Miami Herald: I’m done trying to understand Trump supporters. Why don’t they try to understand me?

[Renegade7]

27 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

He is a major anamoly in an otherwise sea of spineless ****s. 

How's Jon Huntsman, Jr, doing these days?  I had no idea he was ambassador to Russia now.  That's a ticket I would listen to hear what they have to say.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

2 hours ago, Kilmer17 said:

I dont believe in any way shape or form that Trump is a fascist

You don’t? Can I ask why not? He checks all of the boxes.

[Kilmer17]

15 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

You don’t? Can I ask why not? He checks all of the boxes.

 

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and control of industry and commerce, which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

 

He checks none of those. 

[Larry]

33 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

You don’t? Can I ask why not? He checks all of the boxes.

 

He absolutely is moving the country in that direction. 

 

But the fact that Richmond is west of Norfolk does not make it San Francisco. 

 

Now, though, having said that?  

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing out that he's moving things in that direction. 

 

If someone comes along who is repeating Hitler's footsteps, you are not morally required to wait until he has killed two million Jews, before you are allowed to point it out. 

 

Kilmer pointing out that Trump has not ordered the jailing of unfavorable reporters does not mean that one cannot point out that he may be ordering DOJ to block a corporate merger simply because the company owns the Washington Post, and the Post has printed several facts that he didn't want printed. His pointing out that Trump is not, right now, as bad as Musolini was, at his worst, is simply an attempt to block people from pointing out similarities . 

[88Comrade2000]

Damn.  This thread sure has been busy today.

 

Trump is an idiot. The only thing he cares about is enriching himself.  That's the only reason he ran.  Every policy decision he makes, is made to how it effects him personally or his business or family.

 

Trump doesn't have that many core beliefs.  He could care less about judges, social issues, etc...  He does knows his base does; so he lets them do what they want there.  His daily ****show distracts everyone from really paying attention to that.   So, of course, the GOP loves him.  He's giving them what they want.

 

We knew he hates immigrants/minorities, always has.  He has a long history of that.   The guy is a protectionist when it comes to trade, always has been. Problem for Dems there since many Dems favor protectionism.

 

Donald Trump is only president of that base that voted for him.

 

He is an outright facist? Not yet, but I have no doubt he will do everything he can to get there.

 

He's already planning to circumvent anything the Mueller investigation finds.   All those charged, will be pardoned by him.  The Gop won't do anything.  He's said he will pardon himself.  The GOP will do nothing.  The gOP will do everything they can, to ensure Donald and they stay in power.

 

Watch this fall and in 2020; how Trump and the GOP will make it hard for people who don't support Trump vote.  Trump and the GOP will challenge the legitimacy of any election that doesn't go their way.    Trump already has designs to stay in power beyond 2024.  If he get reelected and the GOP has control of congress and most the states; they will try to make it so, Trump can stay in power.

 

I could see Trump cancel the 2024 election and say, he wlll be President for life.  Declare martial law.  The gOP will be complaint.

 

Crazy.  I think we've seen to enough from Trump to know, that if he really wants to stay in power for life; he will attempt it.

 

So, when it comes to understanding one side or another; we can see what's happening and see the direction things are heading. 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Rdskns2000

[Larry]

16 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Crazy.  I think we've seen to enough from Trump to know, that if he really wants to stay in power for life; he will attempt it.

 

Oh, I could easily see him fantasizing about it.  Openly speculating on various options.  

 

But I will point out that it does look like maybe it has soaked into his head that, for example, firing the head of the FBI a second time isn't something he can safely do.  

 

It obviously burns him, that he can't.  The frustration of wanting to do that so badly, and having to hold back, is, frankly, causing him to be more irrational than usual.  (At least, I assume it is.)  He may make late night phone calls to Hannity, to vent about how much he wants to.  He may envy his buddy Putin, because Putin is a real President, who actually can do that.  

 

He probably has not completely given up on the idea.  

 

But, he hasn't.  

 

Apparently, he is capable of some control.  Sometimes.  After doing something wrong once, and getting caught at it.  

 

[Bang]

2 hours ago, Kilmer17 said:

You really think the Dems can win in the fall and have the votes to impeach in the House knowing they wont have the votes to convict?  

 

They're that politically stupid?

I don't think politics as usual should be a precursor to justice.

I know, that is idealism on acid.

 

But, if it turns out he indeed did collude with russia and all of those pay for play accusations and all of the underhanded dirty selling out turns out to be true, then again while my idealism is on high, ther should be no one who should vote otherwise. 

Criminal is criminal and treason / obstruction / whatever it ends up as, should not be protected.

