Kenny Mayne: Dear Fellow White People: Or should I have said ‘Caucasian’?

[CousinsCowgirl84]

nvm

[Renegade7]

On 7/3/2018 at 10:35 PM, Kosher Ham said:

Hell, I was accused of having some type of privilege... I never got my membership card. Must be because I'm not white. 

You had me fooled, but I like it wasn't as obvious

[Zguy28]

14 hours ago, Gamebreaker said:

“If you color code the districts based on their racial composition you see this very stark breakdown. At any given poverty level, districts that have a higher proportion of white students get substantially higher funding than districts that have more minority students.” That means that no matter how rich or poor the district in question, funding gaps existed solely based on the racial composition of the school. Just the increased presence of minority students actually deflated a district’s funding level. “The ones that have a few more students of color get lower funding than the ones that are 100 percent or 95 percent white,” Mosenkis said.' From September 2015. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/public-school-funding-and-the-role-of-race/408085/

 

BTW, this stuff is really easy to find. 

Great article. I'm going to pass it on to some folks. One question I was left with was: while the data indicates the gaps, do we know for certain that racial makeup is the cause? Or could another conclusion be reached as to cause?

 

I'm basically trying to answer a question in advance I know some will ask me when I present this data in conversation or argument over racial reconciliation.

[Zguy28]

On a somewhat encouraging note...

 

 

[grego]

15 hours ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

I have provided links before when people wanted references on this. Here you go:

 

This first one is a study on the funding disparities between rural and urban schools. 

https://cpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/blogs.gwu.edu/dist/9/552/files/2015/08/disparaties.pdf

 

"Santelises, in a statement to CNN, said Thursday that "too many of our buildings have outdated heating systems, poor insulation, and aging pipes as a result of years of inadequate funding for maintenance and facilities improvements."' This was January 2018 in regards to the conditions the Baltimore City schools.  

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/04/us/baltimore-schools-cold/index.html

 

'“You hear the water dripping?” said Lakia Wilson, the guidance counselor, nodding at the spot on the floor where water from the roof had accumulated into a cloudy pool. The day after a reporter and a photographer were given a tour of the building, health officials arrived at the school and blocked access to the gym with sheets of plastic, a teacher said." This is January 2016. Funding in Detroit's schools was so bad that the teachers staged a strike....which also left students with no education while that was happening. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/21/us/crumbling-destitute-schools-threaten-detroits-recovery.html

 

'“If you color code the districts based on their racial composition you see this very stark breakdown. At any given poverty level, districts that have a higher proportion of white students get substantially higher funding than districts that have more minority students.” That means that no matter how rich or poor the district in question, funding gaps existed solely based on the racial composition of the school. Just the increased presence of minority students actually deflated a district’s funding level. “The ones that have a few more students of color get lower funding than the ones that are 100 percent or 95 percent white,” Mosenkis said.' From September 2015. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/public-school-funding-and-the-role-of-race/408085/

 

BTW, this stuff is really easy to find. 

 

 

schools and why some are better than others is a topic thats very interesting to me. when i've looked into it, it seems the answers vary, even when it comes to what seems to be a pretty straight forward question like 'how much is spent per pupil'. i'd really like to know who has the right answer to this, rather than the answer that someone wants to hear. 

 

the fact that school funding varies, or that the best teachers tend to be at the least needy schools, while the 'worst' teachers tend to be at the most needy schools seems like a problem that should have been fixed a long time ago. why it hasnt been fixed is something i'd like to know. i will say that it appears that, regardless of school funding, there are several things that can be done to make schools perform better (longer school days, longer years, better teachers, among others- why this isnt implemented is another question).

 

clearly, funds need to be spent on the schools that need it. schools that are in disrepair because of underfunding (as opposed to mismanagement) or schools that arent paying for the best teachers- that needs to be addressed. but i dont think its the case that funding is the be all, end all, as in, if we only fix the funding, schools would be basically equal. ive read studies that say that as funding has gone up, performance has stagnated. that appears to go hand in hand with DCsaintsfan point about DC schools. they appear to be the best funded in the nation, but don't perform at a comparable level. is that mismanagement of funds? i genuinely do not know the answer. 

