Renegade7 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: And if it isn't real? Nothing good, nothing to joke about either. Nothing to do with Hillary. Edited May 31, 2018 by Renegade7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: @PeterMP 1. I agree to a point. But a leader is who motivates them to do this. 2. Yes but the Dems have not done a good job of dumbing it down to the level of Trump voters. The election results show this. 3. I'm not saying Hillary didn't admit mistakes. But she always had an excuse for them. And she also didn't admit many mistakes. She came across as fake when she did admit to them. 4. The expectation of a President is they could beat an enemy if needed. Hillary couldn't even beat Trump. I trust Obama could have beaten him. I think he was a great leader even if I didn't agree with all his positions. Many Trump voters have limited where they get their information to places that are deliberately dishonest. It isn't a matter of dumbing it down for them. They don't even believe what you are saying. They've divorced their vote from reality. How do I dumb down giving more money to the wealthy through tax cuts benefits primarily the wealthy more? Seriously, how can I dumb that down further? Democrats have said it a bunch of different ways different times for years. But you can go on right wing places and people will tell you that you're wrong. Okay, but Trump never admits any mistakes. Did she come across as fake because you were pre-conditioned to believe she was fake and dishonest (a crook)? In admitting a mistake is it really bad to explain why the mistake was made and what you learned? Obama didn't defeat Syria, North Korea, Russia, or China. And you can argue he's heavily responsible for much of the mess in Syria and and mess with Russia vis-a-vis the election. You aren't even making any sense. How can you say the President should be able to defeat anybody, hold Obama up as leader that could defeat anybody, while pointing to a bunch of countries Obama didn't defeat. Again, I'll say the likes of Trump, Limbaugh, and Hannity (and even Alex Jones) aren't stupid. They've been doing what they've been doing for a long time and made lots of money doing it. Edited May 31, 2018 by PeterMP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: See who has jokes if blue wave is real. Is that wave like that Blue Wall I heard about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) wrong thread Edited May 31, 2018 by Kilmer17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 1 minute ago, twa said: Is that wave like that Blue Wall I heard about? No. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, PeterMP said: Many Trump voters have limited where they get their information to places that are deliberately dishonest. It isn't a matter of dumbing it down for them. They don't even believe what you are saying. They've divorced their vote from reality. How do I dumb down giving more money to the wealthy through tax cuts benefits primarily the wealthy more? Seriously, how can I dumb that down further? Democrats have said it a bunch of different ways different times for years. But you can go on right wing places and people will tell you that you're wrong. I said earlier the Left needs to figure out how to problem solve. This is one they need to figure out. The GOP won't do it because they are winning. I can't answer this. But I don't need to. I'm not running for POTUS. 3 minutes ago, PeterMP said: Obama didn't defeat Syria, North Korea, Russia, or China. And you can argue he's heavily responsible for much of the mess in Syria and and mess with Russia vis-a-vis the election. You aren't even making any sense. How can you say the President should be able to defeat anybody, hold Obama up as leader that could defeat anybody, while pointing to a bunch of countries Obama didn't defeat. He inspired me that he could if it came to that. Point isn't who is the best military tactician. It is who is an inspirational leader. He was. Hillary wasn't. 4 minutes ago, PeterMP said: Again, I'll say the likes of Trump, Limbaugh, and Hannity (and even Alex Jones) aren't stupid. They've been doing what they've been doing for a long time and made lots of money doing it. So how does the Left combat it and do it better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: So how does the Left combat it and do it better? Not sinking to their level is a start, not about "doing better". We destroy our own credibility if we sink to same Fake News level as them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) Reaching Trump voters is going to be very hard if not impossible through traditional political processes/campaiging. They are not going to respond to rational arguments (most of us don't). techboy has posted here several times on the result of arguing with people that don't agree with you and them even just becoming more ingrained in their views. Here's part of the conversation: And he's posted similar stuff in other places too. It is going to take individual attention from people that they have other relationships and trust. I've written here before, one of the fundamental problems in the Republican party is that the belief that Reagan was a good President. That's a belief that Republicans are very invested in and so is going to be very difficult to give up. They are going to accept a lot of things before giving up that belief. And that then ties into the issue with the support of the trickle down economics. They can't believe trickle down economics isn't by and large good for the country because that means accepting that Reagan wasn't really a very good President (hard to argue he was a great President when his central economic idea was wrong). Edited May 31, 2018 by PeterMP 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Renegade7 said: Not sinking to their level is a start, not about "doing better". We destroy our own credibility if we sink to same Fake News level as them. I agree. But saying how to not fix a problem is not the same as saying how to fix a problem. The former is far less effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Just now, TheGreatBuzz said: I agree. But saying how to not fix a problem is not the same as saying how to fix a problem. The former is far less