL the next, and that was happening throughout the season.

 

Even if it was in a small sample size, at least Haskins showed a pretty clear upward trajectory at the end of last season and he has physical gifts and tools that Allen simply will never have. I think we'll roll with Haskins this season unless he completely busts out.

 

As I said before, IMO if Allen replaces Haskins that means we're starting over on our QB search most likely. In that case, I'd rather put Nick Sundberg in at QB and lose out to get Trevor Lawrence.   

 

Oh I get the reason for optimism but that's just it, it was a very small sample size on Haskins. Just a word of caution.  Personally I don't ever see him being a QB good enough to build around, and as most people understand the better the QB the better your chances for lasting success.  A few games at the end of the season won't change my opinion but I'd be thrilled to be wrong and can't hate on fans who are optimistic.   He clearly has the arm strength but of course on the list of attributes arm strength is down the list with accuracy near the top.  

[mistertim]

19 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Oh I get the reason for optimism but that's just it, it was a very small sample size on Haskins. Just a word of caution.  Personally I don't ever see him being a QB good enough to build around, and as most people understand the better the QB the better your chances for lasting success.  A few games at the end of the season won't change my opinion but I'd be thrilled to be wrong and can't hate on fans who are optimistic.   He clearly has the arm strength but of course on the list of attributes arm strength is down the list with accuracy near the top.  

 

I pretty much agree. I'm not a Haskins "homer" or anything. I was actually against us drafting him and wasn't surprised at all when he struggled mightily in the beginning last season. However, watching him over the last few games and re-watching those games I do see a lot of improvement in several areas, though he still has some serious mechanical issues that need to be worked on. I was pleasantly surprised by how he ended the season. I'm hopeful but cautiously so.

[HTTRDynasty]

Just posting this to show his maturity:

 

 

[HTTRDynasty]

12 hours ago, joeken24 said:

Nice write up and pics. But I tell you what.....Mayfield's accuracy was 2nd to last in 2019 and 26th in 2018.

 

Huh?

 

[joeken24]

37 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Huh?

 

Accuracy %  is apparently broken down into categories. I pulled my info from here: https://dawgpounddaily.com/2020/06/02/cleveland-browns-quarterback-baker-mayfield-accurate-believed/

Either way, I still think Mayfield sucks.

I guess this is his overall ranking according to Fox sports. Here I click on his overall completion percentage for 2019:

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/stats?season=2019&week=100&category=PASSING&opp=0&sort=10&qualified=1&sortOrder=0&page=1

He ranks 41st.

 

[HTTRDynasty]

8 minutes ago, joeken24 said:

Accuracy %  is apparently broken down into categories. I pulled my info from here: https://dawgpounddaily.com/2020/06/02/cleveland-browns-quarterback-baker-mayfield-accurate-believed/

Either way, I still think Mayfield sucks.

I guess this is his overall ranking according to Fox sports. Here I click on his overall completion percentage for 2019:

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/stats?season=2019&week=100&category=PASSING&opp=0&sort=10&qualified=1&sortOrder=0&page=1

He ranks 41st.

 

 

That tweet in the first article is wrong.  As for the 2nd site, completion percentage does not = accuracy.

 

Mayfield ranked 6th in overall accuracy % in 2018, per PFF.  He ranked 4th in their Accuracy+ metric, which identifies perfect throws that allow a receiver to get the maximum YAC.

 

[joeken24]

3 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I too am not buying the idea that Zampese can be the fix it man. The other night I found the Lions game on YouTube, Haskins' first win. I remember him playing well at the end but this was Tim Tebow without the heroics.  Lions handed the game with turnovers but Haskins was missing guys all over the field the entire game.  He did hit Terry late on a huge play but he was bailed out by a great catch.  I didn't find any complete late season games, I know he played much better at the end of the season. But you just can't succeed if your QB does not hit what he is throwing at, this was always the concern with Dwayne and nothing has changed my mind. 

 

So you give him a new offense without a traditional off season, throw him out there with no NFL TE, a bad OL and iffy receivers other than Terry and yeah this won't go well.  I honestly expect him to lose his job to Kyle Allen at some point.  

I am not completely buying Zampese. But I will say that I do think Haskins improves. And Tim Tebow can't put a candle up to Haskins so I don't agree with mention. Haskins admitted to being a jacked up throughout all last year for the most part. And why not? You're playing with no confidence, no reputable, creative offense to speak of and no line. It was a mess all around. So Zampese comes in and works with Haskins. But I don't think it will be about Haskin's throwing motion. I think it will be more about his footwork which a lot of QB have to work on constantly. Particularly QBs with strong arms. Hopefully they are a match made in heaven and we end up with our first definitive franchise QB in recent history.

[ExoDus84]

5 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Yep that is a distinct possibility. Kyle Allen doesn’t get much of a mention in the discussion at present, but without question he’s right on Haskins’ back as very close competition.

 

Allen and Haskins were two of the worst graded QB's in the league last season. If they both haven't made significant strides this offseason, then their "battle" in training camp could look a little like this:

 

[Anselmheifer]

 

1 hour ago, ExoDus84 said:

 

Allen and Haskins were two of the worst graded QB's in the league last season. If they both haven't made significant strides this offseason, then their "battle" in training camp could look a little like this:

 

Haskins was a rookie with no offensive line,  no head coach buy in, no TE, and his best WR was a rookie put up 919 yards on 58 receptions.
 

I think we are all very excited about Terry McLaurin, and he could become an all pro, but Haskins was in an awful situation last year. He played very well in those last four games, granted, against less than stellar defenses. I think there’s more reason to be hopeful about Haskins than there is to be hopeful about Allen.

 

I think that if we have Haskins the OL and RB/TE/WR corps we gave Cousins, that we could get a very similar level of production out of Haskins in 2021. 
 

2021 looks like it could be our year if things break right. And by that, I don’t mean that we have a flash in the pan good year. I mean that we become relevant again for a while. 

[bowhunter]

11 hours ago, Fresh8686 said:

 

 over the course of last season, while Kyle Allen was up and down.

 

I remember having a young QB like that. He'd look like a world killer, and then get benched 2 games later for throwing pics left and right. I think we "Liked that"

[MartinC]

12 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 I haven't bothered to with All-Access and prefer to watch on the big screen on YouTube.  Just surprised those games aren't posted, seems like everything is on YouTube.  

NFL Gamepass is free right now. All 22 shows a lot you don’t see on the broadcast. 

9 hours ago, ExoDus84 said:

 

Allen and Haskins were two of the worst graded QB's in the league last season. If they both haven't made significant strides this offseason, then their "battle" in training camp could look a little like this:

 

 

From the period he was named starter to the end of the season Haskins was the 10th rated QB in the league as per PFF. That’s a small sample size and ratings can be subjective - but if you can’t see progress game to game from Haskins in those starts I don’t know what to tell you.

 

Progress from that base is still unknown of course.