Let's stop pretending that the NFL isn't fixed (Josh Norman holding call)

[carex]

3 minutes ago, Taylor 36 said:

The ball never hit the ground.  It wasn't caught by the receiver, and therefore not a fumble, but it didn't hit the ground before be possessed by the defender.  The correct call would have been an interception.

 

basically the WR let the defender pick up a still live pass from his chest.

[thebluefood]

Read OP in his voice. Made this thread infinitely more entertaining. 

[sportjunkie07]

2 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

Kind of funny the call came right after the cow pukes got the game winning field goal..jus saying..

The correct call would have been an incomplete pass... And as I said while we went to commercial break.. The sun shines on a dog's ass every now and then..

That was an INT. 

[bakedtater1]

1 minute ago, sportjunkie07 said:

That was an INT. 

No it wasn't...the ball hit the ground as the defender was trying to contain it..

Do we have video or clip of that turn over we got lucky on?

[RemoveSnyder]

This conversation is too nuanced for ES. It also requires far too much effort just to explain the prologue before getting shouted down. Likewise any thesis is basically a three part essay before one could even get to the meat and potatoes. I've thought about writing an essay about it, but 2 hours into dictating dialogue I found myself swimming in material. 

 

Also as someone mentioned, there is an existing thread.

 

But people should familiarize themselves with Dan Moldea, for starters. Then, after reading his book on the NFL from yesteryear, should the conversation start. 

 

 

 

As for the here and now:

That video above is ancient history there of a bygone past where influence was more direct and tangible. But it was also 20th century guided. The influence on the game today, I'd argue has come from within the NFL itself, at the policy level. 

 

Spoiler

 

Manipulate from within is so much easier that direct contact, or as many anti conspiracy arguers want to set up a red herring or strawman argument that the only argument conspiracy theorists can come up with is the direct and intentional payoff kind. A canard of an argument. Make it seem like the only conspiracy theories that are ever presented have to be Gino the Big Moose contacting a referee on a direct line, on a specific play, and directing the outcomes of the game on a play by play basis. Which doesn't exists, I presume, because it would be the most difficult and ultimately unreliable plan of action. 

 

It's a fool's errand to try and prove anything on the micro level. But on the macro level, on the big picture, the influence is clear. 

 

As for the here and now, there are some basic truisms about the NFL business model that exist independent from games themselves. It's stuff that every fan already knows but casually take for granted and rarely ever think beyond. 

 

There is a reason why the league is called a "week to week" league. A week to week league is good for bet takers. Coin flip victories are good for the gambling infrastructure. One, because it means the public will not have any definitive (or reliable) metric for beating vegas at a higher percentage than vegas beats the gambling public. 

 

That's all that matters to the gambling infrastructure, make more money than money going out. 

 

There is a reason for coin flip wins by the vast majority of teams in the league from week to week. It is a by-product of design. 

 

It's why so many teams, like washington, oscillate from week to week when they haven't achieved the highest plateau of the league-wide template for how team's win -- the almighty QB. 

 

There is a reason why the majority of games are one score games.

Ask yourself this: which is an easier landscape to deal with, if you were in the business of points shaving, or otherwise in the business of point spread making, an league where the game, the majority of the games during the year are one score games late into the 4th quarter, or a league with wildly erratic score differentials? 

 

The answer would be the league where the majority of games are one score games. They would be easier to manipulate because the environment was already primed for such a thing to happen. It means that a league of one score games then only comes down to a handful of plays either way to influence any desired outcome. Chicken -- egg. 

 

There is a reason why any given year there is virtually no difference between 24 / 26 / 28 teams across the league. There's a reason why so many teams hover around .500 or are within one to two deviations of .500 at the middle point of the season. 

 

We're all familiar with the term parity. To explain it in general makes sense, to explain it in detail, the picture becomes opaque. 

 

There is a reason why the league has exalted the QB and over protected the QB. It's why, since Montana's drive against the Bengals in the superbowl, the template for the NFL and likewise for the networks broadcasting the game has been: make the NFL about whichever QB has the ball last, for a last drive 1 minute offense, to see who wins.

 

Network people are not football guys, they are entertainment guys. The QB is set on a gilded throne, in heaven.