effective. Then you need to better phrase the problem. You're question came across as how to beat them at their own game, the answer is to not play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: So how does the Left combat it and do it better? See my above post. I don't think you can at an institutional level. Everybody needs to check themselves (more personal responsibility) and we need to have personal relationships where we can check other people. (I think the decline in social capital in our society is part of the issue, but I don't know how you correct for that without a massive over all of society. https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2013/09/02/217287028/amish-community-not-anti-technology-just-more-thoughful I saw a more recent article talking about how the Amish essentially use the rest of us as a test of technology before deciding whether to accept or reject it. The above is older and doesn't quite touch on the same themes, but some of the same ideas are relevant.) The left doesn't need to do these things. If WE don't fix these things, this country is in big trouble and not just the left. To simply lay the problem at the feet of some people is doing all of us, including you, a disservice. Edited May 31, 2018 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, PeterMP said: Reaching Trump voters is going to be very hard if not impossible through traditional political processes/campaiging. If it were easy, they would let any idiot do it. (irony intended) 3 minutes ago, PeterMP said: It is going to take individual attention from people that they have other relationships and trust. I've written here before, one of the fundamental problems in the Republican party is that the belief that Reagan was a good President. That's a belief that Republicans are very invested in and so is going to be very difficult to give up. They are going to accept a lot of things before giving up that belief. And that then ties into the issue with the support of the trickle down economics. They can't believe trickle down economics isn't by and large good for the country because that means accepting that Reagan wasn't really a very good President (hard to argue he was a great President when his central economic idea was wrong). I believe Reagan was a decent president. That doesn't mean he was without flaws. I think a big problem now is if you support a person/party/whatever that means you can't admit any of their flaws. That is wrong. Again, how does the left fix this. It is clear we can't rely on the Right to do it. So Left, what is your grand plan? If there isn't a good one, I ( the proverbial I) will just continue to support the one that gives us wealthy more money and lets us have big guns. (emphasis that this isn't "me", but the view of the Right). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 5 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Then you need to better phrase the problem. You're question came across as how to beat them at their own game, the answer is to not play it. Sorry. How does the Left overcome the idiocy that is the Right? Is that better? 3 minutes ago, PeterMP said: See my above post. I don't think you can at an institutional level. Everybody needs to check themselves (more personal responsibility) and we need to have personal relationships where we can check other people. The left doesn't need to do these things. If WE don't fix these things, this country is in big trouble and not just the left. To simply lay the problem at the feet of some people is doing all of us, including you, a disservice. Top the top line: But how? It is clear the Right won't. Either the Left is the party that can save us all (and they like to act like they are) or we accept that we will quickly sink to the bottom. I hope the Left can. But I won't vote for tag lines. I want real plans. And with out me, the Left isn't going to win. bottom line: The Left does. I think it is clear the Right won't. So how? I don't know but I'm not in a position where I am expected to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said: So what are you (the proverbial you) going to do to get me? And what do you want me to do? Argue away. That's why we are here. Meet you half way. I think most of your views are more than fair. It's the details that get us. But the details shouldn't get us to 'Donald Trump is the dems fault cause they dont understand me and my racism' territory. I dont wanna argue it. At this point i think arguing for the sake of arguing is a waste of our time when I know we are that close to agreeing. Edited May 31, 2018 by Llevron 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 @Llevron Don't know why that had 3 of the same posts. Anyways, my point wasn't that Trump was totally the fault of the Left. Only that it was a decent portion. That is why I said he was the fault of the Dems, the GOP, and all Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Just now, TheGreatBuzz said: Sorry. How does the Left overcome the idiocy that is the Right? Is that better? The entire right is not full of idiots, but the point of the article is Dems need just give up on Trump's base, focus on not seeming crazy to moderates, Trump's base is motivated by something that we can't "fix". When we get power we need to not act like idiots ourselves. Right now everything we want to do that come across as bipartisain we're being blocked on just to keep us from looking like we can get anything done, like DACA and gun legislation. It's hard not to look at most of the elections since 2016 and all the retirements and believe Dems won't take a chunk out of both chambers. It's like clockwork with most every unpopular incumbent president who's part has control of congress, not wishful thinking. Right now the political rage against Trump and his base is looking like fuel on its own to overcome the stranglehold GOP has on Congress, we just gotta stop our candidates from saying anything stupid. Some are winning by just focusing on local issues, Trump is so toxic they don't need to waste their limited resources even talking about him (campaigning on "I'm not Trump" didn't work, anyone that tries that again is doomed to fail). If we don't take it seriously or get in there and waste it, that's our fault, no way to sugar coat