2018 Draft Day Thread

[nonniey]

2 minutes ago, bakedtater1 said:

So I figured because everyone is here today, glad to see Whitten retiring..

He should have waited until after the draft was completed before letting the Cowboys know he was retiring.

[skinny21]

18 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

I agree with most of this. Although I would be OK with Chubb at 44. I would prefer Jones if he is there as well. But Chubb will give them the thumper they are looking for. 

A thumper with some speed too (same as Guice).  I’m not at all sold on Jones as a fit for us.  He was my 3rd favorite back, but I question how he was used, how successful he was between the tackles and in different personnel packages.  

 

There are a few guys I’d select regardless, but trading down for a 5th, say, means we can take advantage of the depth at corner and TE (maybe another Dlineman), but also package picks to move up to the 4th or 3rd.  

 

 

[Cooleyfan1993]

Just now, nonniey said:

He should have waited until after the draft was completed before letting the Cowboys know he was retiring.

agreed. actually, probably would have been better to let them know in the early part of the offseason so they have a chance to find his replacement. 

 

maybe trade reed to dallas for a couple draft picks?  

[Riggo#44]

24 minutes ago, Dissident2 said:

Really disappointed that I won't be able to start referring to Vita Vea as "Vita Vea Vegamin." 

 

Apologies if you're too young to get that reference.

 

We do, however, get to use this one

2 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

maybe trade reed to dallas for a couple draft picks?  

 

So he can get healthy, remain that way, and run circles around us?

[Skinsinparadise]

44 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

I do wonder about your measurement for "big move" though.

 

We've debated about this front office on a gazillion things.  I've made tons of points in that process as to how I approach the draft, FA, how one size doesn't fit all.   And I wouldn't summarize my take as "make a big move" and I am happy.  What you are referring to is my take on FA which is address your more glaring needs so you don't play the draft like they did yesterday.   And I think Bruce is misrepresented when people say he's not willing to spend.  The dude does spend but he likes doing the equivalent of purchasing 6 fast foot meals instead of buying 2 fancy dinners at the same price.  Either way they are spending the same amount.  His way is about mitigating risk.  My thought is to take a chance on higher end talent -- that's where the "big move' comes in.  But my brush for an off season isn't about big moves.  It's all driven by context.  

 

44 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I think I rememeber you saying you'd give them a D, but with Hankins it'd be a B (somewhere in that realm). My opinion has been that we've been good at winning the offseason most of last decade, so I've been happy with not winning them lately. So I'm wondering how you will evaluate this offseason now, p

 

It's a complicated question.  The easiest way for me to break down the move, grade wise.

 

BPA grade -- value for the pick  C (I think they passed on two players that could help their defense who are distinctly better)

The player himself:  B  (I think he will be good, not a bust but also not great)

Addressing a need:  A+ (To me they have been train wreck level bad at addressing nose, now they do it, I like that part of it a lot)

 

Since they've turned a glaring weakness to a strength, so I'll elevate the D plus off season to a C plus.   If they take Guice in the 2nd round like the CBS mock i just posted, I'd elevate it all the way to an A minus.   I am afraid to lay out what I don't want to see happen in the 2nd because with my track record on this of late that will be what happens.   

 

To me they have crater size holes at RB and DT.  In my view, and just about every beat reporter who has spoken on this (I just heard Michael Phillips echo the same), Payne was a need based pick not BPA. 

 

44 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Or are you seeing it in the light of possibilities, like we could have had Hankins and James or (other NT) and James or some other combination of possibilities.

 

Exactly.  To me FA = need.  Draft = BPA.  It's about how everything flows together.   I don't look at any move in a vacuum. 

 

44 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

The 11-5 record was because the quote among most naysayers (not saying you here) is that its been soooooooo long since we won 11 games, so if we are able to get that monkey off our back this year will it change your evaluation? Will our ranking in run defense change it? Or are there any results that could change your opinion on this offseason, and with the pick of Payne, the pick?

 

 

11-5 would change everything.  You can get easily branded as being hardcore on one side or another based on volume of posts.  For example, I've said enough here on Payne that I'll likely be remembered as a Payne hater.  But I am far from it.  It's about like not love.  My favorite analogy is Mason Foster.  He's not a beast. But IMO he's good-solid.   

 

As for Bruce specifically. I really don't think that's the dude driving the draft.  So my opinion on him would be unlikely to change. My main beef with him anyway is about how he operates and how the team is perceived of as a consequence.  But as for the whole operation itself, I'd feel better about it.   Personally, I trust Jay and in concept Kyle Smith.  I'd love Bruce shoved aside as you know for Schaffer. 

