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FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State


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10 hours ago, wit33 said:

@Skinsinparadise

 

What amount of hours per day and days per year must a QB work to be considered a hard worker? Does it just come down to the local reporter saying a player is the first one in and out? 
 

My thoughts are that some are able to create, learn, and evolve a system that works for them. Id just love to see raw data and the day to day system of QBs to compare. 
 

Some people prefer achieving “flow” through a calendar year of work versus grinding each day. I like to compare Kobe and Lebron in this respect— Kobe being the relentless day to day worker and Lebron being a guy wanting to achieve flow (disclaimer, this is all conjecture).

 

The argument from me isn’t working hard, but trying to explore what that means. As it is right now, most fans assume the good to great QBs all must work the similar amounts of hours in a day or year. 

 

It's a good question for a coach.  I got no idea what they are looking for.  Arians from what I recall didn't quantify it but he didn't seem to have a hard time figuring out which of his QBs worked hard and which didn't. 

 

I don't think there was much ambiguity that some in that building last year (coaches and FO people) didn't think Haskins was working as hard as they'd like.  And there were several variations of those stories which has been posted about here.   Doug, Scott Turner and Rivera all heavily hinted about wanting that to change.  As for how they all gauged it?  I don't really care. 

 

Conversely, the stories now all point to onward and upward and Haskins is killing it as for off season preparation.  As to how that's defined?   Scott Turner, Rivera among others referred to him putting in the work.  I'll trust their ability to judge which players are working hard.   I have employees who work for me.  I deal with them almost every day, it's not hard for me to guage who works hard and who doesn't. 

 

Back to Haskins, I take every ounce of the positivity seriously.  It's painting a great picture. 

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On 6/18/2020 at 10:45 AM, wit33 said:

@Skinsinparadise

 

What amount of hours per day and days per year must a QB work to be considered a hard worker? Does it just come down to the local reporter saying a player is the first one in and out? 
 

My thoughts are that some are able to create, learn, and evolve a system that works for them. Id just love to see raw data and the day to day system of QBs to compare. 
 

Some people prefer achieving “flow” through a calendar year of work versus grinding each day. I like to compare Kobe and Lebron in this respect— Kobe being the relentless day to day worker and Lebron being a guy wanting to achieve flow (disclaimer, this is all conjecture).

 

The argument from me isn’t working hard, but trying to explore what that means. As it is right now, most fans assume the good to great QBs all must work the similar amounts of hours in a day or year. 

Not directed at me. I would say probably a couple of reporters, a few proper pics/vids that might support the narrative desired and results that support the narrative.

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3 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

Not directed at me. I would say probably a couple of reporters, a few proper pics/vids that might support the narrative desired and results that support the narrative.


This 100%. 

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Josh Rosen has been put through the wringer in his first two NFL seasons — operating behind two of the worst pass-blocking offensive lines of the past decade with little to work with in the way of receiving options. Sam Darnold has been in a similar boat, though to a lesser extent, with the New York Jets. That creates a tough decision for NFL front offices when it comes to evaluating their young quarterbacks. How long do you stick with a player who is struggling on the field while excusing those poor performances due to their supporting cast?

 

In Rosen’s case, the Arizona Cardinals decided the answer was one year, and the Miami Dolphins decided to give him just an additional three games before handing the reins back over to Ryan Fitzpatrick in 2019. Darnold has certainly produced more reason for optimism than Rosen, but his situation has been better and his 64.6 overall grade since the start of the 2018 season still ranks just 29th among the 32 quarterbacks with 1,000 or more offensive snaps over that stretch. He now enters his third season with New York, with uncertainty still lingering along the offensive line and at wide receiver.

 

I bring up those cases because it shows there is no set answer to how long a team will give a young quarterback, and similarly to Rosen and Darnold, Dwayne Haskins has what appears to be a brutal offensive environment in store for him in 2020 with the Washington Redskins. There were already those who wanted to bring in a free agent quarterback this offseason in Washington — perhaps reuniting Cam Newton with Ron Rivera. If Haskins falls flat in 2020 with the lack of talent around him, he might not get another chance.

