Redskins receiving corp is beginning to shape up

[skinny21]

Doctson went against Peterson, then against a D that was intent on not allowing a deep passing game (in a game we had few sustained drives and could run the ball to force the D to adjust), and then went against Williams.  

On top of that, he’s playing with qb that isn’t big on throwing contested deep balls.  

 

Now, having said that, besides a handful (maybe two) of impressive grabs - jump balls, diving catches and pluck from the turf types -  Doctson has not shown us much at all.  He seems to lack all three things that lead to separation - speed, explosiveness and route running acumen.  I would be completely fine with moving Harris to the starting role to see if he’s a better fit.  

[HogsVa7]

With three games in we can’t give up on Doctson. Should he get more separation than what he’s showing..... yeah he should. Even though he didn’t catch any passes yesterday he was targeted and he got pass interference I think twice. If the penalty’s never happens and let’s say he drops both of them then yeah I’m going to worry about it but for now I’m not. There was a play where he was wide open down the field, but Alex didn’t see him. With this offense with the weapons we have and AP and CT it’s going to be whatever keeps drives going. That’s how Alex works. It’s not Doctson’s fault he got PI in the end zone, apparently he was doing something right. We have a running game now and AP is 5th in the league in rushing and hopefully it stays that way. We only threw 20 times I believe and stuck with the running game. Our defense has forced turnovers and is playing in a way to make us win games. Doctson had a big game against the Saints last year and let’s see if he can get it going. I’m not trying to stick up for him, but let’s ride it out and see what happens. With Alex now the offense goes where he takes us and he’s going to manage the game and do whatever helps us win. With the two out of the first three games so far we scored over 21 points in the first half. We played conservative in the second half but stuck with the running game. Just let it play out with Doctson and go from there. 

[justice98]

2 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

 

That is the on the field Dez.   What about the off the field.

 

But again without knowing our playbook, I am hesitant to deem any WR added to our roster mid season, reliable.  WRs just don't seem to change teams mid-season often, and become an instant productive starter.  Can anyone name the last 3 WRs to change teams mid season, and became a productive starter? I will take even 1 in the past 3 years.

 

I suspect Jay puts a premium on WRs that know the playbook. I think Josh Doctson is running the routes he is asked to thus far. 

 

Not technically mid-season, but 6 days before the season last year, Jermaine Kearse got traded to the Jets.  He went on to have a productive year.  Had 7 catches the first game, not knowing the playbook.  In theory, if Dez came in on a bye week, he'd have more prep with the playbook than Kearse got.  Only difference being Kearse was fresh off a training camp. so he could hit the ground running.

[RandyHolt]

33 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

Not technically mid-season, but 6 days before the season last year, Jermaine Kearse got traded to the Jets.  He went on to have a productive year.  Had 7 catches the first game, not knowing the playbook.  In theory, if Dez came in on a bye week, he'd have more prep with the playbook than Kearse got.  Only difference being Kearse was fresh off a training camp. so he could hit the ground running.

 

Thanks for sharing Kearse. Of course trades are rare and mid season even more. A FA WR added mid season just seems to not get many snaps. Heck our callups from the practice squad barely get action and they presume know the playbook. IMO it's more about injuries dictating snaps, than a lack of skill / production on the roster. It wouldn't surprise Jay or Bruce if Doctson cannot hang in this league and they should have addressed it in August, if true. We tried a youth movement this year and the kids got hurt. Add Richardson to that. So the calls for needing help at WR became louder.

 

We needed help because we lost 2 WRs for the year. Fans chimed in we need to dump Doctson because we are growing impatient. It's too soon, and there is horrible timing on top of it, WRT to the injuries. Doctson is a healthy body.

 

I was thinking the same thing about the bye week timing, and perhaps that is partly why we brought in Perriman and Floyd when we did.  Tick tock tick tock on adding a Dez to use the bye week to its greatest extent in learning the playbook. Of course, I am fairly certain in saying Dez thinks he doesn't need much time at all to be our lead WR.

Edited September 24, 2018 by RandyHolt

[Morneblade]

59 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Fun Fact. Josh Doctson has been targeted more than Jamison Crowder.  And has gotten us more first downs.