[Destino]

2 hours ago, Zguy28 said:

Great article. I'm going to pass it on to some folks. One question I was left with was: while the data indicates the gaps, do we know for certain that racial makeup is the cause? Or could another conclusion be reached as to cause?

 

I'm basically trying to answer a question in advance I know some will ask me when I present this data in conversation or argument over racial reconciliation.

Looking at the data I’m immediately curious about limiting the data to per student spending.  A large percentage of white students that are on school lunch assistance programs suggests a rural setting and possibly smaller schools.  Much of that data could be showing that smaller schools, maybe shrinking schools, are simply less efficient.  Distances between students and schools in rural areas might make consolidating schools impossible or they may be getting too much funding.  It’s impossible to know without a closer examination.  

 

[Bozo the kKklown]

2 hours ago, Zguy28 said:

On a somewhat encouraging note...

 

 

Its a terrible stereotype that keeps being perpetuated by people who have it in their best interest to demonize black people. It's really that.the current president does that, but that also comes from media perceptions and with a lot of these conglomerates having investments in private prisons, it wont end.

 

53 minutes ago, grego said:

 

 

schools and why some are better than others is a topic thats very interesting to me. when i've looked into it, it seems the answers vary, even when it comes to what seems to be a pretty straight forward question like 'how much is spent per pupil'. i'd really like to know who has the right answer to this, rather than the answer that someone wants to hear. 

 

the fact that school funding varies, or that the best teachers tend to be at the least needy schools, while the 'worst' teachers tend to be at the most needy schools seems like a problem that should have been fixed a long time ago. why it hasnt been fixed is something i'd like to know. i will say that it appears that, regardless of school funding, there are several things that can be done to make schools perform better (longer school days, longer years, better teachers, among others- why this isnt implemented is another question).

 

clearly, funds need to be spent on the schools that need it. schools that are in disrepair because of underfunding (as opposed to mismanagement) or schools that arent paying for the best teachers- that needs to be addressed. but i dont think its the case that funding is the be all, end all, as in, if we only fix the funding, schools would be basically equal. ive read studies that say that as funding has gone up, performance has stagnated. that appears to go hand in hand with DCsaintsfan point about DC schools. they appear to be the best funded in the nation, but don't perform at a comparable level. is that mismanagement of funds? i genuinely do not know the answer. 

There is a lot of mismanagement in public schools. But we have to be honest, states should not be establishing school curriculum. That should be federal. It is why some parts of America learn about creationism and some parts learn about evolution.

 

And its why property taxes mean good or bad education. That needs to be change, but it won't. Especially when it is in the best interest of many to keep citizens stupid and then vote against themselves.

 

 

I also had a thought, why isnt "Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion" taught as a subject in our schools? On the same plane as math, science, reading, etc. 

[JCB]

Love that idea, Benning. I think those themes need to be front and center, in Civics classes, History classes, and elsewhere.

[DCSaints_fan]

17 hours ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

I have provided links before when people wanted references on this. Here you go:

 

This first one is a study on the funding disparities between rural and urban schools. 

https://cpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/blogs.gwu.edu/dist/9/552/files/2015/08/disparaties.pdf

 

"Santelises, in a statement to CNN, said Thursday that "too many of our buildings have outdated heating systems, poor insulation, and aging pipes as a result of years of inadequate funding for maintenance and facilities improvements."' This was January 2018 in regards to the conditions the Baltimore City schools.  

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/04/us/baltimore-schools-cold/index.html

 

'“You hear the water dripping?” said Lakia Wilson, the guidance counselor, nodding at the spot on the floor where water from the roof had accumulated into a cloudy pool. The day after a reporter and a photographer were given a tour of the building, health officials arrived at the school and blocked access to the gym with sheets of plastic, a teacher said." This is January 2016. Funding in Detroit's schools was so bad that the teachers staged a strike....which also left students with no education while that was happening. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/21/us/crumbling-destitute-schools-threaten-detroits-recovery.html

 

'“If you color code the districts based on their racial composition you see this very stark breakdown. At any given poverty level, districts that have a higher proportion of white students get substantially higher funding than districts that have more minority students.” That means that no matter how rich or poor the district in question, funding gaps existed solely based on the racial composition of the school. Just the increased presence of minority students actually deflated a district’s funding level. “The ones that have a few more students of color get lower funding than the ones that are 100 percent or 95 percent white,” Mosenkis said.' From September 2015. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/public-school-funding-and-the-role-of-race/408085/

 

BTW, this stuff is really easy to find. 

