Redskins receiving corp is beginning to shape up

[OVCChairman]

In fairness.. our offense is never going to TRULY run through the players outside of the hashmarks.  It would appear that everything works from the inside out.  I'd love to see more outside, it just doesnt look like Grudens offense is going to work that way.  

 

 

That said, I'm quickly losing what hope I did have for Doc to become a contributor.  I can't imagine that he's running free and Alex is just missing him.  GB was the worst pass defense we've faced this season and he had 3 targets for 0 catches.  To his credit, on 2 of those targets, there was a defensive penalty against the person covering him, so those are essentially catches.  He has clearly not been worth the pick we used on him.  I'd say we very quickly need to consider using 1st or 2nd on a WR if things don't have some sort of serious turn around... which I don't have a lot of confidence is possible.  

 

I'm also starting to wonder if we need to pay Crowder with the expectation of letting Doc walk at the end of his contract.... drafting a no. 1 type and having them on a rookie deal.  

[JSSkinz]

13 hours ago, Chachie said:

DeAngelo Hall was on the Sports Junkies today. He was raving about Docston. Saying that the game time targets are unfortunate because people just don't know how good Josh is. He said Josh is a team player who really wants the ball more but won't speak out because he wants to be a good team member. Hall emphasized Doc's ball skills and kept repeating that the fans just don't know.

 

The Junkies were like, "Really, De? Really." ?

He was on there after week 1 saying Doctson needs to get tougher and he was talking about his issues along with how Pryor caught everything in practice but dropped balls in games, he was eluding to the fact neither player can "get right".  But he did also say that Doctson has all the tools and his tone wasn't negative when talking about Doctson.

 

 

[Peregrine]

I think its rather pointless to judge our receivers when we hardly throw to them, because we are scoring points through the rest of our offense.  Throwing to receivers has never been something Smith did much, and it doesnt appear to be anything we want to do when we get the lead.  We dominated both the Cardinals and Packers with hardly giving our receivers a sniff, and I suspect that is what we will do all season long as long as we dont fall behind, and the defense and running game play well.

[bird_1972]

13 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

People raved about Taylor Jacobs too.

 

Catch the ball on Sunday then get back to me.

 

Yup, fool me once - shame on you. 

 

Fool me twice - shame on me.

[Morneblade]

4 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

In fairness.. our offense is never going to TRULY run through the players outside of the hashmarks.  It would appear that everything works from the inside out.  I'd love to see more outside, it just doesnt look like Grudens offense is going to work that way.  

 

Disagree. it worked that way with Cousins. It worked that way in Cincy. Alex just utilizes TE's and RB a lot more.

 

4 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

 

That said, I'm quickly losing what hope I did have for Doc to become a contributor.  I can't imagine that he's running free and Alex is just missing him.  GB was the worst pass defense we've faced this season and he had 3 targets for 0 catches.  To his credit, on 2 of those targets, there was a defensive penalty against the person covering him, so those are essentially catches.  He has clearly not been worth the pick we used on him.  I'd say we very quickly need to consider using 1st or 2nd on a WR if things don't have some sort of serious turn around... which I don't have a lot of confidence is possible.  

 

I'm also starting to wonder if we need to pay Crowder with the expectation of letting Doc walk at the end of his contract.... drafting a no. 1 type and having them on a rookie deal.  

 

I'm not sure I use a 1st on a WR. Not because we don't need one, but we don't seem to be able to draft one. I'd look in FA to be honest, I have no faith our FO can identify a WR in the 1st/2nd round that is going to be productive.

 

53 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

He was on there after week 1 saying Doctson needs to get tougher and he was talking about his issues along with how Pryor caught everything in practice but dropped balls in games, he was eluding to the fact neither player can "get right".  But he did also say that Doctson has all the tools and his tone wasn't negative when talking about Doctson.

 

 

 

I think that's the real issue. Doctson is "soft".

 

18 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

I think its rather pointless to judge our receivers when we hardly throw to them, because we are scoring points through the rest of our offense.  Throwing to receivers has never been something Smith did much, and it doesnt appear to be anything we want to do when we get the lead.  We dominated both the Cardinals and Packers with hardly giving our receivers a sniff, and I suspect that is what we will do all season long as long as we dont fall behind, and the defense and running game play well.

