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Voice_of_Reason

Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

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I can hear reasons for gruden to get his last year,,  but for me the thing that moves me hardest is the chance that some very good coaching candidates are going to be available. No trainees, no college boys, .. guys with rings and experience..  McCarthy, Ron Rivera may be fired, Mike Tomlin is hearing noise..   if there is that level of talent out there..  i don't think Jay gets that last year.

 

~Bang

 

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Gruden looks defeated to me. Pretty sure he's getting canned and all of the **** storm will follow about front office fallouts, undermining personnel decisions, player discontent etc.

 

Personally I think he looks out of his depth. It's caught up with him. Fire him ASAP.

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1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

I think this season has sold me in the Gruden must go camp, or at least i know what Gruden is. Apart from his offense and his practices, he had never had a good defense. I would like to chalk that up to his bad luck and things like injuries, but i just don't think he either cares or knows how to hire a good defensive coordinator. I'm all for giving guys a chance and the DC search had the appearance of the most thorough search we've had of any open position, but here we are again with the same problems. 

 

Add to that the complaints of a J Allen and DJ and it seems like the place is run like a country club more than an NFL franchise. 

 

I'll wish Gruden well, but i think it's time for something new here. 

 

 

I wrote my lion's share on gruden from the beginning to the end of last season and stand by all that analysis. jay, no surprise, was a center for many of the dumbest exchanges in the forum for a long time. I'm not going to do a detailed recap, but there also were numerous legit complaints that were generally agreed to by most posters (time management;  2nd half adjustments; play-calling predictability or oddities--this latter complicated by not knowing concisely who's responsible for what, when, per these issues).

 

These would, unfortunately but inevitably, be mixed in with more-clueless or exaggerated or lazybrain stuff to a huge degree. but that was then, this is now.

 

I also wrote more than once the last few seasons about how if someone I cared about was headed for a team,  I'd prefer they find just about any other team since I think the Redskins work environment is quite toxic/dysfunctional/incompetent and risks stunting/damaging "new people" in their course of development. This is not making excuses---a never-useful exercise I don't engage in---it's analysis.

 

Without reviewing my own pro/con list on jay (which has become more con of course this season),  I became more concerned about him when talking to some around the team during the off-season. Since scot was fired, I'd heard of jay enjoying more "socializing" with bruce and dan and ever since I got here I'd  heard that lots of drinking/partying/good times were long a part of the culture and jay was becoming more of as good ole boy. I don't know if any of that is totally or partially true, for sure.  But I found the possibility credible and either way I thought this year would indeed be a make or break for jay in terms of overall success moving forward, regardless of what misfortunes befell him.

 

And plenty of misfortune did fall to him,  but the way he responded was, in the end, quite unsatisfactory. I don't know if today's jay is as solid as jay at the beginning of the previous season, but i seriously doubt it. I think he may still be able to salvage himself, hone some real strengths he has and work on his real weaknesses. But the sooner he's out of here the better for him, and at this point, for us.

 

Jay has had a very ****ty hand here all along---really a long unfortunate run of negative events beyond  the norm and his control---but he's also created so many messes and failures of his own in his responses that this is well and fully over afaic. The sooner jay's gone the better for him and us--but yeas, everyone is right also in saying bruce is even more of a line to cut and if you do jay you really need to do bruce the same time.

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2 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

Gruden looks defeated to me. Pretty sure he's getting canned and all of the **** storm will follow about front office fallouts, undermining personnel decisions, player discontent etc.

 

Personally I think he looks out of his depth. It's caught up with him. Fire him ASAP.

 

I dont know how you cant look defeated after that display yesterday.  Particularly when you're not operating from a position of job security.  

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2 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

I dont know how you cant look defeated after that display yesterday.  Particularly when you're not operating from a position of job security.  

 

I think he looked defeated before yesterday. The press conference after the Foster pick-up was a joke, in my opinion....He just didn't want to be there, looked awkward as hell, and fairly hacked off with life. Fair enough, that was a difficult situation, but my God he made hard work of it for over 10 minutes.

 

Hes not a happy camper. I said all along I felt the tenures of Gruden and Alex Smith would be directly linked. Sadly for Smith, he looks done. Gruden isn't getting another go around with another QB. I would be shocked, and disappointed, if he did.