 

THE DISCLAIMER: TERRY MCLAURIN IS VERY GOOD AT FOOTBALL

PFF's Austin Gayle broke down Terry McLaurin’s outstanding rookie season earlier this offseason, so I won’t go into too much depth here. This table — listing the highest receiving grades for any rookie wide receiver in the past decade with 250 or more routes — tells the story of what we should expect from McLaurin moving forward, though.

 

Highest Receiving Grades for Rookie WRs | Since 2010
Receiver Year Receiving Grade
Odell Beckham Jr. 2014 91.2
Terry McLaurin 2019 86.5
Keenan Allen 2013 86.4
Michael Thomas 2016 86.3
Mike Evans 2014 84.0
A.J. Brown 2019 80.9
Chris Godwin 2017 80.4
Doug Baldwin 2011 80.4
Stefon Diggs 2015 78.9
Tyreek Hill 2016 78.7

*Among players who ran 250 or more routes

 

There is not a single miss in that top 10. If a wideout balls out like McLaurin did as a rookie — particularly in a shaky offense like the Redskins had in 2019 – there’s a good chance they're going to continue to play at a high level for years to come. McLaurin’s speed, route-running and releases make him a true No. 1 option, capable of winning in all areas of the field. If nothing else, Haskins has that to work with.

 

THE OPTIONS BEHIND MCLAURIN IN THE PASSING GAME LEAVE A LOT TO BE DESIRED

The only two wide receivers or tight ends to ever catch more than 30 passes in a single season currently on the Redskins’ roster are McLaurin last season and Richard Rodgers (58 receptions in 2015 with the Green Bay Packers). It’s not as if Washington is relying on a lot of high draft picks to make up for that lack of experience, either.

 

Steven Sims figures to play a large role after a strong rookie showing for a 2019 undrafted free agent out of Kansas. Kelvin Harmon should factor in prominently to the passing offense as well — a sixth-round pick in the 2019 NFL Draft. You go down the list from Trey Quinn (seventh-round pick out of SMU in 2018) to Antonio Gandy-Golden (fourth-round pick out of Liberty in the 2020 NFL Draft), and it becomes abundantly clear that Washington needs something big out of one of these mid-to-late round shots, similar to the gold they struck with McLaurin in the third round of the 2019 NFL Draft. The highest-selected player of the bunch is Antonio Gibson, and he’s listed on the Redskins’ roster as a running back right now.

 

PFF data scientist Timo Riske looked at historical draft success at offensive positions back in February, and this is what he found at the wide receiver position.

Pick Top 3 2nd Round 3rd Round 4th Round
Chance at stud (90th percentile) 32.7% 17.6% 9.2% 4.8%
Chance at starter (65th percentile) 64.3% 52.8% 41.4% 32.1%

 

Those round designations indicate picks at the beginning of each round, and it shows that the Redskins beat the odds by getting what appears to be a stud in McLaurin in the middle of the third round. They’ll have to beat the odds again to get another starting-caliber wide receiver from this group, and given the depth chart of veteran options at tight end, it appears unlikely that Haskins will be getting much help there, either.

 

THE LEFT SIDE OF WASHINGTON’S OFFENSIVE LINE LOOKS SHAKY AT BEST

As of right now, it’s probably safest to project Cornelius Lucas at left tackle and Wes Schweitzer at left guard for the Redskins next season. Lucas played reasonably well in a partial season of starting action with the Chicago Bears in 2019, earning a 72.2 overall grade, but he has played over 500 snaps just twice in his six-year career and has never started an entire season. Schweitzer, on the other hand, does have multiple seasons of starting experience under his belt, but he’s coming off a 2019 campaign where his 56.4 overall grade ranked just 53rd out of 70 guards with at least 500 offensive snaps.

WattSchweitzer.gif

 

In the span of one drive, Schweitzer got beat badly inside three times by the same move from J.J. Watt. To be fair, a one-on-one matchup with Watt is a tough job for any guard, but these struggles in pass protection weren’t an isolated incident.

