Larry Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 6 minutes ago, NoCalMike said: What would be great for Amazon to do is setup a headquarters in the south or middle of nowhere. Those are the regions of the county that desperately need to be connected to the modern world. They need the jobs, the wages, the economic growth. Have to confess, when I read about a Big Business trying to get millions in tax subsidies, I tend to assume that the "economic growth" is simply vaporware being thrown around for the real story which is "some other place is offering me 8 million dollars, just for being a big company. Will you give me more?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 19 minutes ago, NoCalMike said: --On the AOC-Concentration Camps thing. I will concede the use of the term "concentration camp" might have been sloppy, because despite what the dictionary definition of the term says, she should have known it would conjure up a specific memory of something else. With that said, her using the term itself should have garnered maybe 10% of the conversation, if we had more honest conservative media. Instead that was pretty much all that was discussed instead of the actual meat of her statement on why these asylum camps are pretty despicable. Why was it sloppy when that is what is happening at the Southern Border? The point was to bring up that memory of WWII and what the concentration camps in the US and Germany and hope it appeals to peoples morals. It backfired because the right and corporate media have shown they have no morals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 She’s hot so her policies are all A-OK with me. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, Springfield said: She’s hot so her policies are all A-OK with me. Same reason you are into Biden? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, Llevron said: Same reason you are into Biden? If you got me a porn with Biden and AOC together... I’d be set for weeks. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 9 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: Why was it sloppy when that is what is happening at the Southern Border? The point was to bring up that memory of WWII and what the concentration camps in the US and Germany and hope it appeals to peoples morals. It backfired because the right and corporate media have shown they have no morals. I am not disagreeing with that. That wasn't my point really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 1 minute ago, NoCalMike said: I am not disagreeing with that. That wasn't my point really. You said it was sloppy because of the image it evokes in people. I get that the word should be a small part of the convo around whats happening at the Southern Border, but I think her using Concentration Camp was deliberate for bringing up the WWII world. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: You said it was sloppy because of the image it evokes in people. I get that the word should be a small part of the convo around whats happening at the Southern Border, but I think her using Concentration Camp was deliberate for bringing up the WWII world. I dont like the throwing around of the term "concentration camps". What is the difference in the term "internment camps", which I've heard referenced a lot in what we did to the Japanese during world war 2? Anytime I hear concentration camp, I think of fact Germany was exterminating people in mass as part of a mass cleansing, we are either holding people or kicking them back out the country in both of our cases of holding people like this. The correlation with what the Nazis did feels like a distraction and leads to people saying what we are doing on southern border now isnt that bad versus focusing on how bad what were doing actually is, it's certainly not good. If were going to have this conversation in this country, it'd would probably do better to compare the historical context to what we did to the Japanese instead subtle hints to what the Nazis did to the Jews, it's not the same. I do believe AOC did that deliberately, and I'm not happy about it, it's not helping. Edited June 21, 2019 by Renegade7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 14 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: I dont like the throwing around of the term "concentration camps". What is the difference in the term "internment camps", which I've heard referenced a lot in what we did to the Japanese during world war 2? Anytime I hear concentration camp, I think of fact Germany was exterminating people in mass as part of a mass cleansing, we are either holding people or kicking them back out the country in both of our cases of holding people like this. The correlation with what the Nazis did feels like a distraction and leads to people saying what we are doing on southern border now isnt that bad versus focusing on how bad what were doing actually is, it's certainly not good. If were going to have this conversation in this country, it'd would probably do better to compare the historical context to what we did to the Japanese instead subtle hints to what the Nazis did to the Jews, it's not the same. I do believe AOC did that deliberately, and I'm not happy about it, it's not helping. That's the first problem. Auschwitz was an extermination camp, but Germany had a bunch of concentration camps around the country as well. Internment Camp and Concentration Camp are used interchangeably. There isn't a difference. That is what AOC meant. And a bunch of scholars on that time period have been calling what the US is doing at the Southern border concentration camps. They've been using that term for months. AOC is just the first high profile