As i said,, i don't know how to go with this as it unfolds. Nixon was a crook, but it was dirty American politics,, no foreign involvement, no real insidious desire to sell everyone out, fatten up your friends and bleed everything else dry. Nixon was classic paranoid and wanted to keep his presidency, so he paid for information via break in. Criminal, impeachable, convictable...   but not like this.

i know i sound like a pissed off guy just blowing my stack all the time anymore, but if that SOB sold us out to the Russians and conspired to let those ****ers manipulate our election..  put him up on a post and shoot his ass as a traitor. No hyperbole. 

 

Unfortunately, i have no faith that enough of our "leaders" will put justice and country above party and personal gain.

 

So we'll see.

 

~Bang

[Bang]

1 hour ago, Kilmer17 said:

 

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and control of industry and commerce, which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

 

He checks none of those. 

You're kidding.

His entire campaign was a chant of "lock her up". The convention was a mob scene every time th chant began. Was it Flynn who was raving on television about hanging her on the national mall, or was it one of his other toads?

He has started trade wars, he has attacked private companies that oppose him and even more egregious, compete with his businesses. He's more interested in enriching his his own wealth than establishing any state run industries. His idea of that sort of control is furthering the gap between his elite people and all the rest of us. So long as there are enough of us down here to do his dirty work and look the other way on their principles to keep him up there, and there are.

He has said twice publicly that he thinks the possibility of him being president for more than two terms .. or for life.. would be a good thing.

 

He has attacked every single agency that delivers intelligence to this country. What's worse, he ignores them, and follows the lead of the Soviet strongman who has established himself as the supreme oligarch.

He screams FAKE NEWS at every single media outlet except the one's he has chosen to be his. He rages daily that they are lying, all while they are disassembling his lies from the day before.

He has mused in campaign rallies that maybe there is a 'second amendment solution" to his media problem..  or it may even been a solution to his political opponent, i can't recall which, but does it matter if i remember which one? He said it, and regardless of whichever one it was..  pretty close to one of those boxes.

 Every single rally has the "turn around and rage at the media" session that is extremely popular among the faithful. People bring their KIDS to rage at the media. Media and reporters are threatened all the time. What is that except attempts to intimidate, suppress and silence? He encourages them, and accepts no responsibility for any of the threats, any of the rage he fosters with his daily lies.

He has suggested again and again that maybe he should remove the credentials of media he doesn't like. 

He has gaslit everything his administration has done. His followers wouldn't know the truth if it bit them, he is constantly changing it. 

His party backs every bit of it. His staff participates in the gaslight day and night, constantly changing the stories.

And he failed utterly to condemn actual Nazis who killed a woman in the streets of the United States. But he's all over those uppity Americans for taking a knee. Gotta have that powerful symbolism to keep the rabble focused.

 

he has screamed "voter fraud" again and again. This purpose is obvious, to cast doubt among his followers on all results not positive to him. 

 

He's only a year in. He's dancing all around those boxes. Pretending he isn't is sincerely short sighted.

 

~Bang
 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Bang

[tshile]

7 hours ago, Bang said:

Citizens..  brainwashed from propaganda, convinced that 'someone else' was responsible for all their problems.

This is most of the country it seems. 

[Larry]

3 hours ago, Kilmer17 said:

You really think the Dems can win in the fall and have the votes to impeach in the House knowing they wont have the votes to convict?  

 

They're that politically stupid?

 

You really think that the Dems are scared of the thought that the Republicans in the Senate will vote to acquit Trump, despite overwhelming evidence, simply because of Party?  

 

If I'm a Dem in the House, I probably want that result over a conviction.  

 

[Kilmer17]

None of which meets the definition stated.  

 

Words matter.   And condemnation for them is appropriate.  But claiming words are “forceable suppression”.  Or that intimidation and threats are “control of industry and commerce” is hysterical, and I don’t mean funny. 

 

To the OP point.  Claiming Trump is a fascist tells his supporters you think they are nazis.  And you can imagine what their response to that will be 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

You really think that the Dems are scared of the thought that the Republicans in the Senate will vote to acquit Trump, despite overwhelming evidence, simply because of Party?  

 

If I'm a Dem in the House, I probably want that result over a conviction.  

 

And their GOP opponents in 18 and again in 20 will eviscerate them with that.  

 

See Clinton impeachment for reference. 

[No Excuses]

4 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

And their GOP opponents in 18 and again in 20 will eviscerate them with that.  

 

See Clinton impeachment for reference. 

 

The country is much more polarized since then. And most of the country absolutely hates Trump and his approval numbers are abysmal compared to past Presidents, GOP or Democrat. He is the first sitting president to have over 50% of the country "moderately" and "strongly" disapprove of him in the first two years.

 

Plus, it's not like he came into office with a hugely popular mandate. A majority voted against him and the GOP is getting absolutely trashed in elections since he assumed office.

[Kilmer17]

6 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

The country is much more polarized since then. And most of the country absolutely hates Trump and his approval numbers are abysmal compared to past Presidents, GOP or Democrat. He is the first sitting president to have over 50% of the country "moderately" and "strongly" disapprove of him in the first two years.