 

 

Ok I'll go through all the articles on the links when I have a bit more time...  I would note that last article from the Atlantic, claimed there was a disparity but didn't give any hard numbers.   I was looking for something a bit more simple like the following comparison between Fairfax and DC.  For DC especially, I'm getting numbers all over the place (probably because they are a major target of right wing ), so I'll go with the numbers that FCPS self reports and a number from the Washington post 

 

Fairfax  $14,767 https://www.fcps.edu/about-fcps

DC  $17,953 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/06/02/the-states-that-spend-the-most-and-the-least-on-education-in-one-map/?utm_term=.137965c00f51

[Zguy28]

1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

There is a lot of mismanagement in public schools. But we have to be honest, states should not be establishing school curriculum. That should be federal. It is why some parts of America learn about creationism and some parts learn about evolution.

 

And its why property taxes mean good or bad education. That needs to be change, but it won't. Especially when it is in the best interest of many to keep citizens stupid and then vote against themselves.

 

 

I also had a thought, why isnt "Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion" taught as a subject in our schools? On the same plane as math, science, reading, etc. 

Unfortunately for that line of reasoning, its technically unconstitutional and outside the Fed's role. Agree on the last part. Ironically, that is where "university" comes from "unity in diversity."

[Gamebreaker]

4 hours ago, Zguy28 said:

Great article. I'm going to pass it on to some folks. One question I was left with was: while the data indicates the gaps, do we know for certain that racial makeup is the cause? Or could another conclusion be reached as to cause?

 

I'm basically trying to answer a question in advance I know some will ask me when I present this data in conversation or argument over racial reconciliation.

 

I am not certain, Zguy, but you've always seemed an honest and reasonable guy to me, and as I recall, also a public school teacher as well. If you find any alternative conclusions in regards to this I'm all ears, or if there are any resources you know that I can look into, that would also be helpful. 

[Zguy28]

3 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

I am not certain, Zguy, but you've always seemed an honest and reasonable guy to me, and as I recall, also a public school teacher as well. If you find any alternative conclusions in regards to this I'm all ears, or if there are any resources you know that I can look into, that would also be helpful. 

I'm not a teacher, just a preacher who moonlights as an IT guy during the day.

 

I can't really find an alternative, but I know folks won't be convinced when no other possible causes were discussed. I am inclined to agree with the author more than not.

[Gamebreaker]

2 hours ago, grego said:

 

 

schools and why some are better than others is a topic thats very interesting to me. when i've looked into it, it seems the answers vary, even when it comes to what seems to be a pretty straight forward question like 'how much is spent per pupil'. i'd really like to know who has the right answer to this, rather than the answer that someone wants to hear. 

 

the fact that school funding varies, or that the best teachers tend to be at the least needy schools, while the 'worst' teachers tend to be at the most needy schools seems like a problem that should have been fixed a long time ago. why it hasnt been fixed is something i'd like to know. i will say that it appears that, regardless of school funding, there are several things that can be done to make schools perform better (longer school days, longer years, better teachers, among others- why this isnt implemented is another question).

 

clearly, funds need to be spent on the schools that need it. schools that are in disrepair because of underfunding (as opposed to mismanagement) or schools that arent paying for the best teachers- that needs to be addressed. but i dont think its the case that funding is the be all, end all, as in, if we only fix the funding, schools would be basically equal. ive read studies that say that as funding has gone up, performance has stagnated. that appears to go hand in hand with DCsaintsfan point about DC schools. they appear to be the best funded in the nation, but don't perform at a comparable level. is that mismanagement of funds? i genuinely do not know the answer. 

 

Sometimes it's all about the details. I recall a discussion about this topic we had some years back. Baltimore City Schools was brought up, the fact that spending was high there compared to surrounding counties was mentioned, but upon going into detail on what they were spending that money on, it was found they were spending significantly more than other counties on feeding students. It doesn't suprise me at all that low income students qualify for free breakfast and lunch in higher percentages. I wish I would've kept the link I saw that provided that data, as those are the kind of details that aren't known when the discussion is relying solely on money spent per child.

