Does Doctson even care?

[crwrunner]

It wasn’t the spinning of the ball necessarily that got the flag.  It was the pointing to the ball as he walked away looking at the falcons sideline.  

[justice98]

39 minutes ago, superozman said:

 

DRAFT PROJECTION

 Round 1

SOURCES TELL US

 "Pure technician. He's really good with those routes and he's the best at getting it up top. When he got hurt, TCU was done. They looked lost without him. He's a safe receiver for the first (round) and one of the only ones." -- AFC wide receivers coach

 

 

Pure technician?  That receivers coach shouldnt drink before watching film.

[Hdf561]

15 hours ago, superozman said:

 

Yup, Everyone was shocked, and no NFL Team knew who he was.  Here are a couple examples - should I find more?

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/josh-doctson?id=2555343

DRAFT PROJECTION

 Round 1

SOURCES TELL US

 "Pure technician. He's really good with those routes and he's the best at getting it up top. When he got hurt, TCU was done. They looked lost without him. He's a safe receiver for the first (round) and one of the only ones." -- AFC wide receivers coach

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2016/04/18/a-closer-look-at-josh-doctson-an-nfl-draft-prospect-the-redskins-could-select/?utm_term=.a0fad56f03f5

You can find all the examples you want, talent evaluators are no more than educated guessers, and the more examples you provide only proves how everyone was wrong about him. 

 

He is gonna have to catch about 20 more fade TD’s to convince me and a lot of people otherwise. 

 

To further her prove how much of a crap shoot talent evaluators are Tyreek Hill went in the 5th round...who would you say is better (hint it’s Hill and it’s not even close) 

[superozman]

4 hours ago, Hdf561 said:

You can find all the examples you want, talent evaluators are no more than educated guessers, and the more examples you provide only proves how everyone was wrong about him. 

 

He is gonna have to catch about 20 more fade TD’s to convince me and a lot of people otherwise. 

 

To further her prove how much of a crap shoot talent evaluators are Tyreek Hill went in the 5th round...who would you say is better (hint it’s Hill and it’s not even close) 

 

Wow, lol.  Do you even know the argument you are trying to make?  because I don't.

 

HDF56:   "Everyone was so shocked we drafted him in our first round because no other NFL team knew who he was."

Superoz:  Provides 2 sources where he should be a 1st round pick, proving there is no shock and other teams knew who he was

HDF56:  Completely changes argument to talent evaluators suck

 

[Morneblade]

1 hour ago, superozman said:

 

Wow, lol.  Do you even know the argument you are trying to make?  because I don't.

 

HDF56:   "Everyone was so shocked we drafted him in our first round because no other NFL team knew who he was."

Superoz:  Provides 2 sources where he should be a 1st round pick, proving there is no shock and no other team knew who he was

HDF56:  Completely changes argument to talent evaluators suck

 

 

It's called moving the goalposts. It what guys that can't be wrong get proven wrong. It's sad.

[NoCalMike]

Wasn't Amari Cooper viewed by most as a can't-miss 1st round talent as well?

 

These people do get it wrong a lot of times.

[mistertim]

7 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

Wasn't Amari Cooper viewed by most as a can't-miss 1st round talent as well?

 

These people do get it wrong a lot of times.

 

Actually Cooper turned out to be exactly what I thought he was going to be...a pretty good NFL WR but nothing amazing. He was a very "safe" choice, as far as WRs go. He was a good route runner with experience running a full route tree who had good but not elite measurables and nothing overly spectacular about his game. Cooper wasn't a "miss" as a draft pick; he wasn't a bust, but he didn't turn out to be a superstar or anything.

 

And as far as Doctson being a "technician" and people scoffing at that we should probably all remember that, even though pro scouts can definitely get things wrong, they're a hell of a lot more experienced and knowledgeable about that stuff than 99% of us on this board. I think he was almost universally considered a 1st round pick/talent. That means something.

 

Also, we don't have all of the film and see all of the practice that the Skins coaches do. Josh may actually be running very good routes for the most part; there were plenty of posts during training camp remarking on that same thing. Cooley has done film breakdowns and shown that our WR are getting open. Not wide open by 3 yards, but open....but the ball wasn't getting thrown to them. Not much they can do about that.

 

I'm not necessarily just trying to defend Doctson here because there are things about him that still frustrate me to hell. He seems prone to losing concentration on routine catches sometimes (like those two drops he had) but will then make some outstanding catches that require tons of concentration. But the idea that his relatively low production so far this year is somehow indicative that he's a "bust" or a bad route runner is just something that is really hard to decipher because of our QB situation.