 

....and he still doesn't know when the right time is to call a timeout.

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Something else that has bothered me for years. This team NEVER has any fire. EVER!!  I see the players huddle up in their circle before every game and DJ or somebody give their little talk and everyone sings Kumbaya or whatever, but nothing ever changes. This team needs a motivator!  Heck, hire Brian Mitchell just to run up and down the sidelines every game to put his foot up these guys rear ends. I'm tired of seeing guys smiling and laughing and acting so nonchalant. I want to see guys frothing from the mouth to go out there and destroy somebody. Give me some more Dexter Manley/Brian Mitchell type players. I want some Fire out there!

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Carl Banks went to the game and he said on the WFAN around noon Monday that the Skins D quit on their coach. My only hope it that Jay does not win some meaningless games and it costs us a higher draft choice like it did last year.

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38 minutes ago, Bang said:

I can hear reasons for gruden to get his last year,,  but for me the thing that moves me hardest is the chance that some very good coaching candidates are going to be available. No trainees, no college boys, .. guys with rings and experience..  McCarthy, Ron Rivera may be fired, Mike Tomlin is hearing noise..   if there is that level of talent out there..  i don't think Jay gets that last year.

 

~Bang

 

 

See, I'm the opposite.  I dont want any retreads that wore out their welcome somewhere else.  I want some new blood, some modern thinking.  If you're gonna rebuild, rebuild with some fresh energy.  But no people that knew a guy from some other gig years ago.  

 

But ultimately, it doesnt make a lick of difference without the QB.  What do McCarthy, Rivera, and Tomlin all have in common?  Star QBs.  And they've never coached without one.  In this organization, winning cache doesnt count for much.  

 

They've got to draft somebody and that guy has got be the real deal, or whatever they hired as HC would be doomed to fail.  

 

It's 3 layers of failure this team has endured: GM, coach, QB.  Any one of them that's weak will short circuit the whole thing.  I left the owner out only because there's nothing that can be done about it.  But even a sketchy owner like Jimmy Haslem seems to have picked the right guy in Dorsey (retaining Hue Jackson notwithstanding), so it can be done.  

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Retaining Hue was not Dorsey's call.  Jimmy H and his wife were close with Hue and wanted him to be given a chance and so Dorsey gave him enough rope and then went back to the Haslam's when Hue managed to continue screwing up even after getting a stacked roster. 

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1 hour ago, Jumbo said:

Without reviewing my own pro/con list on jay (which has become more con of course this season),  I became more concerned about him when talking to some around the team during the off-season. Since scot was fired, I'd heard of jay enjoying more "socializing" with bruce and dan and ever since I got here I'd  heard that lots of drinking/partying/good times were long a part of the culture and jay was becoming more of as good ole boy. I don't know if any of that is totally or partially true, for sure.  But I found the possibility credible and either way I thought this year would indeed be a make or break for jay in terms of overall success moving forward, regardless of what misfortunes befell him.

 

This is what scares me. I hear the rumors and right now I've got to treat them like rumors instead of as fact, but judging by output it is looking like something's up. And even if Jay's not in that group, its clear Bruce is there. And Vinny was there. If thats a requirement for employment here, then its a problem. I do question if Gibbs was in a place like that, so it gives me hope that we could hire somebody who's not in that good times culture. But is that why Gibbs left? Was it the death of ST? Was this culture why GW didn't get the job? So many questions

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1 hour ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

Carl Banks went to the game and he said on the WFAN around noon Monday that the Skins D quit on their coach. My only hope it that Jay wins some meaningless games and it costs us a higher draft choice like it did last year.

They quit because the coach quit.

 

Attitude reflect leadership.

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2 hours ago, Bang said:

I can hear reasons for gruden to get his last year,,  but for me the thing that moves me hardest is the chance that some very good coaching candidates are going to be available. No trainees, no college boys, .. guys with rings and experience..  McCarthy, Ron Rivera may be fired, Mike Tomlin is hearing noise..   if there is that level of talent out there..  i don't think Jay gets that last year.

 

~Bang

 

 

I'm closer to being ready to move on from Jay (I've been steadfast for years that I want him here), but I'm still neutral enough that I'd accept him staying...

