Kilmer17 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 What exactly should the "GOP" or specific Senators do to prevent fascism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: . I dont believe in any way shape or form that Trump is a fascist or that the GOP is the reincarnation of the Nazi party. SO I dont plan on doing anything to stop them outside of continuing to vote based on real issues You don’t believe it because you like the GOP’s policy goals even if they come with a heaping dose of everything fascist: racism, bigotry, scapegoating of minorities, attacks on the free press, attacks on free speech, extreme military worship, etc. We know from poll after poll that conservatives are happy with Trump and the GOP despite the fact that our institutions are being stress tested every day by authoritarianism. In fact, numerous studies have repeatedly shown that the average GOP voter is in fact desiring an authoritarian right wing government. So it’s not like I’m pulling this out of my ass. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 15 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: If fascism wins, those who claim now that they knew it will have themselves to blame for doing nothing. its not inevitable... and our institutions are stronger, and better equipped to defend our system of government than the war, depression, and punitive "peace conditions" ravaged inter-war german institutions were.... there is certainly no 1-to-1 mapping of 2018 USA to 1932 Germany ... and people ARE resisting (only a fool thinks that throwing molotov ****tails is the only way to resist).... there is no inevitable descent into fascism, but not for a lack of Trump trying. there still IS a person in the Presidency that would trample every right he could (if there were not protections against it) and there are people that are propping up that dickhead, and supporting his erosion of those protections... that is not hyperbole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 1 minute ago, mcsluggo said: there still IS a person in the Presidency that would trample every right he could (if there were not protections against it) and there are people that are propping up that dickhead, and supporting his erosion of those protections... that is not hyperbole. Yes it is. That is the actual definition of hyperbole. Unless you can prove that Trump would trample EVERY RIGHT. 4 minutes ago, No Excuses said: You don’t believe it because you like the GOP’s policy goals even if they come with a heaping dose of everything fascist: racism, bigotry, scapegoating of minorities, attacks on the free press, attacks on free speech, extreme military worship, etc. We know from poll after poll that conservatives are happy with Trump and the GOP despite the fact that our institutions are being stress tested every day by authoritarianism. In fact, numerous studies have repeatedly shown that the average GOP voter is in fact desiring an authoritarian right wing government. So it’s not like I’m pulling this out of my ass. I think that's lunacy. Trump is a moron. He's a disgusting person and a terrible leader. He's also just a blowhard egomaniac. But a fascist? or Authoritarian? no. Not in anyone's worst dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Just now, Kilmer17 said: Yes it is. That is the actual definition of hyperbole. Unless you can prove that Trump would trample EVERY RIGHT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: What exactly should the "GOP" or specific Senators do to prevent fascism? Not bending over for every single Trump lie would be a start. Debunk his nonsense conspiracies that are ripping apart public trust instead of shamelessly showing up on conservative media to double down. Heres a few starters: 1. 3-5 million people never voted illegally 2. The Russia investigation is not a witch hunt 3. Barrack Obama did not wiretap Trump’s phoneline 4. There was no FISA abuse 5. “Spy gate” is nonsense 6. There is no “deep state” initiating a coup These are a handful of nonsense conspiracies that GOP and conservative media have failed to consistently challenge in public. We know Trump’s rhetoric does real public damage. Examples: 1. The noticeable spike in hate crime against minorities around the country, particularly against Muslims. 2. Something like 80% of the GOP voter base believes Trump’s nonsense claim of millions of illegal immigrants voting. Destroying public trust in institutions, scapegoating minorities and creating a completely alternate reality devoid of commonly shared facts is textbook fascism. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: What exactly should the "GOP" or specific Senators do to prevent fascism? Exert their constitutionally given power to check an executive that seeks to gather more and more power. But they could start by not feigning ignorance when asked whether the President has the power to pardon himself despite the fact that he literally wrote a freaking law review paper on the subject in 2012 TED! 9 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: I think that's lunacy. Trump is a moron. He's a disgusting person and a terrible leader. He's also just a blowhard egomaniac. But a fascist? or Authoritarian? no. Not in anyone's worst dream. Just wondering, would claiming the power to pardon oneself constitute authoritarian/fascist activity? Because I'm pretty sure declaring your office above the law is authoritarian/fascist. Like forget Presidents not being able to be prosecuted until they leave office, this would mean Presidents could not be prosecuted ever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 (edited) Ya'll like pretty pictures? I like pretty pictures. He's totally following a playbook that has tried and true ways to counter. Edit: there is volume, just unmute it. Edited June 5, 2018 by Renegade7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said: Exert their constitutionally given power to check an executive that seeks to gather more and more power. But they could start by not feigning ignorance when asked whether the President has the power to pardon himself despite the fact that he literally wrote a freaking law review paper on the subject in 2012 TED! Just wondering, would claiming the power to pardon oneself constitute authoritarian/fascist activity? Because I'm pretty sure declaring your office above the law is authoritarian/fascist. Like forget Presidents not being able to be prosecuted until they leave office, this would mean Presidents could not be prosecuted ever. No. Claiming it would not. Actually DOING IT would. Most of the outrage regarding Trump is about what he says, rather than what he does (which is where I actually have the most problems). And the outrage for the GOP en masse is that they dont respond to every lunacy that comes out. Edited June 5, 2018 by Kilmer17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 36 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: If fascism wins, those who claim now that they knew it will have themselves to blame for doing nothing. If Trump wins, Trump supporters will blame Hillary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Just now, Larry said: If Trump wins, Trump supporters will blame Hillary. If Trump wins because the Dems nominate Hillary (or someone with the same electability issues) then absolutely the blame will lie with Hillary (or person x) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Ultimately, the GOP and Trump’s damage to this country till now is the reduction of factual truths to mere opinions. This is a recipe for disaster for any democracy and it is a hallmark of how authoritarians assume power. Donald Trump has already happened in democracies like Poland, Hungary and Turkey. He isn’t anything new in modern political history. The only difference is that our system so far has shown a resilience that those countries didn’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Just now, No Excuses said: Ultimately, the GOP and Trump’s damage to this country till now is the reduction of factual truths to mere opinions. This is a recipe for disaster for any democracy and it is a hallmark of how authoritarians assume power. Donald Trump has already happened in democracies like Poland, Hungary and Turkey. He isn’t anything new in modern political history. The only difference is that our system so far has shown a resilience that those countries didn’t. That reduction has been happening since before Nixon. Reagan lied, Clinton lied, W lied, And their supporters found ways to justify it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: No. Claiming it would not. Actually DOING IT would. Most of the outrage regarding Trump is about what he says, rather than what he does (which is where I actually have the most problems). And the outrage for the GOP en masse is that they dont respond to every lunacy that comes out. So if we think its fascist we should commit violence to stop it but its not fascist because its only words but if he did do it it would be fascist but then if he does it its too late and its our fault for not doing anything to stop the fascism that wasn't fascism until it suddenly was fascism. So basically, Trump will never be fascist until he is and then it will be the fault of the left if he is. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 (edited) The GOP needs to stop making excuses for knowingly voting for a bigoted sociopath. Edit..or maybe they don't care they elected a POS candidate...cause yay party. Edited June 5, 2018 by The Evil Genius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: That reduction has been happening since before Nixon. Reagan lied, Clinton lied, W lied, And their supporters found ways to justify it. so... if i can summarize, your argument lies on 2 fronts: 1) Trump is too inept to actually succeed at following through on any of his fascist impulses and 2) everyone else does it too... so why fret over trump does that adequately encapsulate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, No Excuses said: Ultimately, the GOP and Trump’s damage to this country till now is the reduction of factual truths to mere opinions. This is a recipe for disaster for any democracy and it is a hallmark of how authoritarians assume power. Donald Trump has already happened in democracies like Poland, Hungary and Turkey. He isn’t anything new in modern political history. The only difference is that our system so far has shown a resilience that those countries didn’t. The fact we're even having to have this conversation just shows how many people in this country have no idea what's going on in other countries. It's like this is brand new to us so people expect a different outcome if we continue this route. Sorry, no, no it won't, this is textbook, but not in our textbooks. Edited June 5, 2018 by Renegade7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Just now, Kilmer17 said: That reduction has been happening since before Nixon. Reagan lied, Clinton lied, W lied, And their supporters found ways to justify it. None of those Presidents attacked commonly shared institutions that our society relies on the way Trump does. please do not even bother arguing this because we have poll after poll showing the huge shifts in public opinion amongst R voters after every bat**** Trump conspiracy. It is a complete misrepresentation of our current reality by drawing false equivalencies between this lunatic and our past leaders. Cut the bull**** and get real. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 8 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: That reduction has been happening since before Nixon. Reagan lied, Clinton lied, W lied, And their supporters found ways to justify it. Please watch the video I posted and get back to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 (edited) Obviously the overt hate in this country that is being egged on by the president will result in nothing but flowers and sunshine. Everyone is just going to take a deep breath and settle down. Humans always do. the spike in hate crimes and terrorist activity is to be ignored. it's just boys bein' boys. See, it's like so. We keep taking steps in that direction. And we keep pretending we're not. As i am sure there were plenty of people sounding alarms in the past, i am sure there were plenty who laughed and told them the sky wouldn't fall. It might not. And if it does, we may not see it for what it is because we're looking for comparisons to something we've seen. Totalitarians and authoritarians and fascists go hand in hand... and regardless of which name they put on it, it's all the same. the ONLY person who knows Donald Trump who believed he'd be a good President is Donald Trump. Practically every other person who ever dealt with him crawled out of the woodwork for a solid year to warn us who he is and what he is. But none of these gigantic waving red flags that are turning out to be completely true will result in any damage. hell, i recall a guy who sat on this very board nearly two years ago and got stoned on a friday afternoon and wrote a big long post about how this guy was in bed with the Russians. and, frankly, he ain't too bright to begin with, and HE figured it out. And it looks like he's going to say "I TOLDYA" a lot before it's done. ~Bang Edited June 5, 2018 by Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Just now, mcsluggo said: so... if i can summarize, your argument lies on 2 fronts: 1) Trump is too inept to actually succeed at following through on any of his fascist impulses and 2) everyone else does it too... so why fret over trump does that adequately encapsulate? No. In fact it exemplifies the problems that the left has trying to "beat" Trump. Trump isnt inept. He plays the left like a fiddle. He doesnt have fascist impulses. But as long as he can make you guys think he does and get hysterical about it, he keeps his support and enacts actual policies etc that he wants. The second piece is a constant. It's the absolute refusal to acknowledge the past political shenanigans of the Dems. And as such, makes it too easy for people wavering on the GOP to leave for the Dems. 4 minutes ago, No Excuses said: None of those Presidents attacked commonly shared institutions that our society relies on the way Trump does. please do not even bother arguing this because we have poll after poll showing the huge shifts in public opinion amongst R voters after every bat**** Trump conspiracy. It is a complete misrepresentation of our current reality by drawing false equivalencies between this lunatic and our past leaders. Cut the bull**** and get real. Ever think that those poll numbers skew that way because right wingers know answering that way will drive you folks even crazier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 8 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: The GOP needs to stop making excuses for knowingly voting for a bigoted sociopath. Edit..or maybe they don't care they elected a POS candidate...cause yay party. More like "hey look, he stopped his motorcade to shake hands with fire, ems, and police on the side of the road. He's a class act and you'll never see CNN report this stuff." That's what I see from my Mom's (a baby boomer) Facebook feed a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Kilmer can you please share with us the GOP memo where the "pretend to be fascist to upset the libs, but not actually plan to do it" plan is set forth? Because you seem really confident that Trump wouldn't try to pardon himself despite the fact he claimed the power while referencing an investigation into himself, which, I mean, kind of looks like something someone considering using said pardon power would say but you seem really confident he's not actually considering it which is great but I'd like something more than "nah he won't." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: Trump isnt inept. He plays the left like a fiddle. This is a man under investigation for conspiring against the country for which he is President and he spends most of his time complaining about it. The fact that he’s inept is one of the few reasons his authoritarian tendencies have not been fully successful. If he was even remotely competent, the GOP would be crushing the liberals on major policy issues. All we’ve got is judges, for which he gets no credit, an unpopular tax plan that the GOP isn’t even campaigning on but a truck load of culture wars. The number campaign issue for GOP candidates since Trump’s election is scapegoating immigrants, which at least in Virginia, Alabama and Pennsylvania was a massive failure. 9 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: Ever think that those poll numbers skew that way because right wingers know answering that way will drive you folks even crazier? I’m not going to sit here and explain to you statistics, polling and sample sizes. If you want to be this dense, do it with someone else. The GOP is full of conspiratorial nutjobs. Sorry you have a tough time coming to terms with this . Edited June 5, 2018 by No Excuses 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 He's playing them right into an impeachment. He's clearly brilliant. ~Bong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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