 

I will agree, that funding isn't the sole reason for underperforming schools. The classroom environment, involvement(or lack thereof) of the parents, and neighborhood all contribute. 

[Bozo the kKklown]

19 minutes ago, Zguy28 said:

Unfortunately for that line of reasoning, its technically unconstitutional and outside the Fed's role. Agree on the last part. Ironically, that is where "university" comes from "unity in diversity."

Something needs to change because public schools and are not equal are not working. I dont want corporate overlords to take over the schools, but this isnt working either.

 

But yeah, we need to make ending discrimination a real subject and put it in kids minds in elementary school.

1 hour ago, JCB said:

Love that idea, Benning. I think those themes need to be front and center, in Civics classes, History classes, and elsewhere.

its what will save this country. we need

[LD0506]

The mere fact that conversations such as this among a wide range of people happen still gives me hope.

 

At the same time I will admit that hope may be misplaced.

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

http://www.marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Pages/School-Community-Nutrition/FreeReducedPriceMealStatistics.aspx

 

Click link for Free or Reduced per county.

 

82% - Balt City, Somerset

34% - Mo Co

22% - Howard Co

 

https://conduitstreet.mdcounties.org/2017/10/04/chart-shows-marylands-2017-school-funding-per-student/

 

Link to funding breakdown by County. Fed-State-Local contributions. 

 

Balt City has a higher percent of public safety and disabilities needs that Howard County does not. Balt City also mismanages the money they do have and have the highest "admin" cost of any school district in the Country, by a lot. I just dont think its realistic to expect the Fed and State to kick in even more money. Even if they do, what is another 1k per student going to do? 

 

Mo Co and Howard County spend a lot more of their local taxes on schools and get much less in fed and State contribution. 

 

Howard County taxes in no way should and never will go towards other county school districts. How could County taxes go to something outside the County? Howard County residents State taxes already disproportionately go to other County school budgets comparatively. 

 

I love Baltimore ... but its a uniquely ****ed up place that commits a lot of self inflicted wounds. 

 

 

 

 

 

[zoony]

1 minute ago, Why am I Mr. Pink? said:

Balt City has a higher percent of public safety and disabilities needs that Howard County does not. Balt City also mismanages the money they do have and have the highest "admin" cost of any school district in the Country, by a lot. I just dont think its realistic to expect the Fed and State to kick in even more money. Even if they do, what is another 1k per student going to do? 

 

 

There is a cultural change that needs to happen within the lower economic classes.

 

Money isnt going to solve it.  With proper motivation a world class education could be had for free at the public library.  Money isnt the issue with failing inner city schools.  Its a failure of the lowest income americans to be content with generational poverty and ignorance.

[Gamebreaker]

Just now, zoony said:

 

 

There is a cultural change that needs to happen within the lower economic classes.

 

Money isnt going to solve it.  With proper motivation a world class education could be had for free at the public library.  Money isnt the issue with failing inner city schools.  Its a failure of the lowest income americans to be content with generational poverty and ignorance.

 

......and we're back to this unsubstantiated bull****. Well...intelligent discussion was nice while it lasted. 

[abdcskins]

What is this thread about?  Pizza?

[TheGreatBuzz]

1 hour ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

......and we're back to this unsubstantiated bull****. Well...intelligent discussion was nice while it lasted. 

I think (hope) that what he meant isn't far off the mark and he worded it poorly.

 

Low income families are more likely to remain low income across a sample of time.  I don't think it is that they are "content" there but that many (not saying all) either don't know how to get out of that cycle or are too busy just trying to stay afloat.  Throwing money isn't going to solve it though.  There needs to be a change of mindset in a lot of communities.  I work with a lot of young guys (and some gals) that "take pride" and "think it's cool" (quotes for not knowing how to better describe it) in being thugs because they are from a poverty area.  Instead of being happy they have gotten out of the area or talking how they would like to go back and make it better they instead talk about how cool or hard they are because of it.  That mindset needs to change.  But damn if I know how to change it.

 

Note* and the thugs remark isn't insinuating black people.  There are people of all colors that act like that.  I will note it seems a lot more popular with the guys though.

[grego]

8 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I think (hope) that what he meant isn't far off the mark and he worded it poorly.

