Redskins receiving corp is beginning to shape up

[mistertim]

40 minutes ago, dyst said:

Doctson is a complete mystery and so far he is a complete waste of a roster spot. We can't blame Kirk anymore. With Alex here, it was a fresh start but Doctson still can't take that next step. I don't know if it's his draft position, or this elusive potential that keeps him around but what exactly does he do for this team? Is he drawing the best corner, or double coverage? I have no idea, at least that would be one positive. This guy must be killer in practice for them to continue giving him a chance because it's certainly not his in-game ability. At least not from a casual observer. It seems like he has only one play assigned to him....deep pass. Can he not run slants or outs/crossing patterns? Something to use his big build against he defender and actually contribute. Just so damn frustrating. Either use him (right) or get him out of here and find someone who can catch 2 passes a game.

 

I agree it's frustrating and I'm sure Doctson has some blame for this or that reason (hard to be sure if it's no separation or what), but he also can't Jedi mind trick Jay and Alex into throwing the ball to him. As was noted earlier, he was targeted 3 times in the GB game and he had 1 catch and 2 PI calls. To be honest, our WRs really aren't getting a ton of work in general, which isn't very surprising with Smith as QB.

[sempre_victrix]

The problem is our O-Line can't pass block this year. Smith has had no real pocket to throw out of. Center & LG are not putting up much of a resistance to the rush.

[Morneblade]

12 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Good post. i didn't know Kirk was allowed to change plays last year. It wasn't very long ago, that the only audible for a game was a fade.  To a short WR IIRC.  It was exposed that he only had 1 audible available, as he was forced to go to it 2 plays in a row, a year or 2 back.

 

Alex could draw up plays in the dirt if needed. Any NFL QB could. But the potential plays on any given week are very limited, as are potential audibles. The great Bill Parcells was widely known for scoffing at the idea of needing to practice and perfect a large volume of plays.  I cannot remember the exact number but his teams only practiced / actually used maybe 25-35 plays the week of games. Dare I think many if not all other coaches are forced to heavily purge their playbook weekly. As long as the QB gets the reps, he should be good. To me, the challenge is reading the D, and coaches being willing to watch his play call get scrapped.

 

While that might be Bill Parcells (a defensive coach) I don't think that is Jay Gruden. If anything, Gruden has the problem of not being able to cut plays. he is apparently adding more plays now with Smith.

https://redskinswire.usatoday.com/2018/07/31/with-smith-on-board-with-redskins-gruden-opens-more-of-his-playbook/

"While RGIII had an impressive skill set, it wasn’t one that was conducive to running Gruden’s offensive scheme (three and five-step drops in the pocket, progression reads and throws based on timing). Cousins did have the ability to run the coach’s system but was young and Gruden took his time developing the Michigan product. This meant that even in 2017, the coach did not use all of his plays.

Now the Redskins have Smith on board and, even after only a few days of their 2018 training camp, the multitude of new plays Gruden is calling during team drills is noticeable"

[skinny21]

While I love having numerous options depending on personnel, defensive schemes, etc... I’m an even bigger fan of perfecting execution.  A new qb, young/new receivers, a new back, new C, and so forth makes it even more difficult.  That’s one of the things I loved about Gibbs - running the same plays from various looks allows the chance (or a better chance) to perfect those plays.  And by ‘perfect’, I’m talking, in part, about the nuances - selling routes with added subtlety, looking off defenders, getting used to running plays against a variety of schemes.  

 

To be fair, I’m sure Jay isn’t negligent in this aspect. I can’t see him saying “let’s practice this a few times and move on”... but still.  

[RandyHolt]

38 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

While that might be Bill Parcells (a defensive coach) I don't think that is Jay Gruden. If anything, Gruden has the problem of not being able to cut plays. he is apparently adding more plays now with Smith.

https://redskinswire.usatoday.com/2018/07/31/with-smith-on-board-with-redskins-gruden-opens-more-of-his-playbook/

"While RGIII had an impressive skill set, it wasn’t one that was conducive to running Gruden’s offensive scheme (three and five-step drops in the pocket, progression reads and throws based on timing). Cousins did have the ability to run the coach’s system but was young and Gruden took his time developing the Michigan product. This meant that even in 2017, the coach did not use all of his plays.

Now the Redskins have Smith on board and, even after only a few days of their 2018 training camp, the multitude of new plays Gruden is calling during team drills is noticeable"

 

Makes sense. Adding a vet QB, a coach is wise to consider using the plays he runs best. And, one who has intimate knowledge of other coaches best plays.  Andy Reid is widely accepted to be a very strong offensive coach... ok for the first 58 minutes of regular season games.