 

One big assumption...it has to be a decision made by a new front office. If Allen is gone and the new front office evaluates things and makes the decision based on merit or fit (not money or continuity) then I'll accept it. 

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Whenever I see some of the plays from around the NFL, I just don't see Jay with the nerve to even try that stuff. Like the Chicago game last night. They redefined heavy jumbo properly.  We cannot even complete a pass to our #3 TE with close to 250 snaps on the year. They had 4 extra lineman playing offense.

 

Where is that sort of innovation from Jay?  I did see where he tried to have Reed throw a pass, and that worlds ugliest buttend around 2 games ago, whatever that was.  Those were closer to swinging gates.  The hook and lateral by Pitt before the slip kick fail. Of course the Miami miracle, that really wasn't all that innovative, other than they practice it ever week.  We probably never practice that. The Super Bowl play by Philly, copied a few times since, successfully. 

 

The rare stuff we may try, never works. While it always seems to work for the other teams.

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54 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

They quit because the coach quit.

 

Attitude reflect leadership.

Funny you said that Jay has quit because I cannot tell the difference between Jay quitting and when he is really trying. Good thing Giant coach had some heart as Barkley wanted to stay in and hang 60 on us. How more years do we have to put up with this from a team with more looses than us?

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3 hours ago, Bang said:

I can hear reasons for gruden to get his last year,,  but for me the thing that moves me hardest is the chance that some very good coaching candidates are going to be available. No trainees, no college boys, .. guys with rings and experience..  McCarthy, Ron Rivera may be fired, Mike Tomlin is hearing noise..   if there is that level of talent out there..  i don't think Jay gets that last year.

 

~Bang

 

I would take any of those guys in a heartbeat over Jay. The rule of thumb in the NFL is that you do not let a coach go into his last year without giving him a extension. The players will not play for a guy that they may think is gone with only a short time left.  Now has Jay signed a extension? I don't think so. Fair well we will all mis you, lol.

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4 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

I would take any of those guys in a heartbeat over Jay. The rule of thumb in the NFL is that you do not let a coach go into his last year without giving him a extension. The players will not play for a guy that they may think is gone with only a short time left.  Now has Jay signed a extension? I don't think so. Fair well we will all mis you, lol.

 

 

Jay signed an extension a couple years ago that has him on his deal THROUGH the 2020 season, so he's got 2 years after this one to go. 

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first - why does everyone say "Last year". Bad new boys -He signed a extension and is under contract until end of 2020 season!  

2nd - I actually like him as a OC.  I know that is not popular -but i think in general he actually comes up with a good game plan.  He works well with QB's and knows where the strength is.

Thats the good stuff.

 

Bad -He makes ZERO adjustments.  

He has zero time management skills.

He does not know how to motivate and get the most out of his players.

Biggest -He quits.  You see it on him all the time.  Ive said it for years - if the skins are down by 14 or more in the 4th qtr -he quits. He starts running out the clock, stops rushing.  His players see it.  I can give so many examples - Games that we most likely were going to lose no matter what - but he just stops trying.  Its embarrassing and snowballs. It snowballs. Its why even when we were playing well, our losses were blowouts (We are losing -guess we wont win).  Here is a great example.

 

Skins / Eagles MNF. A close game for the most part.  14-13 going into 4th qtr.  

Things fall apart and all of a sudden - 4th and 24 with about 3:30 left and us on our own 22.  

We punted.  

Odds we convert there? less then 1%.  Odds we score and get make it a 1 possession game?  Very little.  

Odds of doing anything if we punt?  0%.  But he gave up. Lets punt. get rid of it.  So why does it matter?

 

Compare that to MNF against the Cowboys in 2005.  Team had played almost 8 qtrs without scoring a TD. Down by 2 TD's with 3:50 left facing a 4th and 15 deep in our territory.  Gruden - in a situation punts.  

Gibbs went for it.  TD.  Skins get ball back and score again and win. 

 

Do the skins win MNF if they went for it? Doubt it. But it shows the team you are gonna play until the end. That you wont quit. That you are going to play to win the game until the last second.  

Meanwhile - Gruden is thinking about how quick he can get on the bus.  

 

He quits.

If Gibbs was a poster on this board he would be posting in the playoffs thread about how we can still make the playoffs.

Gruden will be the one posting in the same thread that its stupid and there is zero chance and we should just try to wrap the season without any more bad injuries.  