 

Low income families are more likely to remain low income across a sample of time.  I don't think it is that they are "content" there but that many (not saying all) either don't know how to get out of that cycle or are too busy just trying to stay afloat.  Throwing money isn't going to solve it though.  There needs to be a change of mindset in a lot of communities.

 

i read much of the US Commission on Civil Rights report on Public Education Funding Inequity https://www.usccr.gov/pubs/2018-01-10-Education-Inequity.pdf

it seems to advocate for more money. this last part, a dissenting opinion starting on page 125, seems to be what you and zoony are saying- 

 

Quote

 

Dissenting Statement of Commissioner Peter Kirsanow

Money and Education

The Commission’s report and recommendations boil down to one thing: spend more money. Fine. Spend more money. Lots and lots of money. Spew money into the educational air like you’re drilling for oil and just hit a gusher. But it won’t matter. Nothing much will change. Because the primary problem with our education system is not lack of money. (Get out the defibrillators.) The Department of Education periodically issues the Digest of Education Statistics, which, among other things, tracks education spending over time. On the next several pages there is a chart of annual per-pupil expenditures from 1919-2013.The figures below emphatically confirm that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing (in this case, increasing spending) over and over and expecting a different result

---------------------

 

Education and Family

The crux of this report is “more money” because money is something we can control. Per-pupil education spending has doubled since the 1970s, but NAEP scores are flat. But despite the report’s dogged efforts to downplay the Coleman Report’s determination that a child’s family is the most important factor in his academic success, the Coleman Report’s insight has only been confirmed by 50 years of societal disintegration. Money isn’t the problem—family decay is the problem.The report barely discusses the issue of family structure, which is the single greatest factor in education outcomes, and no amount of government spending will change the fact that family structure has disintegrated as government spending has exploded.

 

Consider Utah, which in 2015 had the lowest out-of-wedlock birthrate in the country at 18.8 percent which is only slightly below the level Daniel Patrick Moynihan considered catastrophic in the African-American community sixty-two years ago. Utah also has the lowest per-pupil educational expenditures - $6,546 per student. Yet Utah’s 2015 NAEP scores for math and reading were classified as “significantly higher” than the national public average. On the other hand, 39.5 percent of New York state births were out of wedlock, which puts it right in the middle of the pack. New York also spends $20,156 per-pupil, more than any other state. But its NAEP scores are also average, and its mathematics scores among fourth-graders were significantly lower than the national public average. There are ten states where more than 45 percent of 2015 births were out of wedlock—Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Delaware, and Rhode Island—and all but two of those states had NAEP scores significantly below the national average. And the ten states that had the lowest percentage of illegitimate births—Washington, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, Nebraska, North Dakota, Minnesota, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts—all had NAEP scores at or above the national average.

 

 

[TheGreatBuzz]

5 minutes ago, grego said:

i read much of the US Commission on Civil Rights report on Public Education Funding Inequity https://www.usccr.gov/pubs/2018-01-10-Education-Inequity.pdf

it seems to advocate for more money. this last part, a dissenting opinion starting on page 125, seems to be what you and zoony are saying- 

I appreciate your commitment but I ain't reading all that.  Like most things, the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.  Some places need more money, some places need to spend their money more wisely, some places need a change of mindset, and some need all 3 (plus probably a few more).

 

There is rarely one thing that will fix it all.

[zoony]

1 hour ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

......and we're back to this unsubstantiated bull****. Well...intelligent discussion was nice while it lasted. 

 

Lmao, glad you know me so well.  Youre  a ****ing idiot if you think `better teachers` and more money is going to solve jack **** among this countrys poor.  

 

Thats what is wrong with americans... always looking for someone to do it for them or someone to blame.  Whining little ****es, and, might i add, cowards.

 

Its why i love immigrants.  They come to this country and work their asses off, and in many cases, take full advantage of this countries opportunities and educational system  

 

Come on down i will let you spend a few days teaching down here, you can deal with the trailer park kids and then tell me with a straight face that more money is gonna solve it 

[Kosher Ham]

4 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

. It's really that.the current president does that, but that also comes from media perceptions and with a lot of these conglomerates having investments in private prisons, it wont end.

 

The president isn't posting on World Star. Nor is mainstream media. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Let’s say someone was a burned-out, kinda angry teacher that couldn’t reach their students...

 

Would they whine about it and blame the kids or would they work their ass of and take full advantage of the opportunities?