 

Wes Martin or Saahdiq Charles could fill into the tackle and guard spots, respectively, but there is a reason Lucas and Schweitzer are being penciled in right now. Martin earned a 37.0 pass-blocking grade in five starts as a rookie last season, and PFF’s lead draft analyst Mike Renner said of Charles in the 2020 PFF Draft Guide, “With how unpolished he is, Charles’ early declaration was one of the most surprising in the entire draft class. He simply cannot be thrust into a starting role as a rookie without getting toasted, and that immediately drops his stock considerably down boards.” At best, he’s a project who can turn into a quality starter a few years down the road in our eyes.

 

If you look across the entire projected starting offensive line, the only projected starter who can comfortably be considered above average is Brandon Scherff. The last time he started 16 games was back in 2016. It’s hard not to question the kind of protection that Haskins will be getting in the pocket in 2020.

 

WHAT CAN WASHINGTON STILL DO?

Per Over the Cap, the Redskins still have more than $36 million in cap space heading into next season — second in the NFL to only the Cleveland Browns. If they don’t do anything to give Haskins more help, they’re doing it wrong. He is set up to fail in this offense as it is right now.

 

The first place to look would be the current crop of wide receivers who are either suspended or dealing with legal troubles, headed by none other than Antonio Brown. There is no question that Brown is one of the premier on-field talents at wide receiver in the NFL. From 2010 to 2018, his 94.4 PFF grade ranked second behind only Julio Jones among all wide receivers. Beyond all the toe-tapping, route-running and catching-of-the-football prowess he brings to the receiving room, Brown just commands attention from a secondary.

 

JuJu_Benefitting_from_AB.gif

 

The free safety on this play clearly has AB as priority number one, leaving things open for Ben Roethlisberger to hit JuJu Smith-Schuster down the seam. There’s no reason to think he couldn’t similarly open things up for McLaurin and company. Adding to the hypothetical is the fact that there’s already some movement behind the Brown-to-Washington connection following an offseason workout with Haskins.

 

This isn’t purely an on-field decision, though. If that were the case, Brown would still be in Pittsburgh. There are off-field concerns that need to be weighed — as there is with other options such as Martavis Bryant and Josh Gordon — but the Redskins need more talent at wide receiver. Similarly, attacking high-level veteran options along the line, such as Jason Peters and Larry Warford, wouldn’t be a bad use of that remaining cap space.

 

The worst thing a team can do with a highly drafted young quarterback is neglect to build an offense around them. Chase Young is a generational (often overused but a correct application in this case) talent on the edge, but he’s not going to help Haskins keep from sinking next season. The highest-profile receiver Washington brought in this offseason in free agency was Cody Latimer. Along the line, their solutions in free agency were question marks in Lucas and Schweitzer. Their highest-drafted offensive weapon was Gibson, a talented player but one whose best position may be running back in the NFL.

 

Haskins’ rookie season wasn’t perfect by any means, but he showed some reasons to at least want to see what he has to offer in a full campaign as the starter. For it to work, the Redskins must build around him. They didn’t do enough of that this offseason. It’s hard to see a path for success for Haskins and this Redskins’ offense in 2020, and that could mean a premature ending to his tenure as the starting quarterback in Washington.

 

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8 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:
 

 

 

 

Quoting only the twitter link instead of the whole thing cause it's a lot.

 

I never know what to see when I read a PFF article on Haskins.  I think there are two PFF camps divided on him.  One hates him and thinks he'll bust hard, and then other loves him and thinks he's got some serious potential.

 

This article is rather doom and gloom.  So much so they think we should have passed on the universally regarded best player in the draft (Chase Young).

 

They've got us going from their grade of 13th best OL, to...one of the worst in the league?  The only difference is Ereck Flowers, but maybe they think Flowers is just that dominant?  Surely they can't think the LT options of needs-to-retire-Donald-Penn and Geron Christian is that much better than the LT options of Geron Christian and Cornelius Lucas or Saadiq Charles?

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16 hours ago, Darth Tater said:

Not directed at me. I would say probably a couple of reporters, a few proper pics/vids that might support the narrative desired and results that support the narrative.

 

Usually from what I observed its the player's coaches hyping it to reporters or leaking the opposite.

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9 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Quoting only the twitter link instead of the whole thing cause it's a lot.

 

I never know what to see when I read a PFF article on Haskins.  I think there are two PFF camps divided on him.  One hates him and thinks he'll bust hard, and then other loves him and thinks he's got some serious potential.