[zCommander]

On 11/5/2018 at 4:53 PM, justice98 said:

 

Pure technician?  That receivers coach shouldnt drink before watching film.

 

Speaking of pure technician... Watch this.

 

 

 

Looks like Treadwell is not doing so well in Minn even with Kirk Cousins as his QB. 

[justice98]

1 hour ago, zskins said:

 

 

Looks like Treadwell is not doing so well in Minn even with Kirk Cousins as his QB. 

 

I think it's relative. He'll never be good enough to justify the pick, but he's actually having the best season of his career.  As a 3rd WR in that scheme, he can not be a bum against 3rd corners.  But he is catching the balls that are thrown to him, so there's that.  Doctson cant even muster that.

 

Fun fact, the only people with more receptions than Treadwell on our team, Jordan Reed and Chris Thompson.  

 

Another fun fact, the only player with more targets than Treadwell on our team is Jordan Reed.

 

On a team with Thielen and Diggs getting the ball thrown to them 25 times a game.

[zCommander]

27 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

I think it's relative. He'll never be good enough to justify the pick, but he's actually having the best season of his career.  As a 3rd WR in that scheme, he can not be a bum against 3rd corners.  But he is catching the balls that are thrown to him, so there's that.  Doctson cant even muster that.

 

Fun fact, the only people with more receptions than Treadwell on our team, Jordan Reed and Chris Thompson.  

 

Another fun fact, the only player with more targets than Treadwell on our team is Jordan Reed.

 

On a team with Thielen and Diggs getting the ball thrown to them 25 times a game.

 

Well sounds likes to me Doc needs to targeted more than. The more you throw to him the better he will be. I still think he is not that bad. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Doctson got off to a rough start last week but I thought he redeemed himself some some really good catches.  Keep hearing he's developing into a good blocker, which is helpful with this specific offense.  Cooley was an early critic of Doctson but I've been listening to his take this year which is Doctson still needs to improve but he thinks he's developing and improving. 

[RandyHolt]

When a WR has a ball knocked out of his hands immediately as the ball hits his hands, its a drop if:

 

It's our WR.  If it's an opposition WR, it was a great play by our DB, who should get a pass defended IMO. 

 

The slant he dropped was a meh throw. Yes it was a drop he should have caught - spare the carpel inducing rebuttal. IMO it doesn't excuse the ball placement that should be pin point in week 9 by the best in the world at these things. We get dick for YAK and that is all about hitting a guy in stride, not behind him and low.

 

I hope falling back to make catches on slants is practiced. If it isn't, it should be. That's the problem with the ball tossing machine in practice. They need to randomize those throws. Patent pending...

 

I added Mo to my only year long fantasy squad.

[DJHJR86]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Doctson got off to a rough start last week but I thought he redeemed himself some some really good catches.  Keep hearing he's developing into a good blocker, which is helpful with this specific offense.  Cooley was an early critic of Doctson but I've been listening to his take this year which is Doctson still needs to improve but he thinks he's developing and improving. 

 

I think that's why he's still seeing playing time over Mo Harris.  I've heard Harris isn't as good of a blocker.

[CTskin]

On 11/6/2018 at 7:50 AM, Hdf561 said:

To further her prove how much of a crap shoot talent evaluators are Tyreek Hill went in the 5th round...who would you say is better (hint it’s Hill and it’s not even close) 

 

Tyreek Hill only fell because of off-field issues. I believe that he had a domestic case on his hands during the draft. 

[Unbias]

He gives us just enough to not fully close the door on him. Extremely frustrating.

 

Into his 3rd season I can firmly say I have no idea what Josh Doctson is. I can probably tell you want he isn't, but I honestly have no idea what he is. 

[superozman]

This post has my mind going a bit.  With Mo' Harris showing he can run from the slot and be a reliable guy last week, Doctson should look to ball out.  I know that's not his mentality on the surface, doesn't mean it's not within him.  Tampa has given up a lot of points, but with this Oline its going to be a lot of quick hitters.  Will Doctson get the separation this week?

[bobandweave]

On 11/6/2018 at 9:07 AM, NoCalMike said:

Wasn't Amari Cooper viewed by most as a can't-miss 1st round talent as well?

 

These people do get it wrong a lot of times.