 

Well, there are going to be times that we fall behind. And if we can't use our WR's then every game like that is going to end up like the Colts game. And no offense, the Colts are not that good.

[mistertim]

9 hours ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Where’d you get the “Doctson is a headache” thing from in that part about DeAngelo hall talking about him on the radio? ?

 

I don't think he is. It was mostly a tongue-in-cheek jab at Dez, since he can be a headache and whine when he doesn't get enough targets and people are talking about the merits of getting Dez vs having Doc.

[justice98]

1 hour ago, Morneblade said:

I'm not sure I use a 1st on a WR. Not because we don't need one, but we don't seem to be able to draft one. I'd look in FA to be honest, I have no faith our FO can identify a WR in the 1st/2nd round that is going to be productive.

 

I think that's the real issue. Doctson is "soft".

 

Well, there are going to be times that we fall behind. And if we can't use our WR's then every game like that is going to end up like the Colts game. And no offense, the Colts are not that good.

 

This Bruce Allen as GM administration has missed on Doctson, hit on Crowder.  That's 4th rd or better.  Cant really fault them if a late rd WR doesnt pan out as a big contributor.

 

So that being said, if there's somebody there in the first or second, they need to take him.  Cuz if you take a gander at the FA WR class next year, it isnt pretty when it comes to starting WR types.  It's basically Golden Tate, Devin Funchess, Kelvin Benjamin, Randall Cobb, Quincy Enunwa, and Jermaine Kearse.  Assuming they all make it to free agency.  Everybody else is a 3rd/4th WR type.  Tate is fine, but he's a little guy and he'll be 31 when next season starts.  

[XxSpearheadxX]

6 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

This Bruce Allen as GM administration has missed on Doctson, hit on Crowder.  That's 4th rd or better.  Cant really fault them if a late rd WR doesnt pan out as a big contributor.

 

For what it's worth, Doctson was Scott M. draft pick. 

[bird_1972]

13 minutes ago, justice98 said:

So that being said, if there's somebody there in the first or second, they need to take him.  Cuz if you take a gander at the F WR class next year, it isnt pretty when it comes to starting WR types.  It's basically Golden Tate, Devin Funchess, Kelvin Benjamin, Randall Cobb, Quincy Enunwa, and Jermaine Kearse.  

 

I like Enunwa. He's a poor-mans Garcon. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by bird_1972

[justice98]

16 minutes ago, XxSpearheadxX said:

For what it's worth, Doctson was Scott M. draft pick. 

 

You're right, I was confirming when Bruce took over and misread "hired" Scot M as "fired". lol  

 

Then that's even better for Bruce's WR record. 

10 minutes ago, bird_1972 said:

 

I like Enunwa. He's a poor-mans Garcon. 

 

I like Enuwa too.  But I suspect the Jets dont let him walk.

Edited September 25, 2018 by justice98

[ILikeBilly]

Doctson also caught the first ball thrown to him in the gb game.  Problem was that Alex lead him out of bounds with the throw.  It was one of the first plays of the game.  So, it was said earlier that he was targeted 3 times. He drew 2 PI calls and caught the poorly thrown 3rd pass.  Far from good, but it did help the team.

[XxSpearheadxX]

JD has a whole season to make an impact. Its on him, he comes out and dominates the Saints secondary then we are all humming a different tune. 

 

I'm firmly planted in the I'll believe in it when I see it camp now

[bird_1972]

Jay needs to open up the playbook for Alex and give him more autonomy

[OVCChairman]

2 hours ago, Morneblade said:

 

Disagree. it worked that way with Cousins. It worked that way in Cincy. Alex just utilizes TE's and RB a lot more.

 

 

I'm not sure I use a 1st on a WR. Not because we don't need one, but we don't seem to be able to draft one. I'd look in FA to be honest, I have no faith our FO can identify a WR in the 1st/2nd round that is going to be productive.

 

 

I think that's the real issue. Doctson is "soft".

 

 

Well, there are going to be times that we fall behind. And if we can't use our WR's then every game like that is going to end up like the Colts game. And no offense, the Colts are not that good.

