Miami Herald: I’m done trying to understand Trump supporters. Why don’t they try to understand me?

[No Excuses]

24 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I havent even started looking at 2020 candidates so I dont know what they are saying.

 

So what parts makes everything I said makes it the GOP rebranded?  Was it the free Community College? Or legalizing marijuana at the federal level? Or was it the raise of the minimum wage just not to $15 an hour? No, it must have been the increased gun controls! Totally a GOP talking point.

 

Fair enough. GOP rebranded wasn’t a fair statement. 

 

However your views on education, wages and whatever you mean by “personal responsibility” don’t really make much sense to be honest for a left wing party.

 

1. Supporting free or even more subsidies for college education is maybe the best thing we can do for the US economy and keeping this country globally competitive. Every major developed country on earth invests heavily in the education of their citizens in a bipartisan manner. 

 

2. “Dems don’t support personal responsibility” is the silliest, most overused conservative stereotype of liberal politics. Frankly, this is what led me to brand you as asking for a GOP-lite platform. 

 

3. What’s a fair minimum wage if not $15/hr? Whatever number you come up with, why that? Is it backed by sound economic analysis or is it just a number that feels fair?

Edited May 29, 2018 by No Excuses

[CousinsCowgirl84]

Are we sure this articles isn’t just another one of those Russian articles meant to divide?  Fight hate with hate. Logical....

Edited May 29, 2018 by CousinsCowgirl84

[88Comrade2000]

If the Dems want to win a national election, they need a centrist. Thing  is, the base of the Democratic party is more progressive. They lean to the Sanders-Warren wing.  The country isn't there and may not be with progressives for a while.

 

Odds are strong the Dems nominate someone who can't beat Trump in 2020.

 

TGB looking for what he wants in the Dem party, it won't happen.  The GOP isn't fixable, they are a trumpist party now.

[luckydevil]

3 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

If the Dems want to win a national election, they need a centrist. Thing  is, the base of the Democratic party is more progressive. They lean to the Sanders-Warren wing.  The country isn't there and may not be with progressives for a while.

 

.

 

I am not so sure. May not be there socially, but on a lot of economic issues I can think a left wing candidate could win. Bernie would have won.

[TheGreatBuzz]

33 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

@TheGreatBuzz , hate to break it to you, but @No Excuses is right, you're either asking for too much or things we're already talking about anyway. 

 

The "personal responsibility" thing is really weak, like where you are born is your decision.  I hate that you don't want to forgive any student loan debt and instead of addressing why people are defaulting, you want to give classes to let them know how rediculously expensive it is even though they have to do it anyway to stay competitive in the current job market.

 

This should be its own thread "How can DNC reach out to conservatives that don't want to vote for Trump", but a lot of what you're talking about indicates you aren't listening to us, either.  If you want us to be the GOP lite, fix your own party, shrinking the federal government is the opposite of our political ideology, that is an unreasonable request right there..

I in no way expect to get all of it.  I was answering the question "What is it specifically you want democratic candidate to change in their platform for you to vote for them?"  And that is some of what I want.  But what I want and what I think is fair is two different things.  I was just pointing out some highlights.  Any voter who thinks they will find anyone who agree's 100% with them is an idiot.  Like I said, they are negotiable.  I don't know that this should be it's own thread.  Maybe the "fixing the Dem party" thread?  But this thread seems close enough to me.  If this thread is really just going to be how to get Trump supporters to listen to the Left, you may as well close the thread because that **** ain't happening.  And regarding shrinking the Fed, I didn't mean cutting the services they provide (though I would like a little of that but don't expect it from the Dems) I just meant cutting some of the waste.  This is probably a bigger issue to me because I see so much of the waste on a daily basis.

21 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

The DNC can’t fix the GOP, only GOP voters can do that.

 

Get in there and fight, Buzz.

I left the GOP when the Muslim ban was announced.  I finally deemed them un-fixable.  Are you saying I should go re-register as a GOP'er?  Can I get a card that certifies me as not one of "those GOP people" but just there to fix it from the inside?  Because I don't want to be associated with that party.  I want to be associated with what they at least used to say they stood for.