 

But I don't think Doctson has been a big part of the 3 game plans. It's been all about getting the run game going.  Jay probably cares more about his run blocking yesterday, than lack of a reception.  CT only had 1 catch yesterday. Game plans, matchups, and game flow dictate if and when a WR gets their targets. 

 

Josh is in the dog house right now because he short armed a ball 2 weeks ago, and because he hasn't been productive to the expectations we formed on him because he was a first rounder.

 

More fun facts. Even with less targets, Crowder has almost twice as many catches, close to 2-1 in yards, and more TD's

Davis has one less catch........................with 9 fewer targets.

Josh Doctson is averaging 16 yards a game.

Josh Doctson is catching balls at 38%.

Josh Doctson is the worst WR on the team in every category there is, except PI calls.

 

Put me in coach.

[Koolblue13]

Doctson needs to ride pine. He blows. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 Scott Jennings Retweeted

JP Finlay‏Verified account @JPFinlayNBCS 31m31 minutes ago

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Floyd says the bye week comes at a good time for him. Let’s him grind and learn the playbook. Believes he can still go out and make plays

0 replies2 retweets13 likes

 

[Morneblade]

37 minutes ago, RedskinsVa7 said:

With three games in we can’t give up on Doctson. Should he get more separation than what he’s showing..... yeah he should. Even though he didn’t catch any passes yesterday he was targeted and he got pass interference I think twice. If the penalty’s never happens and let’s say he drops both of them then yeah I’m going to worry about it but for now I’m not. There was a play where he was wide open down the field, but Alex didn’t see him. With this offense with the weapons we have and AP and CT it’s going to be whatever keeps drives going. That’s how Alex works. It’s not Doctson’s fault he got PI in the end zone, apparently he was doing something right. We have a running game now and AP is 5th in the league in rushing and hopefully it stays that way. We only threw 20 times I believe and stuck with the running game. Our defense has forced turnovers and is playing in a way to make us win games. Doctson had a big game against the Saints last year and let’s see if he can get it going. I’m not trying to stick up for him, but let’s ride it out and see what happens. With Alex now the offense goes where he takes us and he’s going to manage the game and do whatever helps us win. With the two out of the first three games so far we scored over 21 points in the first half. We played conservative in the second half but stuck with the running game. Just let it play out with Doctson and go from there. 

 

If we were ONLY talking about the 3 games this season, you'd have a point.

 

 

 

 

But we ain't. This goes back to last season, where he started all 16 games.

#2 on the team with targets.

#4 in catches

Last in catch % (45%, terrible)

 

This trend goes well back. He's not stepping up. He's not getting open, He's dropping balls. And I hear he sucks as a blocker (I can't confirm that though)

 

So, I see zero reason to keep going with Doctson. Give Mo Harris a chance, who has done MUCH more in very limited reps than Doctson ever has.

 

[RandyHolt]

Ride the pine for who? Quick was recently cut.  Harris is seemingly still hurt/healing. 

 

Fun Fact. Floyd had 10 receptions last year.  At least Doctson had 6 TDs. 

 

IMO Doctson needs to bulk up to take the next step in his development. Only with added girth do I expect the confidence to work more inside. Those areas of the field will lend to a greater catch rate. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by RandyHolt

[megared]

2 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Ride the pine for who? Quick was recently cut.  Harris is seemingly still hurt/healing. 

 

Fun Fact. Floyd had 10 receptions last year.  At least Doctson had 5 TDs. 

 

IMO Doctson needs to bulk up to take the next step in his development. Only with added girth do I expect the confidence to work more inside. Those areas of the field will lend to a greater catch rate. 

 

Vernon Davis.  I'd run 2 TE sets more, if we're talking current roster.  

 

And bulking up isn't going to help him, if he's already rarely getting separation.  Without film, it's difficult to say...but I think it is safe to say that the guy is probably never going to live up to expectations at this point, unless there's a phantom injury we aren't privy to.

[Morneblade]

6 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Ride the pine for who? Quick was recently cut.  Harris is seemingly still hurt/healing. 

 

Yes

 

6 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Fun Fact. Floyd had 10 receptions last year.  At least Doctson had 6 TDs. 

 

On 17 targets. 58% That number is like a pipe dream for Doctson.

 

6 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

IMO Doctson needs to bulk up to take the next step in his development. Only with added girth do I expect the confidence to work more inside. Those areas of the field will lend to a greater catch rate. 