 

This article is rather doom and gloom.  So much so they think we should have passed on the universally regarded best player in the draft (Chase Young).

 

They've got us going from their grade of 13th best OL, to...one of the worst in the league?  The only difference is Ereck Flowers, but maybe they think Flowers is just that dominant?  Surely they can't think the LT options of needs-to-retire-Donald-Penn and Geron Christian is that much better than the LT options of Geron Christian and Cornelius Lucas or Saadiq Charles?


Yeah, it’s actually pretty amusing. I feel like I’m flipping a coin whenever I see a Haskins’ PFF article. 
 

But I actually think this article is pretty neutral. I agree they are magnifying the “downgrade” in OL to a suspicious degree, but I think the writer is justified in saying the staff didn’t do enough to put Haskins in a position to achieve a high percentage chance of success. Not like Denver did with Lock or Arizona did with Murray - not even close. I understand the coaches want to see what we have in our young guys, but if they fall flat on their face, it will impede Haskins’ development. 

 

I think he’s in a better situation than Rosen and Darnold were heading into their second seasons, but it could have been much better. 
 

 

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I’m most confident in the run game next year and that’s a great support in itself for Haskins. If Terry makes another jump to bordering elite status I don’t see an alarming issue with the situation overall next season for Haskins. 
 

Run game and Terry all other pieces will support these two pillars. 

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Did PFF seriously suggest that we sign Antonio Brown? I mean, the dude is amazingly talented but he's clearly become a complete headcase and a liability for whoever signs him. I'd stay far away. I also don't see a guy like Rivera going in that direction...but then again he did deal pretty well with Cam Newton for many years. Cam isn't as much of a pure headcase as AB, but he definitely has a strong personality and a flair for the dramatic. 

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On 6/20/2020 at 2:23 AM, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Quoting only the twitter link instead of the whole thing cause it's a lot.

 

I never know what to see when I read a PFF article on Haskins.  I think there are two PFF camps divided on him.  One hates him and thinks he'll bust hard, and then other loves him and thinks he's got some serious potential.

 

This article is rather doom and gloom.  So much so they think we should have passed on the universally regarded best player in the draft (Chase Young).

 

They've got us going from their grade of 13th best OL, to...one of the worst in the league?  The only difference is Ereck Flowers, but maybe they think Flowers is just that dominant?  Surely they can't think the LT options of needs-to-retire-Donald-Penn and Geron Christian is that much better than the LT options of Geron Christian and Cornelius Lucas or Saadiq Charles?

 

I've make similar comments as to PFF on Haskins.  They go on a wild run with Haskins.  Some of their writers clearly think he's likely going to be a bust and we were fools not to take Tua.  And another group who think he's on the verge of being really good.  And every now and then they run with a story that depicts one of those two narratives.

 

As for the O line, I don't think their pessimism is that wild albeit maybe a bit exaggerated.  Football Outsiders had us as the 2nd worst pass blocking in the league last year.   They gave up 50 sacks.  Most of the metric type outfits seem to value pass blocking over run blocking. 

 

Penn wasn't great but he's a professional veteran LT.  Flowers was above average.  The left side is still the most important side to be good at albeit its not as big of a difference in years past versus the import of the right side.  Scherff again got hurt (I am a Scherff guy so am not down on him) so do we start looking at RG as a worry spot injury wise?   Often guys who have multiple issues with drugs in college, aren't per se safe bets to stay out of trouble in the NFL although they tend to swear it's behind them when they enter the NFL -- see R. Gregory among others who dropped in the draft for similar reasons.  Though the Honey Badger did overcome that rap.   Wes Martin in limited snaps had an atrocious pass blocking score from PFF.  And the other Wes is considered by most a backup. 

 

Could it all come together for the O line?  Sure.  But on paper, I don't think our O line stacks well versus many teams especially within our own division.  I think if Charles though can stay out of trouble, it's possible that the O line surprises.  I suspect next off season though we attack the O line hard.  

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20 hours ago, wit33 said:

I’m most confident in the run game next year and that’s a great support in itself for Haskins. If Terry makes another jump to bordering elite status I don’t see an alarming issue with the situation overall next season for Haskins. 
 