[Going Commando]

12 hours ago, mistertim said:

I agree it's frustrating and I'm sure Doctson has some blame for this or that reason (hard to be sure if it's no separation or what), but he also can't Jedi mind trick Jay and Alex into throwing the ball to him. As was noted earlier, he was targeted 3 times in the GB game and he had 1 catch and 2 PI calls. To be honest, our WRs really aren't getting a ton of work in general, which isn't very surprising with Smith as QB. 

 

Yep.  What we're going through now is similar to what San Francisco went through with Crabtree.  It's not a coincidence that his big breakout in 2012 happened after Kaepernick replaced Smith as the starter.

 

There is no point in spending big money or high draft picks on flankers or split ends when Alex Smith is your QB.  He can not throw the ball to the numbers from the pocket.  He will throw it to the low receiver on high-lows almost every time.  It's just who he is as a passer and decision maker.

 

The only way you can get good production from a wide receiver in an Alex Smith offense is with a slot guy and by scheming in a ton of opportunities for a guy on the outside: screens and moving pockets that will shorten Alex's throwing lanes to the boundary.  We might as well try and trade Doctson right now because his opportunities are not going to improve.  We'd get more use from a run blocker on the outside.  We don't need to spend a lot of money for decoys.

[mistertim]

30 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Yep.  What we're going through now is similar to what San Francisco went through with Crabtree.  It's not a coincidence that his big breakout in 2012 happened after Kaepernick replaced Smith as the starter.

 

There is no point in spending big money or high draft picks on flankers or split ends when Alex Smith is your QB.  He can not throw the ball to the numbers from the pocket.  He will throw it to the low receiver on high-lows almost every time.  It's just who he is as a passer and decision maker.

 

The only way you can get good production from a wide receiver in an Alex Smith offense is with a slot guy and by scheming in a ton of opportunities for a guy on the outside: screens and moving pockets that will shorten Alex's throwing lanes to the boundary.  We might as well try and trade Doctson right now because his opportunities are not going to improve.  We'd get more use from a run blocker on the outside.  We don't need to spend a lot of money for decoys.

 

Agreed, and this is one of the reasons that I don't think it would make much difference at all if they brought Dez in and why I think he'd quickly become a malcontent. Dez also can't Jedi mind trick Smith into throwing the ball to him but what he CAN, and probably would, do is get pissed and complain about it. Doc isn't getting the targets for the most part but at least he isn't ****ing about it and becoming a distraction. 

 

Doctson has a certain skill set and unfortunately his skill set is mostly the opposite of what you'd need in a WR to make him highly productive in an Alex Smith led offense. You put him out there with a Wentz or Luck type QB who tend to be more aggressive going down field and take more risks and you'd have something I think.

[Spaceman Spiff]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

Agreed, and this is one of the reasons that I don't think it would make much difference at all if they brought Dez in and why I think he'd quickly become a malcontent. Dez also can't Jedi mind trick Smith into throwing the ball to him but what he CAN, and probably would, do is get pissed and complain about it. Doc isn't getting the targets for the most part but at least he isn't ****ing about it and becoming a distraction. 

 

Doctson has a certain skill set and unfortunately his skill set is mostly the opposite of what you'd need in a WR to make him highly productive in an Alex Smith led offense. You put him out there with a Wentz or Luck type QB who tend to be more aggressive going down field and take more risks and you'd have something I think.

 

Yeah, it's called disappearing and unproductive.  

 

I've been patient with Doctson but barring a major turnaround, he's a bust.  A first round draft pick WR shouldn't just have a specific skill set that only works with a certain type of QB, he should be able to work with anyone.  He should be able to be a precise route runner and be able to catch a 5 yard out to move the sticks but he should also be able to run a fly route and track a deep pass.  Yeah, he might be better at one thing than another, but I'm so tired of making excuses for this guy and seeing excuses made on his behalf.  He sucks.  He might get better, he might turn it around but as it stands right now he sucks.

 

 

[mistertim]

14 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Yeah, it's called disappearing and unproductive.  

 

I've been patient with Doctson but barring a major turnaround, he's a bust.  A first round draft pick WR shouldn't just have a specific skill set that only works with a certain type of QB, he should be able to work with anyone.  He should be able to be a precise route runner and be able to catch a 5 yard out to move the sticks but he should also be able to run a fly route and track a deep pass.  Yeah, he might be better at one thing than another, but I'm so tired of making excuses for this guy and seeing excuses made on his behalf.  He sucks.  He might get better, he might turn it around but as it stands right now he sucks.

 

 

 

Cute, but you know what I mean. Pretty much all receivers have certain skill sets that make them generally better at x things over y things. I never said Doctson couldn't run other routes but his skill set (using his positioning, body control, leaping ability to make catches) makes him more productive and better used in certain ways. The reddit link with the breakdown that was posted earlier made that argument as well. 