it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: Sorry. How does the Left overcome the idiocy that is the Right? Is that better? Top the top line: But how? It is clear the Right won't. Either the Left is the party that can save us all (and they like to act like they are) or we accept that we will quickly sink to the bottom. I hope the Left can. But I won't vote for tag lines. I want real plans. And with out me, the Left isn't going to win. bottom line: The Left does. I think it is clear the Right won't. So how? I don't know but I'm not in a position where I am expected to know. Again, they can't. Everybody has to step and accept responsibility to check themselves and not fall into intellectual traps and lazy thing. And not just themselves, but other people they are close to and have personal relationships with. And you see that in this thread even with you. Look at your comment about the left and they like to act like they are. You've grabbed onto an idea that the left has some extra superiority built into it, which isn't true. The vast majority of people in this thread (and even pundits on the left) are telling you they don't know how to reach the Trump voter and over come the effects of decades of right wing "media" (and save us). Their best idea is to ignore to the Trump voter, go further to the left to appeal to their base, and hope to drive Democratic turn out. Their is nobody that is claiming to have a way to save us. You (most likely) are going to have a fundamental choice in the next election. Most likely, you can vote for an America that represents a some what honest effort for civil and ethical government with respect to our own government and citizens and the other "democracies" around the globe or not. You might not like many of the ideas, "tags", the problems they chose to focus on, or solutions of the left, but fundamentally in reality, your (most likely) choices are a some what honest effort for a civil and ethical government or not. Now, hopefully, I don't have to explain why a government that is making a somewhat honest effort to be civil and ethical is an advantage to you. (Now, I fully expect you to ignore the above, not accept it, or not actually assimilate it and be back pushing the same themes in 2 days because you and I don't have a personal relationship and trust that is actually going to allow me to change your mind.) Edited May 31, 2018 by PeterMP 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 53 minutes ago, tshile said: I dismissed myself because you’ve become a complete asshole in political threads. You come in here’s telling people to shut the **** up because they don’t agree with you. You’ve been trending this way for a while. You’ve become emotional in your bubble. I'm a complete asshole in general. My first post in the tailgate was basically calling Kilmer a racist. I tend to change my opinion when given reason to, though (sorry Kilmer). This didnt just start. Your sensitivity to it is not really my problem. Didnt you say just a few days ago that someone in here is calling everyone on your side of an argument, including you, a racist? I'm sure that wasnt derived anyway from emotion right? Duck outta here lol And I'm telling people to shut the **** up JUST CAUSE they dont agree with me now? I dont think you can find that quote. Seems like more emotional ranting to me. Prove me wrong though. Whats funny is if that's all it takes for you to be so offended I'm suprised you didnt vote for Hillary just to be sure a guy like me (emotional, asshole politically) wouldn't make it to the top office in the land. But you didnt. And that's why I think you should continue to dismiss yourself. Not because you dont agree with me. I dont care about that at all honestly. EDIT: And you stay putting me in a bubble lol. Edited May 31, 2018 by Llevron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Its three pages back can’t remember what you wrote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 23 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: @Llevron Don't know why that had 3 of the same posts. Anyways, my point wasn't that Trump was totally the fault of the Left. Only that it was a decent portion. That is why I said he was the fault of the Dems, the GOP, and all Americans. I'm hip. On that we agree. Dems have loads of culpability here. Your views and those similar to yours didnt just come from no place. And if they really wanted to win they wouldn't have just ignored you. I totally get that. Which is why I should have just agreed with you if I'm being honest. I dont know why it posted 3 times either. 5 hours ago, Llevron said: Didnt a few of yall saying its the dems fault vote for the 3rd party? Please shut the **** up if so. Honestly, you yourself hurt us more than any dem. Including Hilldog. All you had to do was the right thing and you couldn't even do that. You have zero room to point fingers. Come on son you already know I'm petty enough to go here with you lol. Where does it say that you should shut the **** up cause I disagree with you? @tshile I know your reading comprehension is better that that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 5 hours ago, Llevron said: Didnt a few of yall saying its the dems fault vote for the 3rd party? Please shut the **** up if so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 9 minutes ago, Llevron said: I'm a complete asshole in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, tshile said: Right ok so break that down for us lol Cause I'm still missing the "agree with me or STFU part" 6 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: You can be next lol (kidding) Edited May 31, 2018 by Llevron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 No one wants to read this nonsense. Its taking away from a good conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, tshile said: No one wants to read this nonsense. Its taking away from a good conversation. Just show me where I said if you disagree with me shut the **** up. Just like I asked you who called you a racist for disagreeing with them. Give me the proof, of either honestly. Or stop posting that bull****. Edited May 31, 2018 by Llevron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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