CrypticVillain Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 26 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said: It actually hasn't been about AOC for the last page. Exactly. It's never about her though when I see her mentioned. That's why the thread caught me off-guard. I never seen a civilized discussion concerning her. 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 2 hours ago, tshile said: Well it’s “all things” so you can post AOC criticism if you’ve got it. No one managed to post how factually wrong she was about amazon.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, CrypticVillain said: Exactly. It's never about her though when I see her mentioned. That's why the thread caught me off-guard. I never seen a civilized discussion concerning her. 😂 I don't really care for her, but I get why people do. But to your point, no one really wants to be civilized when discussing her. People bashing her are just interested in drive-by bashing like what happened earlier in her. People defending her think she's the best thing ever, can't be told otherwise. And it's all hostile, all the time, just like anything else when discussing politics/social issues these days, which is not surprising but still sad. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry.Randolphe Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 1 hour ago, NoCalMike said: Constructive criticism of AOC vs. "Things I heard about AOC on Laura Ingraham show" I love whenever I hear someone make a comment about AOC, the lines come directly from a Fox talking point. I don't consider myself 'liberal', but even if I don't agree with her positions on things, she presents her arguments with logic and reason I can understand her point of view. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 27 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: No one managed to post how factually wrong she was about amazon.... Ok you can? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 1 minute ago, tshile said: Ok you can? Nah, I was gonna give her a pass on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 Just now, tshile said: Ok you can? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 56 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: No one managed to post how factually wrong she was about amazon.... And apparently no one still has. Since you seemed to think that trying to attack the thread was more important than whatever it is that you think somebody (else) should have mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 (edited) Amazon does pay its workers $15/hr. Now, yes, after years of public backlash and pressure over their low pay. Also, when they upgraded everyone to $15/hr, they stopped monthly incentive bonuses and end of year stock shares. So they still kinda screw their people over. Not to mention in many parts of the country $15/hr isn’t a living wage and is well below nationwide average for similar work. Quote Amazon has resisted unionization efforts that would give employees more say over their wages and working conditions. It's also unclear that Amazon is "a leader on pay" as the company claims. For context on wages -- non-supervisory workers in Transportation and Warehousing make $22.64 on average across the industry, which has fallen behind non-supervisory workers economy-wide, according to government data. Quote But that's not a living wage for a family of four, according to MIT, which estimates the hourly rate would have to be $16.14 per hour on average nationwide to meet the standard. Oh and contractors and part time workers aren’t entitled to that wage or any benefits either. Now, to be fair Amazon does reward workers with gift cards to, you guessed it, Amazon, when they are found to consistently defend and promote the company online. So there’s that. Only not really. Lets also not forget the stories of Amazon warehouse workers peeing in bottles because the bathrooms were too far away and they feared for their jobs if they took a bathroom break because of how long it would take them to get there So yeah when you add all that up with the owner being the richest man in the world and amazon itself paying no corporate federal taxes in 2018....AOC is pretty spot on. Not that anyone should expect those making dip**** drive by posts to actually research this stuff tho. Edited June 20, 2019 by Momma There Goes That Man 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 (edited) You asked for it.... https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2019/06/17/amazon-slams-aoc-for-saying-they-pay-starvation-wages/amp/ @Momma There Goes That Man I said was going give her a pass... but no one who works at amazon is starving. amazon would be fine if the minimum wage was 30/hr. They’ll just hire less people. A high minimum wage helps amazon. Edited June 20, 2019 by CousinsCowgirl84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 49 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: Amazon does pay its workers $15/hr. Now, yes, after years of public backlash and pressure over their low pay. So your point is that yeah, they pay their workers $15/hr, but they don't pay them $15/hr and bonuses. And that's still not enough for one person to single handedly support a family of four. And they need more bathrooms. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: Amazon does pay its workers $15/hr. Now, yes, after years of public backlash and pressure over their low pay. Im not sure if your OG post had all this in or not... but... I think its after they figured out how to automate a lot of the work that low wage workers were doing.... which is why they are now lobbying to raise the minimum wage. Quote Lets also not forget the stories of Amazon warehouse workers peeing in bottles because the bathrooms were too far away and they feared for their jobs if they took a bathroom break because of how long it would take them to get there Must REALLY love their job if they are willing to piss in a bottle instead of saying "**** it" and going to work elsewhere or WORSE CASE collecting unemployment for a few months... Quote So yeah when you add all that up with the owner being the richest man in the world and amazon itself paying no corporate federal taxes in 2018... Bezos revolutionized shopping for the entire world. He deserves to be the richest man in the world. Amazon not paying corporate taxes isn't Amazons fault. AOC's rage is misdirected. Edited June 21, 2019 by CousinsCowgirl84 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Barry.Randolphe said: I love whenever I hear someone make a comment about AOC, the lines come directly from a Fox talking point. I don't consider myself 'liberal', but even if I don't agree with her positions on things, she presents her arguments with logic and reason I can understand her point of view. But don't you know..that's her team that comes up with those thoughts. 🙄 As if every other politician doesn't have writers. Not to mention she got a solid education to boot. Edit...don't get me wrong. She's too extreme for my tastes in democrat politicians. But I find her fascinating and also love that she triggers the GOPs/FoxNews angst so much. Edited June 21, 2019 by The Evil Genius 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD0506 Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 (edited) I think we've seen this before with Pelosi, Hillary Clinton (during Bill's Presidency) with Warren, and other female politicians. They like to demonize them and turn them into cartoons. They repeat their exagerations and mischaracterizations so often it tends to sink into people's head. For example, Pelosi is hated because she is thought of as a left coast, way out of touch, loopy, extremist super-lib while the reality seems to be that she is a highly strategic, measured pragmatist. People are trying to turn AOC into a cartoon which makes her easier to ridicule or hate. I like how she engages on issues, especially the controversial ones that make people feel nervous. I think she handles herself well in a fight and some of the controversies-- Dear G-d! Was she dancing???!!! - demonstrate the absurdity of her antagonists. I don't think she is the second coming and I don't think she's always right, but I do think she's been a breath of needed, occasionally blunt air. Congress needs conversation starters. They need people willing to dare and put ideas out there. Like or hate the environmental and other policies AOC proposes, it's more interesting to have a debate on what is possible than the endless circling of wagons and obstruction we've seen in recent years. Edited June 21, 2019 by Burgold 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, Burgold said: I think we've seen this before with Pelosi, Hillary Clinton (during Bill's Presidency) with Warren, and other female politicians. They like to demonize them and turn them into cartoons. They repeat their exagerations and mischaracterizations so often it tends to sink into people's head. For example, Pelosi is hated because she is thought of as a left coast, way out of touch, loopy, extremist super-lib while the reality seems to be that she is a highly strategic, measured pragmatist. They now have a fresh face for their base to hate. Hillary is essentially politically irrelevant at the moment, and Pelosi will only be around for so much longer. No reason a freshman rep in the house should generate that level of irrational vitriol. Its so transparent, but thats where we are these days 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 1 minute ago, StillUnknown said: They now have a fresh face for their base to hate. Hillary is essentially politically irrelevant at the moment, and Pelosi will only be around for so much longer. No reason a freshman rep in the house should generate that level of irrational vitriol. Its so transparent, but thats where we are these days Yup. In addition, it probably galls them that she speaks. How dare someone female and non-white express her views. She should sit in the back and listen. When she votes she should listen to her betters and vote as they tell her too. She's trampling on seniority! Maybe she could be allowed to express her views after thirty years on some non-important issue, but sheesh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 44 minutes ago, Burgold said: I think we've seen this before with Pelosi, Hillary Clinton (during Bill's Presidency) with Warren, and other female politicians. They like to demonize them and turn them into cartoons. They repeat their exagerations and mischaracterizations so often it tends to sink into people's head. For example, Pelosi is hated because she is thought of as a left coast, way out of touch, loopy, extremist super-lib while the reality seems to be that she is a highly strategic, measured pragmatist. People are trying to turn AOC into a cartoon which makes her easier to ridicule or hate. I like how she engages on issues, especially the controversial ones that make people feel nervous. I think she handles herself well in a fight and some of the controversies-- Dear G-d! Was she dancing???!!! - demonstrate the absurdity of her antagonists. I don't think she is the second coming and I don't think she's always right, but I do think she's been a breath of needed, occasionally blunt air. Congress needs conversation starters. They need people willing to dare and put ideas out there. Like or hate the environmental and other policies AOC proposes, it's more interesting to have a debate on what is possible than the endless circling of wagons and obstruction we've seen in recent years. Pointing out, "well, OK, what he's doing is morally despicable, but at least he's bringing attention to the problem" is what Trump defenders say. (When their first three claims have been shown to be false). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Larry said: Pointing out, "well, OK, what he's doing is morally despicable, but at least he's bringing attention to the problem" is what Trump defenders say. (When their first three claims have been shown to be false). Who said what she is proposing is morally despicable? That's making a pretty big jump... at least on the basis of what I was posting. Edited June 21, 2019 by Burgold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 (edited) Just want to point out, that this is a pretty good example of what someone like me hates about the leftist wing of the democratic party. AOC is a rising star. She's charismatic and natural grabs peoples attention. She's vocal and is very aware of the temperature of the room and how to play to the audience. She was event smart enough to use her time in hearings with Cohen to not grandstand, but instead show how well she can approach the task at hand and how seriously she takes her position and the matter that was before her (unlike seemingly everyone else involved that turns these things into dog and pony shows.) The GOP is in the right to be concerned about her. Her views are very progressive. Tactically they're right to go after her now instead of letting her gain more popularity and stature in the dem party, even if the way they're doing it is low brow for what most of us would expect from the people participating in running our government. And they're going after her the same way they go after anyone else they identify this way, and it includes a long list of male politicians. This is pretty SOP for the republicans. Yet here you are, blame it all on them being sexist. I like AOC, i can't help but pay attention to her, and I think we need people like her for various reasons. But her policies are very progressive. You guys look like simpletons when you do this. There's plenty of options to grill people for actually being sexist. You don't have to make yourselves look so ridiculous to push that narrative, yet you choose to. You make it hard to want to align with, because you (and it's almost always the same group of people, the others seem to reserve such criticism for when it actually applies) have a track record of basically accusing people who disagree with you of being racist and sexist and whatever else so often it's easy to imagine that a simple disagreement over a policy in the future would have you do the same to me (and if you read through the threads over the years, some of you absolutely have.) Edited June 21, 2019 by tshile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 34 minutes ago, Burgold said: Who said what she is proposing is morally despicable? That's making a pretty big jump... at least on the basis of what I was posting. You didn't. You said that you disagree with her position, but at least she's bringing attention. Which, I was pointing out, is pretty close to the expression used by Trump supporters. (Just like pre-trial detention in outdoor facilities for racist motivations is kinda sorta like concentration camps.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 I think you're naive to think sexism and racism don't play a role in the tearing down of AOC in Trump's America, Tshile. I also think you are right about other reasons that the "opposition" has reason to fear and go after her, but it's deeper than her ascending star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Larry said: You didn't. You said that you disagree with her position, but at least she's bringing attention. Which, I was pointing out, is pretty close to the expression used by Trump supporters. (Just like pre-trial detention in outdoor facilities for racist motivations is kinda sorta like concentration camps.) I might have been clumsy. I was trying to say that I don't agree with all her positions or rather... there may be fine points within her positions that I find fault with, but that's pretty normal with even the best proposals or arguments. I can't remember the last "big" political idea that I found myself agreeing with in totality without any aspect or outcome worthy of a bit of fretting. I think there is value in your position/warning. I do think it is good to bring ideas forward for debate and consideration... even ones that I disagree with. We should be able to objectively consider ideas despite their source. On the other hand, there are ideas that are so stupid or so evil as to be nonstarters. I don't think AOC has even approached that line with anything she has put out there. Trump, on the other hand, has not only crossed that line, but lapped it many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 I will say I didn't take the idea of them paying starvation wages literally. I think people are allowed a bit of hyperbole when speaking. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 --On the whole AOC-Amazon thing. AOC was asking questions, and Amazon didn't like it so they packed their bags and left. She didn't pass any legislation, she didn't force Amazon to do anything, she was simply having some concerns and wanted Bezos to answer some questions. A lot of people think Amazon was playing games the entire time anyway and didn't intend to move there. What would be great for Amazon to do is setup a headquarters in the south or middle of nowhere. Those are the regions of the county that desperately need to be connected to the modern world. They need the jobs, the wages, the economic growth. --On the AOC-Concentration Camps thing. I will concede the use of the term "concentration camp" might have been sloppy, because despite what the dictionary definition of the term says, she should have known it would conjure up a specific memory of something else. With that said, her using the term itself should have garnered maybe 10% of the conversation, if we had more honest conservative media. Instead that was pretty much all that was discussed instead of the actual meat of her statement on why these asylum camps are pretty despicable. --On AOC being attacked due to sexism/racism. So this one is tricky. I do think a lot of the right just simply hates her progressive policies, but I also think she gets a lot of extra flack because she is a Latino woman. She is the poster child for "See look, brown women are now trying to run things, we can't have that" (along with Ilhan Omar and a few others) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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