 

There's a reason why the game itself stylistically has morphed into Big XII football. It's entertainment.

Do you think it's John Madden, who is sitting in a league office, who is the one pushing the evolution of the game into this pass centric, stylistic and narrowed display?

 

The guy who would say things during broadcasts like: "You know football is really only football when you have big fat guys hitting each other and there's blood on the pants, and there's mud. Now, you might just get one of those things any given week, but when you get all three, you know you've got a football game." 

 

You think it's him shaping policy of an over-officious league? 

 

Or do you think perhaps the underwriters, the money providers from the broadcast networks, who supply the operational funds to the NFL, who have broadcasted simultaneously the collegiate game during the same time period concurrent to the NFL, who have overseen the "trickle upwards" of scheme, notably the shotgun spread and read option based game, which historically was an invention to help teams with lesser calibre athletes compete against more stacked teams, if only they could get an athletic enough QB and could gimmick their way to offensive output, that those people would be the ones to push for stylistic alterations?

 

Simply said in a different way, the people whose business model (the broadcast companies) it is to sell the game from a visual standpoint to the consumer public, they want to have the most exciting, the most "bang, pop, sizzle" type game imaginable. It's no wonder that the game has morphed into the template used for decades at the college level. 

 

The broadcast companies are in the business of entertainment. And it's clear the mandate for the NFL has been make the game about the offense. And when the coaches and teams can't adapt to that, then the league itself has needs to legislate the game into the current mold. 

 

It's a product of design. The number of possibilities, the number of wild card deviations are being legislated out of the game. 

 

 

There is a reason why gambling has been legalized. There is a reason why Vegas continues to make business as bet takers, it's because they make money, year after year. If vegas lost money, they wouldn't be in the business of taking and making bets. 

 

That's another truism. Would anyone like to challenge the notion that the gambling infrastructure makes money? 

 

There is a reason why the gambling infrastructure is estimated to fund the NFL with 2.3 billion dollars on an annual basis, it's becuase the gross income of their revenue far exceeds 2.3 billion on an annual basis. The only thing which that money provides is a seat at the table for the gamblng infrastucture to sit next to the league and the other underwriters of the NFL, the broadcast companies, who all fund the product. And those who fund the sport are also the ones who shape the policy and style of the game. 

 

The NFL revenue shares with all 32 teams the billions of dollars from the broadcast companies and the gambling infrastructure each year. That aspect is a socialist business model within a massive capitalist machine. The NFL maintains that all 32 teams stay at a certain threshold, that no one team can just disappear. 

 

That aspect of the business model could have pages upon pages dedicated to just that concept. But from a macro perspective, all that it means is that the NFL, each team, is beholden to the underwriters of the sport. 

 

That money is the operational lifeblood of the NFL. That is how the machine is lubricated. Without it, without that massive money influx, the NFL would resemble something of the pre-merger league, more like barnstormer minor league, from the era that professional football wasn't thought of as highly by the mass public, not nearly as good as your collegiate Havard versus Yale game of those early 20th century years. 

 

Without massive broadcast / gambling money, teams that sucked and didn't win, would be totally dependent upon a dwindling fan base who could not be urged to pay the huge bill. Teams would disappear. But since the money from the underwriters fund the franchise, they work hand in glove together. 

 

That's another truism. That of money which funds something also entitles those who pay to have a say in what happens with the final product. 

 

 

All of that money, all that it does is provide the opportunity for the broadcast companies and the gambling infra to shape and mold the game, by way of influence on the league, who is beholden to their underwriters. 

 

People also often confuse betting lines with that of appraisals by vegas on certain teams, but it's not. Betting lines are simply ways in which to influcence how people bet on large scales, in specific  circumstances. But that's a different tangent. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8KQAeEwfVM&t=4s

 

 

The rules changes, which is something every watcher of the NFL understands is actual, real, proven, and has been documented, has been the vehicle to shape and manipulate the game itself. Altered from within. The rules changes encompass the way in which the game is officiated. 

 

It's also something that nearly everyone has become numb to, accustomed to. Pass interference is blase now. We've all been dosed to the highest possible MGs. But there was a time when Ronnie Lott and Jack Tatum and others won championships that today have been legislated out of the game. 