 

44 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

If Payne shows the athletic presence that many say he has, collapsing the pockets, playing 3 downs, maybe getting sacks, maybe just being a part of a good rotation with Matt I, Allen and McGee that keeps Kerrigan, Smith, Lanier and Anderson clean on the pass rush.

 

I'm really wondering how set you are in your evaluations.

 

For Payne its tricky.  Like I said, I don't think the dude is a bust.  I think he's good.  It's not like when they signed McGee and McClain and Reyes where I thought yawn. To use a baseball analogy IMO we signed a 285 hitter with two 325 hitters on the board. 

 

So for my opinion to change that it was a good pick -- Payne would have to hit 325 or Edmonds and James would end up being 285 hitters, too.

 

And like I've said here, I am not arrogant where I think I have the dude figured out.  But heck we spend months on the draft thread and hours and hours watching players and listening to and reading reports.  So I stick to my opinions until I see otherwise.  Sometimes in retrospect I am right, sometimes wrong.   For example I actually on the draft thread two years ago was the only guy that I can recall who called Ionnaidis in the 5th round.   

 

Last year, I defended Dalvin Cook all the time and loved him.  He looked like a stud with Minny until his injury. I loved Kamara and took him in the board's mock draft.  I trashed Malik McDowell.  Looks like I was right on all of that. 

 

On the other hand, Doctson was my guy 2 years ago.  I was elated with the pick.  He was who i picked as best case scenario before that draft.  And they took him.  Not saying he's a bust but he's at least questionable and not as good as M. Thomas taken in the 2nd round.   I was also a big RG3 guy, loved the trade, that obviously ended up a disaster.

 

So my guess about Payne is as good or bad as anyone.  Even personnel guys get almost 50% of their first rounders wrong.  So I'd be a fool to stake my claim on ANY pick.  But if I didn't have the courage of my convictions on my pre draft takes on players -- what fun would that be?  Is it because I think I know more than lets say Kyle smith?  No way.  That would be silly.  So yeah I am totally open minded about Payne.  But not about Bruce. 

 

 

[Cooleyfan1993]

30 minutes ago, bakedtater1 said:

I thought the second third and fourth round was tonight?

nope, just 2nd and 3rd round. rounds 4 through 7 are tomorrow, as has been the case since uh...2011 I wanna say? 

3 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

So he can get healthy, remain that way, and run circles around us?

haha yeah I guess it's either that or we keep him and he remains often injured...guess it's a lose-lose situation no matter what 

[TK]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

So I think there is a least a chance that this argument really is do you draft for need or BPA?  That's the core of my issue at least.

Everyone keeps getting "need" or "BPA" twisted. It's not one or the other. It's one at the other.

 

It's BPA at position of need. And when teams do it that way, thats when you get most everyone scratching their heads. 

 

The other day when Doug had his presser, it was basically DT, RB in that order of identified positions of need that he was harping on. So when 13 rolled around, they may have had other guys at other positions rated above Payne, they still had DT ranked over S, LB, LG etc. 

 

Following that, I fully expect them to go RB in the 2nd round tonight & it's most likely RoJo or Guice. We're the only team to meet with both of them 4 times each. 

 

 

[JaxJoe]

Because I'm a nice guy and my wife thinks I'm working on my roof, here's a summary of the 30 top ranked players still available.  I've only seen a smidgen of notable players listed here and there so I thought I'd provide the laundry list. I got the list from the grades on NFL.com.  The designation of free vs strong safety is from draftscout.com.  http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000928854/article/2018-nfl-draft-best-players-available

 