Run game and Terry all other pieces will support these two pillars. 

 

I think the pundit types underestimate this team's running game and WRs.  The critics IMO might be on the money though about the team's O line and TE spot.  Not that I think the O line and TE is hopeless but on paper it doesn't look hot -- things need to break right otherwise both spots could be weak.

 

If Guice could stay healthy, I think he's a top 5 back in the league.  I am among the crazies 😀 before that draft who thought he was on par with Barkley.  Draft geeks I respect like Ledyard felt the same.  To me he's a superstar if he can stay healthy granted that's a big if.  Granted I don't think I had a pre-draft man crush bigger than I did on Guice so I might be a bit biased.  I was also a big Antonio Gibson guy before the last draft so I love him in the hybrid role in a 2 back formation that I suspect we will see a lot this season.  Peterson is a legend.  If these guys stay healthy I think it's the best backfield in the league or close enough to being that.  B. Love is another stud but from what some of the beat guys have said, he might not be ready. 

 

McLaurin is a superstar in the making IMO.  And Sims I think will blossom into a really good one. I was a big Harmon guy before that draft.  I like Gandy-Golden.  I think the Z spot will end up at least OK.

 

As for TE, I wasn't a big Moss guy before the draft.  But as an undrafted FA, that was a good get.   I am intrigued by him some.  Hentges is all right.  Otherwise to me TE is yawn.  I think that gets fixed next season in a draft that looks stacked at that spot. 

 

As for O line, I suspect we will be bad a LG.  I don't think much of Geron Christian.  To me the wildcard is S. Charles.  Good player in college, quick feet, albeit he has short arms for LT and is inconsistent but could end up a good one.  But he dropped for a reason so he needs to stay out of trouble.

 

That's my long winded way of saying for Haskins to end up with a good supporting cast to me the likely X factors are Guice and S. Charles. 

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43 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

What do we do at QB if the season is cancelled and by all means end up with the first pick via lottery? Is Haskins development going to be ruined?

Pull a reverse RG3 and stockpile picks. If the NFL is cancelled then college football is too and the entire thing is more of a crapshoot than ever, so might as well get more rolls of the die.

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2 hours ago, JoggingGod said:

What do we do at QB if the season is cancelled and by all means end up with the first pick via lottery? Is Haskins development going to be ruined?


Stay at 1 and pick Penei Sewell. We’d have a generational RDE and LT and a true WR1. That’s a pretty good starting point. Penei is absolutely worth that pick.

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4 hours ago, JoggingGod said:

What do we do at QB if the season is cancelled and by all means end up with the first pick via lottery? Is Haskins development going to be ruined?


If the coaches like what they’ve seen out of Haskins in meetings and in his workouts, they should trade back for a massive haul, to whatever team wants Lawrence. Then draft Sewell, Chase or Parsons with their first pick. 

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It's weird to think this but in my opinion the success of the offense hinges largely on Charles at LT. I don't trust Lucas and as we all know, protecting blindside is the key. If Charles can come in, win the job and thrive then I think it makes the entire line better. Either of the Wes' don't have to worry too much about kicking outside to help and can thrive in keeping the interior clean.

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7 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:


Stay at 1 and pick Penei Sewell. We’d have a generational RDE and LT and a true WR1. That’s a pretty good starting point. Penei is absolutely worth that pick.

 

Sewell would be a godsend.  IMO Sewell >> Lachey, Jacoby, Trent, C. Samuels.  He's the freak version of O line similar to what Chase was to the D line this draft. 

 

I got no problems at all with how they approached this off season.  I'd rather not full the cap up with junk like the predecessor who ran the team.   The goal shouldn't be 8-8.    Take 2 steps back to take 5 steps ahead later.  Kyle Smith and Rivera IMO are off to a hot start. 

 

5 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:


If the coaches like what they’ve seen out of Haskins in meetings and in his workouts, they should trade back for a massive haul, to whatever team wants Lawrence. Then draft Sewell, Chase or Parsons with their first pick. 

 

Love all three players and love them in the order of how you listed them.  Something poetic about drafting another Chase albeit this time it's the last name Chase versus first name.   Some before the previous draft liked to say Jeudy is another Beckham.  I liked Jeudy but to me Chase is more in that Beckham mold -- coincidentally both LSU players.