 

 

you're right, it did work with Cousins.  And a small part of me feels like the gameplan the last 3 weeks has favored that interior of the field type of offense...  But I'm still having a hard time believing that our outside WRs had no real separation vs GBs poor pass defense.  There is a facet of me that understands just how effective our run game was vs ARI and vs GB, so we didn't NEED to look outside.  We had 1 big play shot vs ARI and it resulted in a penalty.  Had there not been an interference, it's likely Richardson goes for 75 and a TD on that play which changes a bit of the conversation.  We had 1 big catch vs GB which resulted in a TD.  Sprinkle in a couple more 'shots' here and there, but no real pressure downfield.  Indy played a 2 high safety set that a LOT of players have commented about just how deep they were playing, forcing us to not even give a deep ball a shot...  

 

Each game I can look at and say I 'understand' why the long ball didnt connect... but we need to see more of it.  NO isn't gonna play this game with us.  Brees is going to attack us, and he's got game film from a year ago that will show him how to beat us quickly.  

 

I don't necessarily use a 1st on a WR either depending on what's there.  I have other 'druthers' that i'd look at, but my point was that looking at our offense.... WR and LG are the two biggest weaknesses.  Defensively, there's not much of a need that would warrant a 1st rounder... so if Brandon Scherff 2.0 isnt available and a WR with a no. 1 grade is... I'd say take the WR.  

 

Starting to agree with you on Doc being 'soft'.  He's not showing me that winning is the most important thing to him.  Of course i'm speaking purely speculative because I've never met the guy, or have any idea how he is in the locker room... but he NEVER talks to the media, and you never see emotional breakaways from him.  If I'm in the locker room, he needs to show me he's frustrated that he's not getting the ball.  That may fall on Gruden or Alex, or he needs to get pissed off that he's not getting open.  He may have done it behind the scenes, who knows, but he's also losing a lot of steam in his career here.  Something's gotta give, and sitting back watching the world go by aint gonna help.  Time to pull up your big boy pants and make plays.  

 

 

Youre' 100% right about falling behind and it makes me nervous.  We can't expect to score 24 points in the 1st half of every game.  We're going to get into dogfights and it makes me really nervous.  I fear that this team will go .500 because half the games are like week 3... half are like week 2.  

[OVCChairman]

1 hour ago, bird_1972 said:

Jay needs to open up the playbook for Alex and give him more autonomy

 

 

Just curious as to why you think the playbook is closed and why you think Jay is holding Alex back?  I'm not saying you're wrong... I just wonder where you're coming up with that thought?  Has it been reported?  

[RandyHolt]

I will suggest by reading Alex at the line, we can see a lack of audibles etc. 

 

I have never liked that every single play for a QB needs to be radio'd in, here in the modern era. Rodgers headset failed this week, IIRC.

 

I'd wager the record will show QBs allowed to make a play call immediately after another, can exploit a defense better than a coach can. A coach has his head down in his playbook while the QB and WR are dying for the exact same play call to exploit something they just saw. That which takes a coach a new series to try to exploit. By then, the DC has adjusted, and the door has closed.

Edited September 25, 2018 by RandyHolt

[Morneblade]

41 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

you're right, it did work with Cousins.  And a small part of me feels like the gameplan the last 3 weeks has favored that interior of the field type of offense...  But I'm still having a hard time believing that our outside WRs had no real separation vs GBs poor pass defense.  There is a facet of me that understands just how effective our run game was vs ARI and vs GB, so we didn't NEED to look outside.  We had 1 big play shot vs ARI and it resulted in a penalty.  Had there not been an interference, it's likely Richardson goes for 75 and a TD on that play which changes a bit of the conversation.  We had 1 big catch vs GB which resulted in a TD.  Sprinkle in a couple more 'shots' here and there, but no real pressure downfield.  Indy played a 2 high safety set that a LOT of players have commented about just how deep they were playing, forcing us to not even give a deep ball a shot...  

 

Couple of things here. GB did a lot to overhaul it's secondary in the offseason, so it's not the same secondary as last year. As to Richardsons catch last Sunday, he was double covered, and they had him bracketed. He was covered. So, the whole 2 high safety thing doesn't hold a ton of water. You can still take shots, just like you can with double coverage, it's just riskier. We got lucky there IMO. The Safety lost the ball, moved AWAY from it, and ended up falling down and taking the CB out while Richardson makes a really nice play on the ball. You've got to take a couple shots. Might get a PI call, might have the WR make a play, might be a incompletion, and it even might be a INT. But if you limit the return, it's just a punt.