Rank   Name   Position  College  Class

15  Will Hernandez OG  UTEP Senior

22  Connor Williams G Texas Junior (draftscout.com has him listed as best OT)

23  James Daniels C Iowa Junior (draftscout.com has him listed as best C)

30 Derris Guice RB LSU Junior

32 Dallas Goedert TE South Dakota State  Senior (RS)

33  Courtland Sutton  WR  SMU  Junior  (RS)

34  Nick Chubb  RB  Georgia  Senior

36  Harold Landry  Edge  Boston College  Senior

37  Christian Kirk  WR  Texas A&M  Junior (RS)

39  Donte Jackson  CB  LSU  Junior

41  Mike Gesicki  TE  Penn State  Seiner

42  Tyrell Crosby  G  Oregon  Senior

43  Carlton Davis CB  Auburn  Junior

44  Isaiah Oliver  CB  Colorado  Junior

45  Ronald Jones  RB  USC  Junior

46  D.J. Chark  WR  LSU  Senior

47  Orlando Brown  OT  Oklahoma  Junior (RS)

48  Ronnie Harrison  Safety (Strong)  Alabama  Junior

49  Justin Reid  Safety (Free)  Stanford  Junior

50  Nathan Shepherd  DT Fort Hayes State  Senior

51  Maurice Hurst  DT  Michigan  Senior

52  Jessie Bates Safety  Wake Forest Junior (RS)

53  Kerryon Johnson RB Auburn  Junior

55  Mark Andrews  TE  Oklahoma  Junior (RS)

56  Harrison Phillips  DT  Stanford  Senior

57  Anthony Miller  WR  Memphis  Senior

58  Brian O'Neill  OT  Pittsburgh  Junior (RS)

59  Martinas Rankin  Center  Mississippi State  Senior

60  Dante Pettis  WR  Washington  Senior

62  Austin Corbett Guard  Nevada  Senior (RS)

 

[Riggo#44]

2 minutes ago, TK said:

Following that, I fully expect them to go RB in the 2nd round tonight & it's most likely RoJo or Guice. We're the only team to meet with both of them 4 times each. 

 

 

 

Who do you prefer?

[TK]

Just now, Riggo#44 said:

 

Who do you prefer?

Guice

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, TK said:

Everyone keeps getting "need" or "BPA" twisted. It's not one or the other. It's one at the other.

 

It's BPA at position of need. And when teams do it that way, thats when you get most everyone scratching their heads. 

 

The other day when Doug had his presser, it was basically DT, RB in that order of identified positions of need that he was harping on. So when 13 rolled around, they may have had other guys at other positions rated above Payne, they still had DT ranked over S, LB, LG etc. 

 

Following that, I fully expect them to go RB in the 2nd round tonight & it's most likely RoJo or Guice. We're the only team to meet with both of them 4 times each. 

 

 

 

I get that point.  But I am with Cooley and some others on this.  In my opinion, this isn't an example of BPA meeting need.  Now if they take Guice in the 2nd it would be.  And "opinion" is the operative word.  I obviously could be dead wrong.  I've watched plenty of Payne to form my own opinion about him for better or worse.   I staked my claim as to what I think about the dude before the draft so I am sticking to it. 

 

Last year to me Allen at 17 was a perfect convergence of BPA and need.  In my humble opinion, not so this time.  I don't think its a disaster pick though.  Good player -- I question whether he's a great player.

 

If I recall you yourself said Fitzpatrick and D. James are top on their list if they are there at 13.  Cooley talked to Jay and some people there yesterday and based on those conversations he was surprised they ended up going Payne over James.  Ditto Tandler.  Ditto Michael Phillips.  Even Jay himself I thought sounded a bit hard to read whether he thought he was BPA -- some comments indicated yes, some no. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, JaxJoe said:

Because I'm a nice guy and my wife thinks I'm working on my roof, here's a summary of the 30 top ranked players still available.  I've only seen a smidgen of notable players listed here and there so I thought I'd provide the laundry list. I got the list from the grades on NFL.com.  The designation of free vs strong safety is from draftscout.com.  http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000928854/article/2018-nfl-draft-best-players-available

 

Rank   Name   Position  College  Class

 

30 Derris Guice RB LSU Junior

 

34  Nick Chubb  RB  Georgia  Senior

 

42  Tyrell Crosby  G  Oregon  Senior

 

45  Ronald Jones  RB  USC  Junior

 

57  Anthony Miller  WR  Memphis  Senior

 

 

The guys that I recall where there is some noise connected to them -- visits, reporters saying they like, etc.

[TK]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I get that point.  But I am with Cooley and some others on this.  In my opinion, this isn't an example of BPA meeting need.  Now if they take Guice in the 2nd it would be.  And "opinion" is the operative word.  I've watched plenty of Payne to form my own opinion about him for better or worse. 

 

Last year to me Allen at 17 was a perfect convergence of BPA and need.  In my humble opinion, not so this time.  I don't think its a disaster pick though.  Good player -- I question whether he's a great player.

 

If I recall you yourself said Fitzpatrick and D. James or top on their list if there.  Cooley talked to Jay and some people there yesterday and was surprised they went Payne over James.  Ditto Tandler.  Ditto Michael Phillips.  Even Jay himself I thought sounded a bit hard to read whether he thought he was BPA -- some comments indicated yes, some no. 

Oh I recall. And I sent someone a text that said **** Miami when they took Fitz. I was split between Payne & Edmonds at that point as there was some supposed  concern over James' knee. To me, Edwards would have seemed a better equalizer to the Giants taking Barkley. That said I still think they ranked S below DT because they believe in Nicholson.