 

You know what else is being legislated out of the game, in 2018? - Sacking the QB. But of course, as with anything relating to officiating, all penalties are subjective. All that matters is that the league sets precedent, introduces the public to how they plan to alter the game. 2018 is the testing grounds for what will appear this post season, roughing the passer calls that will extend the offense's scoring opportunities. 

 

Roughing calls now seem to be the next major penalty to buttress the already monolithic pass interference. 

 

So when everyone is America and beyond saw Clay Matthews get called for roughing the passer calls, on tackles that everyone who has ever played the game and watched the game of football for the last 30, 40 years, a play, a tackle that everyone once knew deep in their fiber of existence was a legitimate and "OK" tackle, a play that everyone saw in real time and collective said: "yeah, that's legal," however the league said: "No, your eyes are wrong, that's not legal anymore." 

 

So they retain the power to alter the game as they see fit. And the fans can only conform to the new standard or abort the game itself.

 

That happened in the first few weeks of the 2018 season, and it happened to a ton of other players too, for the first 3 to 4 weeks before a tapering off in the last few weeks. But here's a prediction, I guarantee that the roughing the passer NWO will show itself again this season during the playoffs or the run up, to irrevocably alter the most important of games. 

 

But since it happens to everyone it must be ok, right?

 

And when the NFL has announced at times, in the past, that they, through proxy of the referees, are going to start penalizing plays more stringently than in previous times, many people seem to assume that because of an announcement, a proclamation, that it somehow means there was no actual "conspiracy." But in fact, declaring that the league will change its rules to penalize defenses at disproportionate rates to the offense is actual evidence of a planned and orchestrated effort to change the game itself. 

 

Like I said, it's a fool's errand to try and prove favoritism for one team over another on the micro level. You eventually get to the place in an argument where everyone says: "hey, it happens to every team," even Preston Smith and washington. 

 

The point of the rule changes is not to be seen at the micro level but the macro. We all have seen that the game itself has tilted the table in favor of the offense. That's a truism

 

It just means that the total possible number of outcomes for how a team wins a championship are but limited to a finite few, with the almighty QB template being the league wide predominate one. Not that exceptions cannot exist, just the massive limitation.

 

And I can only assume because the gambling infrastructure has a great analytics understanding on how to make lots of money from this template. So the individual teams and players who benefit can shift from year to year, but the model stays the same. 

 

It's so that the total possible number of deterrents against the "almighty QB template" are limited to but a few extrapolations. Basically, the NFL is using 2018 and roughing the passer to minimize the occurrences of what we saw from Michael Strahan and the Giants who used their passrush and sacking to win two superbowls against Tom Brady and the Patriots. 

 

And the emergence of the new roughing call, I assume, will be used only if need be. With no set "tells," or papertrail of clear favoritism. 

 

 

The rules changes has been the manipulation from within.

I think it just means that, for example, the Gibbs I era of a balanced rushing attack, any team trying to use that template in today's era just has a set percentage, disproportionately less to the shotgun passing almighty QB template. Same to be said for a defense that would rely on knocking the opponents starting QB out of the game. That wild card deviation is all but legislated out of today's game. 

 

Strange to write that on this of all days, after Smith's injury. But I believe it to be true on the macro. 

 

 

For the previous 15 or years the vehicle for artificially inflating offensive production was the defensive pass interference penalty. Extend drives, leads to more scoring opportunities, leads to more scoring, leads to whoever has the ball last. 

 

But in 2018 a new variant emerged, that of roughing the passer. 

 

Some people assume that since bad calls go against every team that therefore means no one gets an advantage, that every team's defense is adversely penalized and therefore no proof of conspiracy. But the only things that matters is that the game is managed and manipulated and that the money continues to flow.

 

 

We're all addicted to the game of football. They know that.  

It's just that the number of possible outcomes are limited to a finite few options.

 

^(This whole thing needs an edit)

 

 

There's more, much more. 

 

[joeken24]

Yea. That call was ridiculous. The Redskins have always been on the bad side of calls. The sad thing about it is, you can't do **** about it. Every professional league is ****ed up that way. You just have to step on throats and beat the **** out of teams. I ****ing hate authority. I always have. They're completely compromised on every level. But I degress.......