 

As far as whether or not the ball not being thrown to him much is an excuse and is more his fault or due to other factors we don't really know for sure. However, we know for sure that our WRs in general are not getting the number of touches they have in the past. As I've said I'm disappointed that he hasn't been involved more and am on the fence about him but I don't see how you can already label him a bust 3 games into his second year playing while being on a team with a QB who, compared to others in the league, tends to utilize his WRs less.

 

Yes he had his drop issues last year but he did show off some of his skills at times and had over 500 yards with 6 TDs, which isn't too bad for WR in his first year playing. I'm guessing there's a reason that Gruden hasn't cut bait with him...maybe he knows that it isn't all on Doctson that he isn't getting the targets. 

[NeverSurrender]

There is no reason to freak out about Doctson for a ton of reasons

1.) Were 2-1 and In first place

2.) The offence has been moving the ball very well at times without using him.

3.)  Hes cheap

4.) He will be cheap again if he remains at this production level.

5.) There is the chance that he gets going and from the looks of it, he could be a VERY tough match up if so. 

5.) He is worth nothing on the trading block so why not keep giving him chances as log as we are winning games?

 

Yes I want more but honestly I dont care as long as were WINNING...... If we start losing and its obvious we need a receiver to step up then sure... lets freak out.

[NeverSurrender]

I also think there are things we could do to get him involved earlier like screens, end arounds or slants to him that could wake him up a bit.  Deliberatly target him early on short passes to try to get some YAC against favorable matchups.  A simple 10 yard back shoulder on the sideline is a very safe play against any type of defender.   

[Spaceman Spiff]

53 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Cute, but you know what I mean. Pretty much all receivers have certain skill sets that make them generally better at x things over y things. I never said Doctson couldn't run other routes but his skill set (using his positioning, body control, leaping ability to make catches) makes him more productive and better used in certain ways. The reddit link with the breakdown that was posted earlier made that argument as well. 

 

As far as whether or not the ball not being thrown to him much is an excuse and is more his fault or due to other factors we don't really know for sure. However, we know for sure that our WRs in general are not getting the number of touches they have in the past. As I've said I'm disappointed that he hasn't been involved more and am on the fence about him but I don't see how you can already label him a bust 3 games into his second year playing while being on a team with a QB who, compared to others in the league, tends to utilize his WRs less.

 

Yes he had his drop issues last year but he did show off some of his skills at times and had over 500 yards with 6 TDs, which isn't too bad for WR in his first year playing. I'm guessing there's a reason that Gruden hasn't cut bait with him...maybe he knows that it isn't all on Doctson that he isn't getting the targets. 

 

Yeah, those are his skills but they're not on display often.  Couldn't haul that one in to win the KC game last year, couldn't do it in the Colts game two weeks ago.  I'm struggling to think of a time where he's won a 50/50 ball for a TD.  There was the big gain against the Raiders last year that warrants mentioning and one against Dallas, so I am not being totally biased here, I guess that's some evidence but I would have liked to have seen some progression so far this year, wouldn't you?

 

You are correct, our WRs aren't producing much but if Doctson is a true 1st round talent then he should be the exception.  I made the disclaimer that barring a major turnaround, he is a bust.  I'm not writing him off just yet, in other words.  He's not performing like a 1st round pick should, I don't think I am wrong about that.  Smith likes his tight ends and has played with some good/great ones but he will throw to receivers that are good, Tyreek Hill had 75 catches for over 1000 yards last year.  As I said, I am tired of making excuses for him.  Smith might not be the best QB to throw to receivers but it's not like he hasn't before.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Spaceman Spiff

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

You put him out there with a Wentz or Luck type QB who tend to be more aggressive going down field and take more risks and you'd have something I think.

 

He'd be good in the Chief's offense now that Mahomes is their QB.  They've gotten way more vertical.  Mahomes is a gunslinger with a cannon arm.  He throws the high option on the high-low while on the move before the receiver even separates even when the low option is open.  That is the kind of quarterbacking you won't see from Smith.  And it's what you need to truly take advantage of Doctson's ability to be a vertical threat.

[Going Commando]

The only reason why I'm hesitant to give up on Doctson in this offense is because we still need a red zone target.  Even if he's not going to help us move the chains, we still need someone who can go up and pull down a fade when we're up against the goal line.  He's the only one on the roster who fits that bill.

[bird_1972]

22 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

The only reason why I'm hesitant to give up on Doctson in this offense is because we still need a red zone target.  Even if he's not going to help us move the chains, we still need someone who can go up and pull down a fade when we're up against the goal line.  He's the only one on the roster who fits that bill.

 

Jordan Reed?

[RandyHolt]

It's a perfect storm and Josh is getting nailed. Carrying the weight of 1st round expectations often leads to disappointment. Alex Smith and a low volume passing offense is not going to do anything significant to help him meet those lofty 1st round expectations. That is really what this is all about. Such is life after a win. We tear into someone or something thinking it's best for the team to fix it... now!!!1!  I have been guilty of it myself.