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5 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:


If the coaches like what they’ve seen out of Haskins in meetings and in his workouts, they should trade back for a massive haul, to whatever team wants Lawrence. Then draft Sewell, Chase or Parsons with their first pick. 

 

But would Lawrence actually be in the draft? 

 

1. Would a non-playing season still count for a college player? If not, Lawrence wouldn't be eligible.

2. He might decide to stay and play a 3rd year anyway. 

 

That being said, IF there's no NFL season, there was some weighted lottery, and we got the 1st pick and IF Lawrence is draft eligible and enters...I don't see how you can pass him up. We'd still have no better idea at how much Haskins has actually progressed and we'd be in a position to pick easily the cleanest and most hyped QB prospect since Andrew Luck. This isn't Tua we're talking about passing on at this point. Lawrence is in a completely different category.

 

We could always hedge our bets on Haskins and get a huge haul of picks by trading back. But man, we would look like complete fools if Lawrence ends up being as good as many think he can be and Haskins either ends up being a bust or a JAG. 

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5 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

But would Lawrence actually be in the draft? 

 

1. Would a non-playing season still count for a college player? If not, Lawrence wouldn't be eligible.

2. He might decide to stay and play a 3rd year anyway. 

 

That being said, IF there's no NFL season, there was some weighted lottery, and we got the 1st pick and IF Lawrence is draft eligible and enters...I don't see how you can pass him up. We'd still have no better idea at how much Haskins has actually progressed and we'd be in a position to pick easily the cleanest and most hyped QB prospect since Andrew Luck. This isn't Tua we're talking about passing on at this point. Lawrence is in a completely different category.

 

We could always hedge our bets on Haskins and get a huge haul of picks by trading back. But man, we would look like complete fools if Lawrence ends up being as good as many think he can be and Haskins either ends up being a bust or a JAG. 

 

I agree with this.  I am upbeat about Haskins' off season thus far.  But for me to skip Lawrence, Haskins would have to show he's headed for greatness -- not a good QB but headed to greatness.  I am not saying that can't happen.  But if that doesn't look like the trajectory and Lawrence looks generational then I believe you got to take Lawrence if you can.

 

To use an analogy.  Would the Falcons skip Aaron Rodgers because they have Matt Ryan.   Would you skip Mahomes because you got Stafford or name that good QB?    But again if Haskins looks like he's headed for greatness then you can skip Lawrence.  It has to play out IMO but at this moment in time I don't think you can say advance that we should pass on Lawrence if we can get him. 

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17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I agree with this.  I am upbeat about Haskins' off season thus far.  But for me to skip Lawrence, Haskins would have to show he's headed for greatness -- not a good QB but headed to greatness.  I am not saying that can't happen.  But if that doesn't look like the trajectory and Lawrence looks generational then I believe you got to take Lawrence if you can.

 

To use an analogy.  Would the Falcons skip Aaron Rodgers because they have Matt Ryan.   Would you skip Mahomes because you got Stafford or name that good QB?    But again if Haskins looks like he's headed for greatness then you can skip Lawrence.  It has to play out IMO but at this moment in time I don't think you can say advance that we should pass on Lawrence if we can get him. 

 

Yeah I definitely like what we've seen and heard about Haskins and his work/development this offseason, but if there's no season this year then we'll still be going into the next draft not truly knowing how much he's improved in his actual on-field game. In that situation I couldn't see passing on Lawrence. And that's also considering that I absolutely love Sewell and would hate having to pass on a guy who looks like a generational player and perennial All-Pro at LT. But positional value comes into play. If it's unknown Haskins + a once in a decade LT prospect or a once in a decade QB prospect + unknown at LT, I have to go with the latter. 

 

One thing I'm curious about though is whether there would even BE an NFL draft if in 2021 if there's no NFL or college season this year. They might just decide to bypass the entire thing altogether and restart it all in 2021 as if it were 2020 so the next draft would be 2022. That might not be fair to some college guys who were looking to enter the NFL after their junior years though. But it seems like it might be the most fair thing as far as the draft for NFL teams.  

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