 

As to the WR's.............sadly, I think in the case of Doctson that is the case. Unless someone blows a coverage, it's really hard for him to get seperation.

 

 

41 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

Each game I can look at and say I 'understand' why the long ball didnt connect... but we need to see more of it.  NO isn't gonna play this game with us.  Brees is going to attack us, and he's got game film from a year ago that will show him how to beat us quickly.  

 

Yep.

 

41 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

I don't necessarily use a 1st on a WR either depending on what's there.  I have other 'druthers' that i'd look at, but my point was that looking at our offense.... WR and LG are the two biggest weaknesses.  Defensively, there's not much of a need that would warrant a 1st rounder... so if Brandon Scherff 2.0 isnt available and a WR with a no. 1 grade is... I'd say take the WR.  

 

Agreed. I just don't have much faith in the FO drafting a WR high. It seems like we just miss and miss and miss at that position. Seriously, when was the last time we took a WR in the first 2 rounds that actually worked out? We're talking Arthur Monk.

 

41 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

Starting to agree with you on Doc being 'soft'.  He's not showing me that winning is the most important thing to him.  Of course i'm speaking purely speculative because I've never met the guy, or have any idea how he is in the locker room... but he NEVER talks to the media, and you never see emotional breakaways from him.  If I'm in the locker room, he needs to show me he's frustrated that he's not getting the ball.  That may fall on Gruden or Alex, or he needs to get pissed off that he's not getting open.  He may have done it behind the scenes, who knows, but he's also losing a lot of steam in his career here.  Something's gotta give, and sitting back watching the world go by aint gonna help.  Time to pull up your big boy pants and make plays.  

 

Let me further define soft (at least my definition in this case), because you don't have to be a "rah rah" guy. I'm the opposite of a "rah rah" guy. I don't do the speeches, I don't throw stuff, I don't yell and scream. I'm a introvert. However, I have a personal "standard" that I have, for whatever it might be, and I take it VERY seriously. When I don't play up to my potential, I am very critical of myself, and will bust my ass to get better. I don't know if Josh has this. I also, when I played, was willing to do whatever ti took to win. if that means going over the middle and getting plowed under, I was still going to catch that ball, get up, and just walk back to the huddle. And maybe glare at someone.............just to let them know, that they had nothing for me. I think he worries too much about the hit, about routes, about a lot of little things he probably needs to do. I also think he's afraid of getting hurt.

 

41 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

Youre' 100% right about falling behind and it makes me nervous.  We can't expect to score 24 points in the 1st half of every game.  We're going to get into dogfights and it makes me really nervous.  I fear that this team will go .500 because half the games are like week 3... half are like week 2.  

 

Agreed.

[bird_1972]

12 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

Just curious as to why you think the playbook is closed and why you think Jay is holding Alex back?  I'm not saying you're wrong... I just wonder where you're coming up with that thought?  Has it been reported?  

 

Nope. Just my armchair amateur assessment. 

 

Just felt like the offense was a lot more creative with Kirk. That might be just bias on my part or might be a real phenomenon (and possibly related to the fact that Alex is still new to the Skins).

[Morneblade]

6 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I will suggest by reading Alex at the line, we can see a lack of audibles etc. 

 

I have never liked that every single play for a QB needs to be radio'd in, here in the modern era. I suspect the record will show QBs allowed to make a play call immediately after another, can exploit a defense better than a coach can. A coach has his head down in his playbook while the QB and WR are dying for the exact same play call to exploit something that it takes a coach a new series to try to exploit. By then, the DC has adjusted, and the door has closed.

 

First 3 games in the system with almost no preseasons work. It's doubtful Alex, even as a smart vet, is going to know the playbook well enough to be able to do much of that this early on.

[RandyHolt]

3 hours ago, Morneblade said:

 

First 3 games in the system with almost no preseasons work. It's doubtful Alex, even as a smart vet, is going to know the playbook well enough to be able to do much of that this early on.

 

I will point to Kirk here for many years under Gruden, as more telling proof as to why we haven't seen it, nor will we. Jay likes control. I think its why we don't see hurry up.