 

Drafting WR in the first round historically has been a very risky thing to do:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2441018-which-positions-are-the-safest-riskiest-at-the-top-of-the-nfl-draft

 

Here's the thing about Josh Doctson to remember. He was drafted in 2016. He has only played in 25 out of a possible 48 games. That's almost 50% of the games he could have played in missed.  

 

So looking at his "stats" his targets to receptions rate is improving the more he is playing:

 

2018 - He is catching the ball at a 54% 
2017 - He is catching the ball at a 44%
2016 - He is catching the ball at a 28%

 

So he is making more catches with the targets he is getting the older and more experience he gets. When I compare that to Crowders first three years its different:

 

2017 - He is catching the ball at a 63%

2016 - He is catching the ball at a 69%

2015 - He is catching the ball at a 74%

 

One guys going up, one guys going down. The NFL average for receivers catching the ball when it's thrown to them is 0.68%

 

I've not completely given up on either guy at this point. I heard some people suggesting that the team cut Doctson but that would be a mistake imo. If he continues to improve his catch rate per target then he will shed his 50/50 reputation. I never liked his speed but his catch radius I did so if he can catch the ball more with that radius he could still become a decent NFL receiver.

 

More likely then not Doctson and Treadwell will both be first round busts at this point but I don't think it's time to give up on Josh. He has one more season on his rookie deal to show us something and that's a cheap cost. And it's not like this team is stacked with other options.

[bird_1972]

@bobandweave - I assume the figures are not meant to be expressed as fractions of percentages but as percentages? 

 

In other words, Doctson's catch rate (targets to receptions) is 54% and not 0.54%?

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

Half way into his 3rd season and he has been a total disappointment. Does he have any trade value at this point, I'd take a 5th or 6 rounder for him tbh.

22 hours ago, Unbias said:

 

Into his 3rd season I can firmly say I have no idea what Josh Doctson is. I can probably tell you want he isn't, but I honestly have no idea what he is. 

Maybe this will help

 

[Est.1974]

^now that made me laugh a hell of a lot.

 

 

[Cooleyfan1993]

^sure, TECHNICALLY it’s his 3rd season. But can we honestly sit here and call 2 games in his rookie year his first season? Obviously in 2016 he’s not going to be productive having only played 2 games. 

 

He had 6 TDs last year. Has 1 this year. In my opinion I’d just let him play out his contract and see where he’s at by then. If he’s still dropping catches and has less than 6 TDs next year, with 3 FULL seasons under his belt, then sure, cut him and find someone else. 

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

4 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

^sure, TECHNICALLY it’s his 3rd season. But can we honestly sit here and call 2 games in his rookie year his first season? Obviously in 2016 he’s not going to be productive having only played 2 games. 

 

He had 6 TDs last year. Has 1 this year. In my opinion I’d just let him play out his contract and see where he’s at by then. If he’s still dropping catches and has less than 6 TDs next year, with 3 FULL seasons under his belt, then sure, cut him and find someone else. 

Cmon man, This is first round talent we are talking about here. When you draft first round you should be seeing flashes of brilliance aka Calvin Riddley & William Fuller with that said Im looking through the list of 1st round WR's drafted the past 3 seasons and i see alot of under achievers on the list so.... Maybe we are expecting to much.

[Cooleyfan1993]

1 minute ago, JoeJacobyHOForRIOT said:

Cmon man, This is first round talent we are talking about here. When you draft first round you should be seeing flashes of brilliance aka Calvin Riddley & William Fuller with that said Im looking through the list of 1st round WR's drafted the past 3 seasons and i see alot of under achievers on the list so.... Maybe we are expecting to much.

I certainly saw flashes last year. Long catch against Seattle, TD against the raiders, TD Against the broncos, his game against the saints. 

 

I think all our WRs had a tough start to this season, and i can’t blame em after having seen what they have to deal with at QB. Although Doctson has been quietly having some good games these last 3 weeks i think. 

 

 

[Kelvin Bryant]

On ‎11‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 4:50 PM, crwrunner said:

It wasn’t the spinning of the ball necessarily that got the flag.  It was the pointing to the ball as he walked away looking at the falcons sideline.  

I have it on good authority that he also wiggled his ears in an aggressive and condescending manner.

[Est.1974]

I've been opened minded to Doctson actually pulling his game around. Some signs of recent progression, but he still looks like a good game in his world is 5 catches for 50 yards. Hardly in the best set up right now either.