 

Plus, it's not like he came into office with a hugely popular mandate. A majority voted against him and the GOP is getting absolutely trashed in elections since he assumed office.

I think the majority hates him.  But loathes the idea of Congress (who they still hate too) impeaching him

[No Excuses]

1 minute ago, Kilmer17 said:

I think the majority hates him.  But loathes the idea of Congress (who they still hate too) impeaching him

 

This is a stretch and I would be shocked to find a voter who hates Trump but is sympathetic to him if impeachment is on the table. I think most of the country outside the GOP base won't give a **** about what happens to him.

[Kilmer17]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/4/30/17291016/democrats-impeachment-midterms

 

 

 

 

only 38 percent of people favor impeachment. Now that doesn’t mean that 62 percent oppose it.  But it shows that there is a disconnect between trump numbers and impeachment support. 

 

I think it will be seen as partisan bs. 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Kilmer17

[No Excuses]

7 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/4/30/17291016/democrats-impeachment-midterms

 

 

 

 

only 38 percent of people favor impeachment. Now that doesn’t mean that 62 percent oppose it.  But it shows that there is a disconnect between trump numbers and impeachment support. 

 

I think it will be seen as partisan bs. 

 

There has to be a reason to impeach, which doesn't really exist yet so this number isn't shocking.

 

Getting it over or near the 50% mark will require the Mueller investigation finding serious crimes of conspiracy and collusion for his 2016 campaign.

[tshile]

30 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

hysterical, and I don’t mean funny. 

 

I agree. 

 

My ultimate fear is that the dems do the same thing with trump that the gop has done with other issues in the past - overplay their hand to the extent they lose the support they need to do what I think needs to be done. 

 

I dont think they will, but I have concern they will. 

[bearrock]

It would also depend on what he's being impeached for and the evidence supporting it.  Depending on the seriousness of the charge (and evidence to back it up), comparison to Clinton could be apples and oranges.  All in all, my preference would be no impeachment in the absence of overwhelming evidence of grave wrongdoing.  Otherwise, we may be slowly heading down the road of impeachment as a partisan political tool.

[Renegade7]

2 hours ago, Kilmer17 said:

 

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and control of industry and commerce, which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

 

He checks none of those. 

Ah, so until he gets it all in place, nothing he's doing to take us there counts.  You didn't watch the video because you're convinced your right, but you arent.

 

I'm going to oceanfront for a walk, some of yall could use a breather, life is short.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Renegade7

[tshile]

13 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

Getting it over or near the 50% mark will require the Mueller investigation finding serious crimes of conspiracy and collusion for his 2016 campaign.

 

what qualifies serious here to you?

 

I ask because I can’t quite figure out where the line will be drawn when the context was fighting the Clinton political machine for the presidency (after 8 years of obama)

 

the people on the right are convinced obama was terrible for this country, and that if Clinton won she would get two terms and basically continue the obama era policies for another 8 years. They were and are very against this. 

 

When we start talking about big time support for impeachment... I think you may be being a bit optimistic... I’m not sure. 

[Kilmer17]

11 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Ah, so until he gets it all in place, nothing he's doing to take us there counts.  You didn't watch the video because you're convinced your right, but you arent.

 

I'm going to oceanfront for a walk, some of yall could use a breather, life is short.

I did watch it.  It’s more lunacy.  It’s the type of hive think that’s hurting our discourse 

[Renegade7]

3 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

I did watch it.  It’s more lunacy.  It’s the type of hive think that’s hurting our discourse 

You're so convinced that you're right that you don't even know what your wrong about. 

 

You also sound so used to Trump being president, you've forgotten how abnormal he is.  Lunacy is saying other presidents have lied when this guy is saying everyone that doesn't agree with him is lying, like they are the same thing. 

 

I'm starting to think you don't care if you're wrong, doesn't affect you,  and that's why your treating this like political theater.  Many of us don't have that luxury, I do not have the complextion for the protection.

[Bang]

Whew!

so long as Webster's says it isn't, good enough.

 

Mincing words. Words matter, but actions matter more. i suppose means we have to name it something new.  Whatever anyone wants to call it, authoritarianism, Trumpism, Fascismish, Fasco-Eltism, the path is disturbingly similar.

 

~Bang

Edited June 6, 2018 by Bang

[DogofWar1]

2 hours ago, Kilmer17 said:

 

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and control of industry and commerce, which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

 

He checks none of those. 

He has literally done, attempted, or voiced a desire to engage in all of those.

 

But, I mean, I guess you think he's playing 13 dimensional chess.

[Kilmer17]

Really?  What force has he used to suppress the opposition?   What industry has he grabbed control of?   

 

Sorry folks.  You’re overreacting.  And in doing so are damaging your own credibility and ability to convince folks you have a solution.