person to use it. She did it on purpose to have a concentration and because of it is right. Americans like to sanitize the past and we need to stop that. We had concentration camps in this country before and we are doing it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 (edited) As far as concentration camps, I don’t think that death has to be synonymous with it. I read a brief article which claimed that AOC is exactly correct in her use of the term. They’re just holding the people, with no real goal for them. Naturally, this goes back to leadership up top. As for AOC herself, I think she comes off as incredibly intelligent and well versed on many of the topic she comments about. It seems like she truly does her homework which is way more than can be said about a lot of congressmen. I respect that even if I don’t agree with her 100%. I do think she’s right to call the boarder mess concentration camps though, even if there aren’t incinerators on standby. Edited June 21, 2019 by Springfield 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 20 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: That's the first problem. Auschwitz was an extermination camp, but Germany had a bunch of concentration camps around the country as well. Internment Camp and Concentration Camp are used interchangeably. There isn't a difference. That is what AOC meant. And a bunch of scholars on that time period have been calling what the US is doing at the Southern border concentration camps. They've been using that term for months. AOC is just the first high profile person to use it. She did it on purpose to have a concentration and because of it is right. Americans like to sanitize the past and we need to stop that. We had concentration camps in this country before and we are doing it again. Hmm... that's tough. I agree with some of what your saying, the Japanense internment was never brought up when I was in school, I doubt it is today. Maybe this isnt a case of people being stupid but jus not being educated on the differences and similarities of these three different situations. I get what you saying, but without making clear the distinction between extermination camps and concentration camps a lot of people in this country are treating it like crying wolf. I dont think that conversation is possible with people trying to shock us into action via terminology, the reality on the ground should a big enough selling point to how bad this is on its own. Jus talking outloud, i know a couple conservatives that feel this way, and it's not a stupid thing, i didnt know scholars were calling these concentration camps on the southern border, I thought that was a distinction in Germanys attempt to kill people while the internment camps we had was to hold people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 I figure if Jewish groups, survivors, and rabbis are okay with AOC using the term “Concentration Camps” then it fits. I’ve discussed them as interment camps almost from the start, but I have no qualms with drawing the parallels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 11 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: I get what you saying, but without making clear the distinction between extermination camps and concentration camps a lot of people in this country are treating it like crying wolf. You don't need to make a distinction when they are two separate terms. It's like saying the number one is after number two. Conservatives who are upset at the use of the word don't live in reality or are deliberately obfuscating from what is happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 Just for the folks trying to argue that "concentration camps" can be stretched far enough to fit, there's some other pesky details I'd like to point out. The folks inside there are not US citizens who we rounded up because of their ethnicity, to be held there for life, either. They're people who entered the country illegally (maybe put an asterisk on that, in the case of asylum seekers), and who are awaiting their day in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: You don't need to make a distinction when they are two separate terms. It's like saying the number one is after number two. Conservatives who are upset at the use of the word don't live in reality or are deliberately obfuscating from what is happening. You probably do with people's limited understanding of history in this country, maybe not you or me. Most people who have heard about concentration camps learned about it through what the Nazis were doing, that's their primary working example they reference this conversation to. There are some important distinctions here and Larry has a point that we arent gathering people already in the country, these are people we are catching trying to cross the southern border to get in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 10 minutes ago, Larry said: Just for the folks trying to argue that "concentration camps" can be stretched far enough to fit, there's some other pesky details I'd like to point out. The folks inside there are not US citizens who we rounded up because of their ethnicity, to be held there for life, either. There is no definition of a concentration camp where you have to round people up. Even then, these people are being denied the right to apply for asylum here in the US. Why even point this out? 4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: You probably do with people's limited understanding of history in this country, maybe not you or me. Most people who have heard about concentration camps learned about it through what the Nazis were doing, that's their primary working example they reference this conversation to. There are some important distinctions here and Larry has a point that we arent gathering people already in the country, these are people we are catching trying to cross the southern border to get in. She quoted an article and called it a concentration camp. The article actually pointed it out. That is not on her, but people not really being on it. There are folks in this thread who are attempting to conflate them. Larry's distinction is hogwash. I'm sorry, it just is. This is about humanity. You do not need to round people up to have a concentration camp like he suggested. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 To me it is important to remember that the average US citizen is ****ing stupid. They don't know the difference between different types of camps. All they "know" is concentration camps are where Nazis killed Jews. Like many other things, definitions change over time. And you need to be mindful of what the majority considers a definition to be whether that is the literal definition or not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Burgold said: I think you're naive to think sexism and racism don't play a role in the tearing down of AOC in Trump's America, I’m not saying they don’t play a role. Im saying you, and others, are over-stating that role. And I’m saying that you, and others, do such a thing quite often. And for some, it’s pretty much the extent of their analysis for anything. Its the equivalent of hard right people writing off the concerns about poverty (and the ideas about it that come from the left) as “just wanting to give people stuff” or whatever it is they say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 (edited) I think one of the things that has always given me peace of mind about the Redskins' name controversy is how every poll of Native Americans found that they were hugely in support of the name. That coupled with the fact that Oklahoma meant "Land of the Red Skinned People" and that reservations elected to call their own teams Redskins made my squishy liberal heart okay with the term. After all, I don't know what offends them and they are the best judge of that. On the flip side, if Jews, Holocaust survivors, and rabbis all look at these interment camps and think, "This is what Nazis did!" and support calling them "Concentration Camps" then I think they are the best arbiters as to the justice and fit of the term. Time and time again, you will see (if you look) survivors, children of survivors, grandchildren of survivors, Jewish historians, scholars, and the groups dedicated towards defending Jews against antisemitism look at this and say, "A rose by any other name." They know. We know. We can try to pretty it up, but we should be not only deeply ashamed but horrified. To be honest, having a semantic battle while ignoring the issue itself depresses me. The name fits. Those who know what it means best have said so. Edited June 21, 2019 by Burgold 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 The last page of this thread was sort of the point I was making. Whether or not AOC using the term "Concentration Camp" was right or accurate or off base, has become THE STORY. That is why sometimes the word you use are important even if you aren't necessarily wrong about it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said: Even then, these people are being denied the right to apply for asylum here in the US. I haven't heard that. You got support for that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 The whole uproar over the usage of concentration camps is silly. Part of me suspects it's the GOPs angle to make us not talk about the US rounding up people seeking asylum, separating the kids from their families, and basically forcing those under 16yo kids to watch over and take care of sick infants while being starved and not given a healthy and clean place to live. So..nicely..**** off with this argument. Who cares what's it's called. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 46 minutes ago, Larry said: I haven't heard that. You got support for that? He wants people to seek asylum in Mexico. https://time.com/5604991/donald-trump-migrants-asylum/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/as-trump-administration-pushes-to-return-more-migrants-to-mexico-legal-battle-over-policy-intensifies/2019/06/20/a486829a-92b7-11e9-b570-6416efdc0803_story.html?utm_term=.aa95a3ef4e67 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 1 minute ago, BenningRoadSkin said: He wants people to seek asylum in Mexico. https://time.com/5604991/donald-trump-migrants-asylum/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/as-trump-administration-pushes-to-return-more-migrants-to-mexico-legal-battle-over-policy-intensifies/2019/06/20/a486829a-92b7-11e9-b570-6416efdc0803_story.html?utm_term=.aa95a3ef4e67 you mean he wants to follow asylum laws?....egad ,what a beast 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 Ah. So, they're being allowed to apply for assylum, just not to sit in detention in the US while they do so. Yeah, I've got a problem with that. (I've seen too many cases of "well, they're being locked up under orders of the US government, but we claim that the lockup is outside the US, therefore we don;t have to follow the rules that we're required to follow for people who are locked up by the US government") But what I thought you were saying was that they were being denied the ability to apply for asylum at all. 2 minutes ago, twa said: you mean he wants to follow asylum laws? When did Congress change the law on how to apply for asylum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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