They surely **** up this game for us.

 

Meanwhile, #8 is ****in **** up. Had to add a silver lining bro.

[Conn]

Worst thread I've seen on here in years. And I click on every Burgold thread! Incredible accomplishment. 

[Rogue Jedi]

Even if the penalty wasn’t called, we’d still have to drive the field for a fg or td if he makes the kick

 

[skins island connection]

1 hour ago, joeken24 said:

Yea. That call was ridiculous. The Redskins have always been on the bad side of calls. The sad thing about it is, you can't do **** about it. Every professional league is ****ed up that way. You just have to step on throats and beat the **** out of teams. I ****ing hate authority. I always have. They're completely compromised on every level. But I degress.......

They surely **** up this game for us.

 

Meanwhile, #8 is ****in **** up. Had to add a silver lining bro.

 

 Well, they could 'accidentally' roll up on the a-hole ref calling the phantom fouls, but that's just me talkin'.

 

Personally, I'd like to see Norman keep his pie hole shut and play the game. Fouls or not, his mouth is writing checks his ass can't cash. There's no need to grab and hang onto a WR that you're right in stride with, or holding them on the LOS, or jamming his hand into the facemask. Those are intimidation moves, and its not working. If he's gonna jamb a WR at the line, knock him on his ass, there's no flag for that.

[Tarpon75]

8 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I think it’s safer to say there is just some really bad officiating.  The crew today was blooper feel terrible.  I’m sure the Texans also felt something was up calling that Hopkins play a catch and fumble on the field.  I guarantee somebody gets fired/demoted for their performance today.

Someone should get fined or demoted but nothing ever happens. That’s the problem.  Once in a while you might get a letter from the NFL saying that they made a mistake, that even is very rare.I am really getting tired of the league,they go from allowing no celebration or emotion to the out of control 11 men in the Endzone celebrations after  interceptions or touchdowns.

3 hours ago, Rogue Jedi said:

Even if the penalty wasn’t called, we’d still have to drive the field for a fg or td if he makes the kick

 

 You do realize that there would have been a lot more time left on the clock don’t you? I Don’t remember the exact scenario but there may even have had a timeout left. That call made a huge difference, six or seven more yards and that field goal attempt would’ve been good.

[bedlamVR]

6 hours ago, Nerm said:

 

Well, in the last Cowboys -Skins game a penalty was called on the Cowboys long snapper who had done the same thing for 14 years and was never considered a penalty before... This happened on the last play of the game...Just saying.

I am sorry but that is BS . I know that is what the long snapper said but you could see him set and move the ball on TV ... That level of movement should be considered a false start ....it interestingly didnt happen on the next snap - just saying ....

 

That said while I don't think the NFL is fixed the refs are horribly inconsistent and they should be encouraged to pick up the flags .... I do think sometimes they change the call they were going to make based on the outcome of the play ... Especially in defensive and offensive holding/pass interference...and I am talking generally not just in this game

 

[Nerm]

1 hour ago, bedlamVR said:

 ....it interestingly didnt happen on the next snap - just saying ....

 

 

Or on any snap he had in his previous 220 games... Where he did the exact same thing... Just saying...

[Burgold]

Teams get reffed. The 'skins get reffed far too often.

[moondog]

11 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I think it’s safer to say there is just some really bad officiating.  The crew today was blooper feel terrible.  I’m sure the Texans also felt something was up calling that Hopkins play a catch and fumble on the field.  I guarantee somebody gets fired/demoted for their performance today.

It’s not fixed and it was dumb they called it a fumble but it absolutely was a interception. Ball never hit the ground and clearly foster had it. I’m guessing they just didn’t overturn it because it didn’t matter but it was still really dumb for them not to call it a pick. 

 

That at being said, the Norman penalty was absolutely egregious. I can’t believe more people aren’t upset about them not calling pass interference on our last pass downfield to Doctson. Defender went up over his back and knocked him to the ground before the ball got there. It was blatant and Doctson still almost made the catch. But that puts us in easy field goal range with little time left. The combination of that and the Norman call just left my jaw wide open. And let’s not forget about the awful roughing the passer penalty on Preston smith earlier. It had not overall impact but gave them their second first down by penalty in the red zone on that drive. Ridiculous. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

9 hours ago, Taylor 36 said:

The ball never hit the ground.  It wasn't caught by the receiver, and therefore not a fumble, but it didn't hit the ground before be possessed by the defender.  The correct call would have been an interception.