 

 

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4 hours ago, Jumbo said:

I became more concerned about him when talking to some around the team during the off-season. Since scot was fired, I'd heard of jay enjoying more "socializing" with bruce and dan and ever since I got here I'd  heard that lots of drinking/partying/good times were long a part of the culture and jay was becoming more of as good ole boy. I don't know if any of that is totally or partially true, for sure.  But I found the possibility credible and either way I thought this year would indeed be a make or break for jay in terms of overall success moving forward, regardless of what misfortunes befell him.

 

And plenty of misfortune did fall to him,  but the way he responded was, in the end, quite unsatisfactory. I don't know if today's jay is as solid as jay at the beginning of the previous season, but i seriously doubt it. I think he may still be able to salvage himself, hone some real strengths he has and work on his real weaknesses. But the sooner he's out of here the better for him, and at this point, for us.

 

Jay has had a very ****ty hand here all along---really a long unfortunate run of negative events beyond  the norm and his control---but he's also created so many messes and failures of his own in his responses that this is well and fully over afaic. The sooner jay's gone the better for him and us--but yeas, everyone is right also in saying bruce is even more of a line to cut and if you do jay you really need to do bruce the same time.

 

This comment from Keim who is typically very careful about what he says plays into that thought some

 

https://thefandc.radio.com/washington-redskins-cant-come-back-same-leadership-group

"Dan Snyder has plenty of tough decision to make this offseason, but one problem which Keim points out is Snyder's "inner circle" includes the likes of Allen and Gruden, whose jobs need to be evaluated.

"Inside the organization, ... it's Bruce, and it's Bruce and Jay," he said. "I don't know that there's anybody else there."

 

I've said many times on the board, I like Jay but don't love him.  I think to survive the jungle there you need Jay's laid back and fun loving personality with the gift to easily make insecure ego maniacs like Dan-Bruce feel good and more importantly don't feel threatened.    So the idea that Jay perhaps has really gone to town on that front socializing with Dan wouldn't surprise me.   And if so, I'd bet its driven by Dan as opposed to the other way around.  For me the most shocking comments I've heard about Dan was Vinny reciting why Gregg Williams didn't get the HC job with Vinny saying the kicker was Gregg didn't bond like pals with him and Dan when they watched the playoffs together. 

 

So the social bonding stuff seems to be a really big deal at Redskins Park.  Heck reading about how Dan was charmed by Mark Sanchez when he was coming out that year in the draft and that was part of the soup as to the team's interest in him.  How he liked RG3 over Luck even if they had a chance to take Luck -- now who comes off more fun-- RG3 or Luck?

 

Some hyperbole to make a point but Dan seems more interested in using his position to secure his social life than anything else.  The stories about him hanging with Portis, RG3.  The fact that he couldn't let Vinny go for so long because of how close he was with him.   The asking Shanny to go to the Carribean with him to celebrate the RG3 trade.  And with all the talk about Bruce today, I've heard multiple times about how Dan really likes to hang with him.  I am reading a book about the NFL right now called Big Game by Mark Leibovich where he characterizes Dan if anything as being socially awkward.

 

Almost comes off like Dan was the nerd in school, now he's a big deal and owns a franchise and wants to use it to be cool and create a social network he didn't have growing up.   Jay on the other hand comes off like he would have been one of the cool kids in high school so I'd bet Dan enjoys his company.  

 

Back to Jay, I don't love the stories that hook him in as a package with Bruce and some beat guys see it that way.  If that's truly the case, then I am ok with Jay leaving with Bruce.  I like any team regardless to have a structure where the GM decides the HC job.   As for Jay the HC, I think some of the criticisms of him made by some people are exaggerations.    And I think just about every head coach with a rare exception has glaring weaknesses  in the mix of the soup.  Plus I have doubts that Dan will easily hire someone better -- the new shiny coordinator always sounds cool in theory. 

 

Heck even Zorn sounded cool to some -- the zany, outside the box QB guru who molded Hasselbeck.  All these guys have their cool story attached to them -- so I am not as excited about name that next hot shot coordinator on the way considering the problem with this team is clearly the structure above them.

 

However, i am cool with moving on if it involves a new GM.  I agree with some of the criticisms I read here about Jay.  But I am doubting we will easily find someone better.  Will see. 