 

All things aside, I think its laughable to think a 37 year old respected vet QB couldn't call his own plays for a series. If Alex doesn't know a handful of run and pass plays after 9 months.... I call bunk.  OCs and head coaches seized control of play calling back in the 1980's (right when I regrettably sold my Telex stock), and they never gave it back.

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by RandyHolt

[Morneblade]

15 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

I will point to Kirk here for many years under Gruden, as more telling proof as to why we haven't seen it, nor will we. Jay likes control. I think its why we don't see hurry up.

 

Kirk changed plays. In fact Gruden was the one that said Kirk got the team out of a lot of running plays, when he was asked why we got away from the rush last year. As for hurry up, There are not a bunch of teams that do that unless they are down, it's not part of their regular offense. Now, I'm not going to disagree that we should not run it at other times, but I don't think it's because Gruden is a control freak, or at least a symptom of that.

 

15 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

All things aside, I think its laughable to think a 37 year old respected vet QB couldn't call his own plays for a series. If Alex doesn't know a handful of run and pass plays after 10 months.... I call bunk.  OCs and head coaches seized control of play calling back in the 1980's (right when I regrettably sold my Telex stock), and they never gave it back.

 

 

 

While you think it's laughable, I don't. I don't think a guys that has a very limited time, with basically zero preseason work, is going to feel all that comfortable with Gruden and his "I never met a play I didn't like" playbook.

 

Now, I don't know enough about Smith to know how comfortable he is with changing the play call in general (AS fans/enemies would know more than I). But coming into a new system, not having guys like Reed and Thompson available for most if not all of it, and not getting many live action reps, I probably would not be that comfortable changing plays. Because it's one thing to change from a run to a pass play, but if you have say, 60 run plays, making sure you get a run play that is going to actually get you positive yardage, and that you actually have the personnel to run it on the field. As opposed to one that gets snuffed out, and then you get to explain why you changed into that.

[Koolblue13]

Shoulda kept Grant and ditched Doctson. 

 

Fight me.

[NeverSurrender]

6 hours ago, bird_1972 said:

 

Yup, fool me once - shame on you. 

 

Fool me twice - shame on me.

A fool man cant get fooled again

Honestly Im thinking there is an open competition with Doctson, Harris (assuming he can stay healthy) and Robert Davis for the #1 spot next year.  

 

Harris- I really thought he had a shot at overtaking Doctson for the spot in preseason but the guy just needs a run of good health.  Honestly I would feel better with either of them over Doctson and I have been on his side for a while.....He needs to start producing...NOW

[RandyHolt]

4 hours ago, Morneblade said:

 

 

While you think it's laughable, I don't.....

 

Good post. i didn't know Kirk was allowed to change plays last year. It wasn't very long ago, that the only audible for a game was a fade.  To a short WR IIRC.  It was exposed that he only had 1 audible available, as he was forced to go to it 2 plays in a row, a year or 2 back.

 

Alex could draw up plays in the dirt if needed. Any NFL QB could. But the potential plays on any given week are very limited, as are potential audibles. The great Bill Parcells was widely known for scoffing at the idea of needing to practice and perfect a large volume of plays.  I cannot remember the exact number but his teams only practiced / actually used maybe 25-35 plays the week of games. Dare I think many if not all other coaches are forced to heavily purge their playbook weekly. As long as the QB gets the reps, he should be good. To me, the challenge is reading the D, and coaches being willing to watch his play call get scrapped.

Edited September 26, 2018 by RandyHolt

[dyst]

Doctson is a complete mystery and so far he is a complete waste of a roster spot. We can't blame Kirk anymore. With Alex here, it was a fresh start but Doctson still can't take that next step. I don't know if it's his draft position, or this elusive potential that keeps him around but what exactly does he do for this team? Is he drawing the best corner, or double coverage? I have no idea, at least that would be one positive. This guy must be killer in practice for them to continue giving him a chance because it's certainly not his in-game ability. At least not from a casual observer. It seems like he has only one play assigned to him....deep pass. Can he not run slants or outs/crossing patterns? Something to use his big build against he defender and actually contribute. Just so damn frustrating. Either use him (right) or get him out of here and find someone who can catch 2 passes a game.