11 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

Fair enough. GOP rebranded wasn’t a fair statement. 

 

However your views on education, wages and whatever you mean by “personal responsibility” don’t really make much sense to be honest for a left wing party.

 

1. Supporting free or even more subsidies for college education is maybe the best thing we can do for the US economy and keeping this country globally competitive. Every major developed country on earth invests heavily in the education of their citizens in a bipartisan manner. 

 

2. “Dems don’t support personal responsibility” is the silliest, most overused conservative stereotype of liberal politics. Frankly, this is what led me to brand you as asking for a GOP-lite platform. 

 

3. What’s a fair minimum wage if not $15/hr? Whatever number you come up with, why that? Is it backed by sound economic analysis or is it just a number that feels fair?

How so?  I have no problem with some sort of free community college.  My issue is with the kid that wants to move across the country and live in the dorm at a top tier school while not even attempting to get any type of scholarship all so he can get a useless art history degree.  Honestly our whole higher education system could use a reboot.  But that is for another thread.

This ties into the "personal responsibility" part.  I know there are some truly predatory college loan lenders out there and I could be talked into addressing their loans.  But for the most part, people just got dumb loans and I'm not cool with letting them off the hook.  There are so many other options they should have used.  Hell, you know the #1 reason people join the military nowadays?  College money.  I had a kid working for me not that long ago that had been in for like 5 years and just finished law school.  He was studying for the Bar exam on lunch breaks.  

RE: minimum wage.  $15/hr may be fair in some areas.  I would prefer it be a % of cost of living in the area.  The system to determine that is already in place.  It is how the military decides how much to give you for housing in a given zip code.  Like I said, $15/hr may be fair in downtown Seattle but then outrageously high in Roanoke, VA. 

 

 

What should the Dems do for 2020?  Who knows.  But they may not want to listen to the same pollsters they had in 2016.  Should they move more Left?  Stay the same?  Move more to the Center?  That is hard to say.  But if they want my vote, that is some things I would like to see.  Again, doesn't have to be all of them.  Everything is negotiable.

 

##what is everyone's thoughts regarding thread?   Should it stay here, go in a new thread, or a different existing one?  So many different topics that can be discussed I am torn.

 

[88Comrade2000]

3 hours ago, luckydevil said:

 

I am not so sure. May not be there socially, but on a lot of economic issues I can think a left wing candidate could win. Bernie would have won.

Bernie would've been crushed.  Bernie wouldn't have survived the national scrutiny.  The GOP would've torn him to shreds. He would've lost worse than Hillary did.

[twa]

you can't lose worse 

[No Excuses]

 

[Riggo-toni]

But what a tremendous NASCAR fan he will grow up to be....

[zoony]

20 hours ago, luckydevil said:

 

I am not so sure. May not be there socially, but on a lot of economic issues I can think a left wing candidate could win. Bernie would have won.

 

Do you put any stock in Russian meddling and support of his campaign or no?

 

The only thing that is clear from the hard intelligence surrounding russian interfernce is that they really, really, really did not like Hillary.  I would love to learn more as to why, specifically.  If someone has a link that does not involve an unsubstantied dossier, id love to read it.  Clearly there were some ploicy things that they felt very threatened by

[zoony]

13 hours ago, No Excuses said:

 

 

Shes wrong.  The REALLY sad thing is the medias response to being labeled fake news.  They will play perfectly into the hands of the fake news accusers by doing what they do.  Chasing clicks, sensationalism, bull****, and general bias.

 

The absolute greatest line from Michelle Wolf, which went COMPLETELY unreported, was her calling out the media for their economic interest in the Trump campaign and presidency.  Nobody is getting richer.

 

They just need the support of millions to click their links, read their twitter, and walk around all day in a state of perpetual outrage.  All while accusing others of being brainwashed.  (Thats my favorite part).  Watch the cash roll in, and boy has it ever.