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3 minutes ago, TMK9973 said:

first - why does everyone say "Last year". Bad new boys -He signed a extension and is under contract until end of 2020 season!  

2nd - I actually like him as a OC.  I know that is not popular -but i think in general he actually comes up with a good game plan.  He works well with QB's and knows where the strength is.

Thats the good stuff.

 

 

I disagree.  I see no positives with Jay at this point.

 

I remember exactly one quick slant pass this year. 

We don't run nearly enough screens, and when we do, they mostly get blown up.

We bail on the run game way too early, especially with this flaccid passing attack.

He runs CT up the middle like he is Clinton Portis.

 

I'm so done with him.  Time for him to hit the highway.

 

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1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

They quit because the coach quit.

 

Attitude reflect leadership.

Considering some stuff, I can see him wanting to get out of this mess...

 

BA. The Foster Presser, AS forced onto him, FA rumblings...

 

Guy is sure to get another 10M even if he's fired.

 

Too many injuries have derailed this team, Fo is trating him like crap.

I could want to get out of this soon as well.

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I just listened to Jays presser and it was pathetic. Placing blame on ghost penalties is simply a losers excuse. Those offensive penalties had nothing to do with his defense getting consistently gashed. Yes. He was dealt a ****ty hand with the injuries AGAIN this year. But the healthy side of the ball was abysmal yesterday. And worse yet his players quit on him. I actually like Jay. And defended him hard over the past two seasons. But it is time for him to go.

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3 hours ago, VaK9Trainer said:

Something else that has bothered me for years. This team NEVER has any fire. EVER!!  I see the players huddle up in their circle before every game and DJ or somebody give their little talk and everyone sings Kumbaya or whatever, but nothing ever changes. This team needs a motivator!  Heck, hire Brian Mitchell just to run up and down the sidelines every game to put his foot up these guys rear ends. I'm tired of seeing guys smiling and laughing and acting so nonchalant. I want to see guys frothing from the mouth to go out there and destroy somebody. Give me some more Dexter Manley/Brian Mitchell type players. I want some Fire out there!

SOME of this I don't actually put that on Jay.  That's a players thing.  Your coach can't be the ra-ra guy.  That's got to be leadership.

 

We don't have those guys.  I think Allen might be one of those guys.  But he's in his second year. 

 

HOWEVER.  The other thing is that it's really tough to get fired up about a scheme you know is vanilla and just plain sucks. If _I_ can tell what the 1st down play is 80% of the time 2 weeks before the game, you sure as hell KNOW the players know, and they also know the results, and they know there are no adjustments, so they KNOW they are bringing a knife to a gun fight every week.  

 

Once that realization sets in with a group of players, there is no excitement, no belief, and you end up with a bunch of guys just going through the motions.

 

The players know they have a doofus as a head coach.  They might like the doofus because he doesn't make them practice hard, and they are well paid, and he's a nice guy.  But they know as well as anybody what the scheme is, and that Gruden is going to call the same unimaginative plays over and over, and do the most convervative thing in all situations.  It's REALLY tough to get fired up about that.

 

Then you look at teams like the Chiefs.  Do you think Andy Reid ra-ra's it up?  Hell no.  But the team is fired up because what they do is innovative, he figures out how to get players in position to make plays, and success breeds success. (At least in the regular season for Reid.)

 

Bellichick barely mumbles anything, but the Patriots are always fired up.  Why?  Because they always know they have a shot to win.  Some of that is Brady, but they are one of the most well prepared teams in the league year in and year out. 

 

If you are a player and you know you're in a position to succeed, then you're going to be jazzed going into the game.  If you know you're going to run Duo on 80% of first downs which typically results in +/- 2 yards, you're just not going to have that type of belief or excitement. 

 

The same goes for the defense.  The number of times we blitz then play soft behind it and leave our DBs out to dry is astonishing.  Combined with the fact our blitz scheme is just "meh" to begin with.  We rarely get free runners.  Some of that might be on players.  Foster blitzed on one play and instead of chosing to TRY and get around the RG, he just slammed into him, got stood up, and that was that. 