 

Thanks for this because that's kind of how I saw it too.  As for this thread I think the OP regrets the whole "NFL is fixed" theme, as pointed out we had plenty of bad calls come our way as well.  

[75004]

It is upsetting to watch these referees make dumb calls while not calling others. How many times was Doctson and the other receivers interfere with on the left side of the field. Congrats to the referees on a great win. 

[Audible_Red40]

The league has been fixed since 1991 in my opinion!!!

 

[normal_gymnasium]

After reading the post by Monk4thaHALL, and watching the video he embedded in the post, it seems more obvious than ever that there is influence by outside parties on the outcomes of games. 

 

When you stop and think about it, how could there not be?

 

Whenever money is involved, people will ALWAYS resort to nefarious means to funnel the money in their direction. When the money is really big, the sharks get into a downright feeding frenzy.

 

And the NFL is a 10 billion-dollar-a-year business. That doesn't include gambling, which is many billions more.

 

Think about it. With literally tens of billions of dollars at stake, what are the chances that powerful, ambitious, competitive men are just sitting around going "Golly gee, I darn sure hope things go the way we want them to go"? 

 

In other words, which scenario seems more likely:

 

a) Such men are sitting around doing nothing to influence games and leaving things to chance, or; 

b) That they have thought things through and come up with various solutions to influence games in their favor, while maintaining a veil of plausible deniability that the public can swallow?

 

If you agree that scenario b is at least somewhat plausible, then why does it seem like some wild, laughable conspiracy theory to assume that the powers that be in the NFL and gambling circles have come up with some kind of systematic methodology to influence games?

[Smurf3]

All I know is, go to a high school game and there are very few penalties. Go to a college game there are a few more. Go to a NFL game, its penalties squared. No question there is probably a boderline hold on every play in the NFL and players like Norman have the reputation of thinking they know how to grab without getting caught. They are probably watched on every play and some officials have a when in doubt call it mind set. Simple as that.

[NikeRedskin7]

22 hours ago, veteranskinsfan said:

It is still a dumb play by Norman to put himself in that position when we needed the ball back at the end of the game- regardless if the ref was wrong or right.

 

Exactly!!!!  I tell you, this NFL is fixed, biased against ONLY us, etc etc etc, is so hilarious and not true.  If the league is fixed, why would the league call a bogus call on that Cowboys long snapper that HELPED us, then comeback and make a bogus call AGAINST us the hurt us?  That don't make any sense.

 

 I'm sure nobody was whining when Hopkins and the Texans got horribly robbed when the refs gave US a bull crap fumble and that obviously wasn't even a completed catch

 

 Josh Norman is a seasoned veteran.  Why the hell would he grab on the guy and tug his jersey way down field and he knows that is illegal?  We as fans have to stop making excuses for our guys when they do stupid **** on the field.  There is no BS fixes or biases or any of that crap.  Just a dumb decision by a player who should know better than to do the things that would put a referee in question mode.

22 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

It’s not fixed, it was a bad call.

 

The Texans got jobbed a couple times today also.

 

 

 

Shhhhh.  Don't tell the conspiracy theorist that.  It will kill the plot that the league is against us everytime we lose, we get penalized, or when the other team scores.

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

Im more inclined to believe that was a bad call verse anything conspiracy theory related but with that said if you think No NFL games have ever been fixed by the Mob or the NFL i have nice bridge I'd love to sell you.

 

 Whenever and wherever you have money involved and alot of it , there will be corruption.....With The NFL being  as Image obsessed as it is would it really surprise anyone if they were leaning on refs to maybe sway a game in one teams favor here and there..... Is it that crazy to believe ? I don't think it happens often but if I had to bet on it I'd bet it has.

 

[NikeRedskin7]

13 hours ago, bedlamVR said:

I am sorry but that is BS . I know that is what the long snapper said but you could see him set and move the ball on TV ... That level of movement should be considered a false start ....it interestingly didnt happen on the next snap - just saying ...