 

For what it's worth, I wasn't picking on you, but rather the phrase. But I think you know that cause you're a smart mofo.  

[skinny21]

Missing Josh Jackson on that list, no?

[volsmet]

12 hours ago, LetMeSeeYourWarFace21 said:

 

 

Cut the bull****.......NOBODIES complaining that we invested in the line. They're complaining because they/we feel that the team didnt get value at that pick because of the player. 90% of this website has been waiting for Hankins to sign, JUST so that we can add to our weak ass line. People really wanted Vea over Payne. Most analyst had Vea ranked higher than Payne. Most analyst had had James going in the top 6-8 pix. Of course there are people who are goin to be annoyed. 

 

Not to mention, the team picking behind us picked up a first in 2019 to move back. There are a number of things we could have done that would have been preferred by many of the kind & gentle folks of ES. Derwin or the trade with the Saints would have been cause for tremendous celebration in my little corner of the world -- but I once ate nothing but taco bell for a week, that is to say, I dont always think things through.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, TK said:

Oh I recall. And I sent someone a text that said **** Miami when they took Fitz. I was split between Payne & Edmonds at that point as there was some supposed  concern over James' knee. To me, Edwards would have seemed a better equalizer to the Giants taking Barkley. That said I still think they ranked S below DT because they believe in Nicholson.

 

For what it's worth, I wasn't picking on you, but rather the phrase. But I think you know that cause you're a smart mofo.  

 

I loved Edmunds.  When the Dolphins took Vea I was elated (even though I liked Vea over Payne).  I was convinced then the Redskins would go Edmunds or James.  So when they picked Payne instead -- it crushed me in that moment .  Not because I hate Payne but I don't see the dude as worthy of #13 and I think they could have traded down and still likely gotten him.  But who knows.   I'll keep focusing on Payne >>>>>> Hood.  And its not even close. 

 

Ironically pretty early in the draft process way back last fall -- two of my early guys were Payne and Guice.  Over time, I grew to like Guice more and Payne less than I initially did.  At this point, I'd love it if they got Guice.

 

Any shot you think they'd try to trade up or do you think they stay put and keep their fingers crossed as for Guice? Or maybe Ronald Jones is close enough to them that they'd sit at 44 and hope he drops.  I also wonder about Josh Jackson -- beat guys were saying months back that they love him.

[volsmet]

8 minutes ago, TK said:

Oh I recall. And I sent someone a text that said **** Miami when they took Fitz. I was split between Payne & Edmonds at that point as there was some supposed  concern over James' knee. To me, Edwards would have seemed a better equalizer to the Giants taking Barkley. That said I still think they ranked S below DT because they believe in Nicholson.

 

For what it's worth, I wasn't picking on you, but rather the phrase. But I think you know that cause you're a smart mofo.  

 

Perhaps Payne & Jefferson will prove to be that equalizer.

[wilco_holland]

Some say Daniels would be nice for us, but isn't he to much a technique and light feet center type? I'm not sure if he could play guard in our scheme. I think the zone and screens are great for him but the power run parts not. I think we want a little more nasty guys. 

[JaxJoe]

37 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

So yeah I am totally open minded about Payne.

Not to be disrespectful but NFL.com's latest grading has Payne at 6.51, Vita Vea at 6.5 and Derwin James at 6.44.  But they had Edmunds at 7.17.  So Payne has a better grade than James.

 

Since losing Gallete I was, at first, all about Edmunds. But like you, I looked at video tape and my opinion changed. Also, reading fellow ES posts that said our pass-D wasn't all that bad regarding sacks and pressures, my opinion started to shift more towards Run-D and particularly to fix the gap at NT.

 

But to support TK's definition of BPA and the 'quality' of BPA vs. need, one has to obviously consider need if the grades are equal, and, if even the grades are close, need has to trump grade. But I also agree that FA should be all about need and draft should be BPA.  Trouble is, we didn't get that 1-tech or 3-tech tackle in FA so we are stuck with 'need' in the draft.

[RedskinsFanInSanAntonio]

If we get Guice tonight then would fill two big needs. Everything will be fine, and we will be talking playoffs.

[TK]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I loved Edmunds.  When the Dolphins took Vea I was elated (even though I liked Vea over Payne).  I was convinced they'd go Edmunds or James.  So when they picked Payne instead -- it crushed me in that moment .  Not because I hate Payne but I don't see the dude as worthy of #13 and I think they could have traded down and still likely gotten him.  But who knows.   I'll keep focusing on Payne >>>>>> Hood.  And its not even close. 