 

Richardson caught one pass last week.  One. On what looked like broken double coverage which required Smith to throw it away from coverage. Overall? Our shiny new toy only has 9 receptions this year.  Crowder, our preferred volume receiver, only has 9 catches - this after an off year. I just feel like people are being a little too quick to pile on Doctson, while turning a blind eye to a lackluster performance from all the other WRs.

 

Salary should have a say in expectations, not just draft position. As should wins. Wins should temper individuals expectations for 1 week. Maybe he was a decoy most of the day or season, while Alex has other options. Maybe Jay fears he will get injured if he targets him too heavily early.  Maybe he is healing up from something minor.  Maybe Smith doesn't have the comfort/trust with him yet. Who the hell knows.

 

Sure - Smith's rep is as a dink and dunker, and that is not really Josh's game. He is a lanky finesse outside jump ball type. He is not Pierre Garcon.  My own expectations on him were lowered as soon as I saw he hadn't bulked up this offseason. We have bigger fish in the frying pan. Our OL is already littered with injuries. Let's get back to piling on the OL. That is really where an awful lot of the work is done to get a WR open, right?  No DB can cover forever, not even Josh Doctson.

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by RandyHolt

[goskins10]

6 minutes ago, bird_1972 said:

 

Jordan Reed?

 

You need more than one RZ target. In 2016 our RZ production went down in large part because they took Reed away when he was in. He deserves at least a few more games. Also while he did not catch anything he did draw a few PI calls, including one in the EZ (or close). He was being mugged the whole way just so they would not get beat. 

 

He needs to get it going but not time to give up by any means. 

[Morneblade]

33 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

The only reason why I'm hesitant to give up on Doctson in this offense is because we still need a red zone target.  Even if he's not going to help us move the chains, we still need someone who can go up and pull down a fade when we're up against the goal line.  He's the only one on the roster who fits that bill.

 

Don't really agree with this. We have now 3 guys on the roster at WR that are 6'2" or 6'3" not named Doctson. Harris, Quick, and Floyd. Harris and Quick know the offense, and Floyd probably knows how to run a fade. And I think Quick and Harris especially are better when it comes to being physical.

 

Then we have, as was already mentioned, Jordan Reed. Doctson might be better at it, but he's not the only option.

 

 

Besides I like getting rushing TD's from inside the 5. I had almost forgotten what that looked like from a Redskins team.

[OVCChairman]

2 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

Don't really agree with this. We have now 3 guys on the roster at WR that are 6'2" or 6'3" not named Doctson. Harris, Quick, and Floyd. Harris and Quick know the offense, and Floyd probably knows how to run a fade. And I think Quick and Harris especially are better when it comes to being physical.

 

Then we have, as was already mentioned, Jordan Reed. Doctson might be better at it, but he's not the only option.

 

 

Besides I like getting rushing TD's from inside the 5. I had almost forgotten what that looked like from a Redskins team.

 

 

Call me crazy, but I wouldn't mind seeing what Floyd can do in a game.  He'll have the next 2 weeks to prep, he's going to be facing a below average defense, and we're going to need to score points to keep up.  I say we give him an actual shot and see what he's got left in the tank... Right now, it's not exactly a downgrade.... 

[bird_1972]

59 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

Call me crazy, but I wouldn't mind seeing what Floyd can do in a game.  He'll have the next 2 weeks to prep, he's going to be facing a below average defense, and we're going to need to score points to keep up.  I say we give him an actual shot and see what he's got left in the tank... Right now, it's not exactly a downgrade.... 

 

Any chance Harris suits up for the Saints game? Would be a great time for him to break out.

[OVCChairman]

27 minutes ago, bird_1972 said:

 

Any chance Harris suits up for the Saints game? Would be a great time for him to break out.

 

 

I would hope so... a 6-8 week concussion would be extremely worrisome. 

[bird_1972]

1 minute ago, OVCChairman said:

I would hope so... a 6-8 week concussion would be extremely worrisome. 

 

Agree.

 

Any idea if he was active vs. Green Bay?

[NeverSurrender]

30 minutes ago, bird_1972 said:

 

Any chance Harris suits up for the Saints game? Would be a great time for him to break out.

I had high hopes for him going into the season.  I know he played against the Packers.  Not much though.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 minute ago, bird_1972 said:

 

Agree.

 

Any idea if he was active vs. Green Bay?

 

He was active and he played 9 snaps.

[bird_1972]

3 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

He was active and he played 9 snaps.

 

Really good sign.

 

Hopefully he's working hard these two weeks to get ready for the Saints. 

 

We are gonna need him.