[No Excuses]

Just now, zoony said:

 

Shes wrong.  The REALLY sad thing is the medias response to being labeled fake news.  They will play perfectly into the hands of the fake news accusers by doing what they do.  Chasing clicks, sensationalism, bull****, and general bias.

 

The absolute greatest line from Michelle Wolf, which went COMPLETELY unreported, was her calling out the media for their economic interest in the Trump campaign and presidency.  Nobody is getting richer.

 

They just need the support of millions to click their links, read their twitter, and walk around all day in a state of perpetual outrage.  All while accusing others of being brainwashed.  (Thats my favorite part).  Watch the cash roll in, and boy has it ever.

 

I agree with you. But I think you are conflating journalists who do the ground work with their executives who are raking in money and huge profits off the back of Trumpism.

 

Most journalists in this country work insane hours, with poor job security and mediocre pay. They all seem to be bearing the brunt of abuse at the hands of those who are convinced that everyone reporting things contradictory to their political views is a fake news peddler. 

 

Also the trash at CNN, Fox, MSNBC is who I think Michelle Wolf was (rightly) going after. They shouldn’t be lumped with the good journalism that is still being done by print and digital newspapers.

[Renegade7]

21 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Are we sure this articles isn’t just another one of those Russian articles meant to divide?  Fight hate with hate. Logical....

Miami Herald is not Fake News.

[zoony]

1 minute ago, No Excuses said:

 

I agree with you. But I think you are conflating journalists who do the ground work with their executives who are raking in money and huge profits off the back of Trumpism.

 

Most journalists in this country work insane hours, with poor job security and mediocre pay. They all seem to be bearing the brunt of abuse at the hands of those who are convinced that everyone reporting things contradictory to their political views is a fake news peddler. 

 

Also the trash at CNN, Fox, MSNBC is who I think Michelle Wolf was (rightly) going after. They shouldn’t be lumped with the good journalism that is still being done by print and digital newspapers.

 

Unfortunately, the line is getting blurred

 

A good strategy for quality journalists would be to further define and seperate themselves from the mainstream, every opportunity.  I dont know if there is a Trade organization that they could form and admit members to, but that would be a good start maybe.  I.e., NYT reporting as a member of TSFRJ

 

Regardless, right now john q public does not see a difference between the wapo and cnn.  Its all just `mainstream`.  Which is a problem

[No Excuses]

Just now, zoony said:

Regardless, right now john q public does not see a difference between the wapo and cnn.  Its all just `mainstream`.  Which is a problem

 

This is done for literally everything though. Any institution that contradicts the right wing view of the world is labeled a mainstream agent of the deep state now. 

 

The responsibility for correcting this nonsense lies at the feet of conservative leaders.

[zoony]

4 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

This is done for literally everything though. Any institution that contradicts the right wing view of the world is labeled a mainstream agent of the deep state now. 

 

The responsibility for correcting this nonsense lies at the feet of conservative leaders.

 

Why?  Politicians are going for power.  Media are going for clicks and followers.  Saying that its their responsibility to clean anything up is naive.  Its the same way on the left.  You think Schumer is wasting his breath trying to tell msnbc to cool it?  No, and nor should he.

 

Also, calling all conservatives trump supporters is akin to labeling all dems bernie supporters.  

 

The story of the 2016 election is and always will be that hillary was an awful candidate who didnt try.  Attempts to make it about a million other things is doing nothing but galvanizing the country and convincing folks that the dems truly are mentally ill, and are indeed trying to build a victim culture society.  Best not to do that.  Best to find a good candidate and put him or her up for election.  Probably makes sense to campaign outside of NY and CA, too

[mrcunning15]

25 minutes ago, zoony said:

 

Do you put any stock in Russian meddling and support of his campaign or no?

 

The only thing that is clear from the hard intelligence surrounding russian interfernce is that they really, really, really did not like Hillary.  I would love to learn more as to why, specifically.  If someone has a link that does not involve an unsubstantied dossier, id love to read it.  Clearly there were some ploicy things that they felt very threatened by

6

 

 

Watch the PBS Frontline Putin's Revenge it gives a really good overview of the whole situation.