 

When the defense brings 5, it rarely works.  What sometimes works is when they bring 6, with 2 guys going through the same gap. However, if you play soft behind that, and you have an NFL quality QB on the other side, they will find the open guy and get him the ball before the trailing blitzer gets there. 

 

And _I_ know this.  And I know virtually NOTHING about football.  Never played, never coached, just watch, pay attention, and learn.  But if I know it, the players know it, and the opposing coaches know it. 

 

So I don't blame the players for being a bit dis-enchanted with this mess. 

 

1 hour ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

Funny you said that Jay has quit because I cannot tell the difference between Jay quitting and when he is really trying. Good thing Giant coach had some heart as Barkley wanted to stay in and hang 60 on us. How more years do we have to put up with this from a team with more looses than us?

Him failing to call TOs against the Eagles to try and get the ball back, even if Sanchez was going to give it right back showed the give up. 

 

It's the actions.  He just flat gave up.  And with the game plan at the beginning of the game on offense, it was the same tired stuff with no real thought on figuring out how to get Sanchez comfortable.  It looked like he just used the same plan as the week before and rolled with it because he knew they had no chance. 

51 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

McCarthy or Tomlin hires would be the absolute worst and most Redskins thing we could do. 

I'd be down with Tomlin only because I went to college with him.  Tribe Pride, baby, Tribe Pride.  :)

 

McCarthy wouldn't be so good.

 

That said, both are at least 50% better coaches than Gruden, both are respected by a vast number of other coaches, and both could put together a competent staff.

 

I'd prefer somebody else, but they would both be immediate upgrades.   

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Tomlin gets destroyed by Steelers fans for the same stuff we hate about Gruden: That the team, no matter how talented that particular year, plays down to competition and is inconsistent in preparedness. Stupid penalties. He's got more fire than Gruden and the locker room likes him, but there is nothing special about Tomlin that makes him a good guy to give a second chance to. It's just another NFL cocoon signing, whoever makes it. And yet another hiring of a guy who already won a SB with someone else, just like Shanahan. And McCarthy, actually. But hiring guys just because they've coached for respectable organizations before--that's not a good process. They are being fired by those respectable organizations for a reason (in the event that Tomlin is fired), and don't have the bounce-back appeal of a guy like Andy Reid who legitimately IS an X's and O's genius on offense and had an emotional end to his Eagle's tenure (his son dying) that led to a much-needed refresh for both sides. But usually these long-time retreads do not work out, for a reason. Tomlin will never have the talent, stability, or trusting fanbase around him here that he has in Pittsburgh, and that hasn't even been enough for him there in recent years. 

 

McCarthy would be even worse. They might have the nepotism, connections and "respect" of fellow coaches around the league who benefit from the same relationships, but to say he'd definitely hire a better coaching staff, due to his name, than Gruden? Idk, I think it will be similar. The Packers have one of the least imaginative offenses in the NFL year after year despite having a HOF QB who could do a better job just calling his own plays. Packers fans hate it. The Packers have  had one of the worst defenses (and especially secondaries) for most of McCarthy's tenure because his DC choices have been mostly uninspired during that time. Packers fans have hated watching Rodgers window shrink as he gets older, wasting away with McCarthy. I'd hate to see a new young QB squandered in the same way. 

 

Maybe most importantly, both of these HC's have had the fortune of winning their SB's and having their general success on the backs of future HOF QB's. No thanks. We've already tried that. These guys are not bringing any new ideas to the NFL and while they'll doubtless be hired somewhere, it would be a continuation of old, tired mistakes to make that choice here. I have no doubt the professionalism and gravitas of Tomlin would be  very coveted by Snyder--the latest HC to give him legitimacy. And maybe it would be an improvement on Gruden and lead to more of an organizational culture change. But long term, I don't think it gets us a SB, and I think it ultimately may be another one step forward, two steps back choice. Hopefully we hire a legit GM who has different qualifications in mind, where retreads like these guys aren't even of interest for what we're trying to build. But I doubt it. 

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@ConnSKINS26 you are probably right.

 

Maybe they struggle as much as Gruden does without Ben and Aaron. 

 

I'm saying, I'd be at least willing to give it a try over this guy.

 

I'd prefer they didn't hire either one, and I doubt either one would come here with our cap situation anyway.  I don't know who the ideal fit is, however there is a completely separate thread for this discussion, so I'll leave it there. 

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