 

 

The longsnapper been doing that his whole career for years....  And yes, he actually did the same thing the very next play but the refs chose not to flag them again.  They got robbed big time but it benefitted us.

[skinsfan35yrs.]

23 hours ago, normal_gymnasium said:

A few years ago, I noticed a pattern. Illegal contact or defensive holding was very frequently called in very specific situations. Usually, it happened on third downs, when a team needed to be bailed out one way or the other. And more often than not, it happened late in games to give a team new life, usually to extend potential game winning drives.

 

I would really like to see statistics on defensive back penalties as regards to when they occur, to confirm what my eyes and gut feelings already tell me.

 

It's not just the Redskins either, in case this post is coming across like sour grapes from an overly-emotional fan after a loss. It has happened to plenty of teams. I watch a lot of football and I've noticed this happening on a good 20-25 occasions by my best estimation.

 

On nearly every occasion, when the replay is shown, the "penalty" is either one of two things:

 

• It's something that happens on nearly every single play but mysteriously only gets called in the most crucial, game-influencing situations, or;
• As with the one called on Norman when the Redskins stopped the Texans on 3rd down, there simply is no penalty. There's nothing that occurs at all that even comes close to resembling a penalty. The announcers see the replay and say "Gee Jim, I don't know about that one" or something to that effect.

 

Now, I can only theorize – if this theory has any merit at all – why this happens, or how the “fix” is decided upon, or how it’s implemented. As I try to come up with such an explanation, I admit that I sound like some idiot wearing a tinfoil hat who that believes the earth is flat or that crisis actors exist.

My best explanation is that the league wants close, exciting games for ratings purposes, and the refs who “get it” know to call (and when to call) phantom illegal contact/defensive holding penalties to extend games.

 

Perhaps in other cases, there are “preferred” teams, i.e. teams that are deemed to have a bigger excitement factor, specifically a more marketable quarterback, which the league can exploit to hype late-season games with playoff implications (to say nothing of the playoffs themselves).

 

The refs who “get it” get the coveted playoff and Super Bowl assignments.

 

This has been an inkling I’ve had for some time now. I know I’m not the only one. The phantom call on Norman has changed this from a strong inkling to a virtually certain belief.

 

Anyone else think there is something to this? Or should I loosen the tinfoil hat a bit?

Look, simple fact is Norman had ahold of the WR shirt tail. (and he had a hold of the WR hand before he grabbed the shirt) What sucks is the ball and play was on the opposite side of the field. So that begs 2 questions, why did the ref think this needed to be called and wtf is Norman even touching this guy for

[TD_washingtonredskins]

23 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

It’s not fixed, it was a bad call.

 

The Texans got jobbed a couple times today also.

 

 

 

Thank you!

 

I think the refs were bad, but I am 100% sure that they don't care who wins. 

 

I used this example in another thread, but if the refs wanted to ensure the Texans would win, they wouldn't have called that sketchy block in the back that put Houston in 3rd-and-20 and took them out of FG range (temporarily). If they don't score there, we'd be getting the ball back after 2 straight scoring drives (I think) and the refs would have every reason to believe that we'd keep it rolling. So, if there's an example that proves the NFL doesn't give a **** who wins and isn't fixing games (at least AGAINST us), it's that play. 

[NoCalMike]

I'd say more than even bad calls, the issue is more the inconsistency.  The fact that officiating crews don't even seem to agree with each other on how penalties are.  As a crew they should make a decision before the game how they want to call the game.   If it is a heated rivalry, maybe they decide it is best to call a tighter ship to avoid emotions between teams.  If it is two teams with a rep for playing physical, maybe keep the flags closer to the vest, but what you have to do is call the game consistently.    

In the game yesterday, there was just a flat out inconsistent basis for illegal contact/PI.   You had Harris earlier in the game having his arm & hand pulled down, but no call.  Ok fine, you are letting them play....but then Norman gets called for a foul on something happened on the other side of the field, well after the QB was pretty much conceding with the slide, and it had no bearing on the play at all.  Oh ok...so now any kind of contact at all gets a flag? Cool......oh wait now Doctson gets absolutely mugged, on a ball that hits his hands.....no call.

 

So a clear inconsistency within the game has been established.