[zoony]

4 minutes ago, mrcunning15 said:

 

 

Watch the PBS Frontline Putin's Revenge it gives a really good overview of the whole situation.

 

Will do, i did see one frontline episode on putin before the election.  Which was very interesting in painting him almost as a tragic figure, someone who is now required to hold on to power.  If he steps down at this point he will be tried and hung within 6 months.  Its a take i hadnt considered, but makes perfect sense.

 

Heavy is the head that wears the crown

[Chachie]

On 5/13/2018 at 11:43 AM, No Excuses said:

 

The idea that society be nice and understanding to people who vote for things like "Mexicans are rapists and murders" and "Grab em by the ****" is a bunch of BS. Ridicule and mock these people at every chance you get and do not give up an inch. We have to set standards for what is acceptable and what isn't in our communities. Reasoning with people who tolerate bigotry and hate to achieve political gains has rarely ever worked in the history of humanity.

 

 

 

 

Long, loud applause.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

19 minutes ago, zoony said:

The story of the 2016 election is and always will be that hillary was an awful candidate who didnt try.  Attempts to make it about a million other things is doing nothing but galvanizing the country and convincing folks that the dems truly are mentally ill, and are indeed trying to build a victim culture society.

Dude, you are ****ing out to lunch. The story of the 2016 election is that the biggest piece of **** in American political history won by taking advantage of the most easily fooled, brainwashed voter base in American political history by running a campaign of lies, hate, and racism. Oh, and with the help of Russians whose main play was to stoke the racist fires that fuel the GOP's voters.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

biggest piece of **** in American political history

And yet the Lefts annoited one STILL couldnt win.

 

The ones on the Left that cant admit Clinton sucked as a candidate (due to some things that werent even true) will be the same ones shocked by another loss in 2020.  

 

Hillary didnt do a good job campaigning.  Dont try to defend it.  Accept it, learn from it, and move on.

[DogofWar1]

I always remind myself, 77,000 votes across 3 states made the difference.

 

We should also remember this:

https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a20362

 

Time will tell if someone's or someones' fingers were illegally on the scale.  The jury is out (but the evidence so far doesn't look that good).

[ExoDus84]

49 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

Also the trash at CNN, Fox, MSNBC is who I think Michelle Wolf was (rightly) going after. They shouldn’t be lumped with the good journalism that is still being done by print and digital newspapers.

 

There are plenty of good reporters and reporting done by CNN and MSNBC. Leaning liberal aside, they are not "fake news." They might be a bit sensationalist in covering Trump ad-nausaum, but the content of what they are reporting isn't "fake". I'd prefer AP or Reuters over both, but I don't think anybody should be disingenuous and call them trash.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

26 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

And yet the Lefts annoited one STILL couldnt win.

That says a lot more about the GOP and it's base than it does about Hillary Clinton. And just so you know, I don't like Hillary Clinton and I don't care about Hillary Clinton. I don't care about donkeys and elephants so when you say "the left's annointed one couldn't win", that doesn't bother me.

 

But I'll say this, if Trump wins again in 2020 it won't be the fault of the Democrats. It'll be because our country is screwed... ****ed over by the GOP who continue to foster a culture of hate and fear based on racism, lies & fake scandals. Donald Trump is a GOP creation. Accept it, learn from it, and ****ing fix that ****.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[tshile]

2 hours ago, ExoDus84 said:

 

There are plenty of good reporters and reporting done by CNN and MSNBC. Leaning liberal aside, they are not "fake news." They might be a bit sensationalist in covering Trump ad-nausaum, but the content of what they are reporting isn't "fake". I'd prefer AP or Reuters over both, but I don't think anybody should be disingenuous and call them trash.

 

Cnn has gone to complete garbage. There is little to no journalistic quality in their website articles or their tv segments/shows. 

 

I like msnbc more as I find more intelligent discussion and format there, but they will always be dogged by their alligence to the left (even when they’re right, which they are quite often when I watch them right now, which isn’t a whole lot)

 

i like reuters and ap. Love npr, so long as I stay away from certain shows/hosts

 

Edited May 30, 2018 by tshile