 

Any shot you think they'd try to trade up or do you think they stay put and keep their fingers crossed as for Guice? Or maybe Ronald Jones is close enough to them that they'd sit at 44 and hope he drops.  I also wonder about Josh Jackson -- beat guys were saying months back that they love him.

I'd have liked Payne better if they could have moved back & got him around 20 & maybe picked up a 2nd or 3rd doing so. I still had Payne over Vita meata vegamin though.

 

 

Trade up? No idea. My biggest fear was Philly taking him at 32. And then they traded back & I was able to breathe again.  I think it's a toss up if Guice & RoJo are both there though I think Guice may be taking the hit for screwing around with that whole "Is your mom a hooker?" troll job that caused a League investigation. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Skins drafted Payne. Next day Witten retires.

 

Cowinkydink?  

[bakedtater1]

56 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

nope, just 2nd and 3rd round. rounds 4 through 7 are tomorrow, as has been the case since uh...2011 I wanna say? 

haha yeah I guess it's either that or we keep him and he remains often injured...guess it's a lose-lose situation no matter what 

Cool thanks.. and in my mind for some reason I have always thought the three rounds  were day two..

52 minutes ago, TK said:

Everyone keeps getting "need" or "BPA" twisted. It's not one or the other. It's one at the other.

 

It's BPA at position of need. And when teams do it that way, thats when you get most everyone scratching their heads. 

 

The other day when Doug had his presser, it was basically DT, RB in that order of identified positions of need that he was harping on. So when 13 rolled around, they may have had other guys at other positions rated above Payne, they still had DT ranked over S, LB, LG etc. 

 

Following that, I fully expect them to go RB in the 2nd round tonight & it's most likely RoJo or Guice. We're the only team to meet with both of them 4 times each. 

 

 

Thank you for breaking that down, that's very helpful especially for us tater tot eating morons LOL... And I mean this in no sarcastic way at all..

[evmiii]

Alabama plays a role intensive defense, and Payne played his role well - stop the run inside.  He demonstrated times (National Championship game) that he was unblockable.  I liked Payne better than Vea from the start.  I was surprised that James was available and the skins would pass on him (maybe an injury concern), but I am excited to add Payne to our DL.  If we get a starting RB in round 2 i think the first two rounds were successful.  HTTR!

[nonniey]

55 minutes ago, TK said:

Everyone keeps getting "need" or "BPA" twisted. It's not one or the other. It's one at the other.

 

It's BPA at position of need. And when teams do it that way, thats when you get most everyone scratching their heads. 

 

The other day when Doug had his presser, it was basically DT, RB in that order of identified positions of need that he was harping on. So when 13 rolled around, they may have had other guys at other positions rated above Payne, they still had DT ranked over S, LB, LG etc. 

 

Following that, I fully expect them to go RB in the 2nd round tonight & it's most likely RoJo or Guice. We're the only team to meet with both of them 4 times each. 

 

 

Actually what most miss about BPA is getting best value at a particular spot in the draft.  I'd say Dayne was within the ballpark at 13 but there was opportunity to get even greater (much greater in fact) value by trading down. Either the Redskins didn't identify this or they declined it - either is evidence of a need to improve at the front office.

[Fat Stupid Loser]

58 minutes ago, TK said:

Guice

If we get him can we immediately start mispronouncing his name Juice. Cause it would be cool.

[WelshSkinsFan]

23 minutes ago, nonniey said:

Actually what most miss about BPA is getting best value at a particular spot in the draft.  I'd say Dayne was within the ballpark at 13 but there was opportunity to get even greater (much greater in fact) value by trading down. Either the Redskins didn't identify this or they declined it - either is evidence of a need to improve at the front office.

 

I believe this misses the keep it simple stupid formula.  We needed a DT, one we wanted was available at 13 with no guarantee he would still be there later and so we took him.  Moving back is very attractive and we all love to add more picks but sometimes you just have to fill the obvious need.  Everyone lauds the Browns for stockpiling picks but in doing so they subjected their fans to 1-31 over the last 2 years and failed to draft Wentz when he fell into their laps.  I like Baker Mayfield but much as it pains me to say it he is not in the same class as Wentz and no matter how well Cleveland drafts from here on out that mistake set the franchise back years.

 

Failure to get a run stuffing DT for our lousy run D in a division with Zeke and Barclay would be a catastrophic mistake even by the low standards of our Front Office.  We addressed a critical need with the BPA, job done, it is really that simple.