 

I'll believe it when I see it.

[RandyHolt]

11 minutes ago, megared said:

 

Vernon Davis.  I'd run 2 TE sets more, if we're talking current roster.  

 

And bulking up isn't going to help him, if he's already rarely getting separation.  Without film, it's difficult to say...but I think it is safe to say that the guy is probably never going to live up to expectations at this point, unless there's a phantom injury we aren't privy to.

 

Good point, But Davis and Thompson need to have their pitch counts monitored, IMO. Dare I think Reed as well.  Bulking up would at least give Josh the strength to muscle/man up and more effectively use his body to shield defenders. Or, the confidence to be more willing to try. 

 

Wait, have we determined he is not getting separation? Defenses play man or they play zone. I think he has faced some tough corners in week 1 and 3 who spent a lot of time in man. Indy we faced a soft zone.  But make no mistake, he is not the precision route runner type like Ryan Grant. He is a big lanky jump ball sideline type, and really has never been anything else. Scoring 6 TD last year is nothing to brush aside. This with a QB that basically had to teach himself to trust he can throw fiddy fiddy jump balls and looked all the part. Kirk's end zone fades were almost all facepalm grade.

 

Damn if I don't love seeing Vernon Davis running in the open field almost every single time. His RB grade moves make defenders look like morans. He's no spring chicken but looks like it in the open field.

Edited September 24, 2018 by RandyHolt

[megared]

7 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Wait, have we determined he is not getting separation? Defenses play man or they play zone. I think he has faced some tough corners in week 1 and 3 who spent a lot of time in man. Indy we faced a soft zone.  But make no mistake, he is not the precision route runner type like Ryan Grant. He is a big lanky jump ball sideline type, and really has never been anything else. Scoring 6 TD last year is nothing to brush aside. This with a QB that basically had to teach himself to trust he can throw fiddy fiddy jump balls and looked all the part. Kirk's end zone fades were almost all facepalm grade.

 

At this point, with where he was drafted, he should be able read coverages pre-snap to understand what he needs to do to get separation via man or know where to go to find a soft spot in a zone.  I find it real hard to believe that Jay is designing these plays that can only get him targeted ~5 times a game. 

 

So, my guess is that he's not getting open due to route running.  I think we can all agree that Doctson should at least be capable of running a portion of the route tree at an average level.  And if he's just a possession type receiver, why are we never going to him in critical down situations?

[Commander -JB-]

6 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I don't get this narrative.  He had 69 catches for 838 yards last year and 6 touchdowns.  Yeah, he's not a gamebreaker like he used to be.  If by saying he's over the hill you mean he's not a pro bowl receiver, then I'd agree.

 

There's no doubt he'd be better than Doctson in any offense.  

Doctson had 6 TD’s last season.  What’s your point?

[mistertim]

Wait, how do we know any of this about Doctson? I mean that seriously...are we just assuming he doesn't run good routes or can't get separation or beat press coverage, or has anyone actually done some analysis of the All-22 film? I'm actually thinking of buying it and going through and focusing on Doctson just to see what I notice, but I'll certainly admit that I'm not an expert so it would just be my amateur opinion. 

[megared]

20 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Wait, how do we know any of this about Doctson? I mean that seriously...are we just assuming he doesn't run good routes or can't get separation or beat press coverage, or has anyone actually done some analysis of the All-22 film? I'm actually thinking of buying it and going through and focusing on Doctson just to see what I notice, but I'll certainly admit that I'm not an expert so it would just be my amateur opinion. 

 

Quote

Despite playing 88 percent of the snaps on offense through three games, Doctson has accounted for just 14 percent of the team target total while catching five of 13 passes for 48 yards.

 

CBS Sports: Redskins Josh Doctson Held Without Target

 

I'm guessing as well...haven't viewed the All-22 film either.  But what other explanation could there be?    

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, megared said:

 

 

CBS Sports: Redskins Josh Doctson Held Without Target

 

I'm guessing as well...haven't viewed the All-22 film either.  But what other explanation could there be?    

 

Right, but that's all just assumption. That doesn't mean it's an incorrect assumption, but still an assumption. I think I'll try to check out some All-22 and see what it looks like to me (again, total amateur).

[Spaceman Spiff]

1 hour ago, -JB- said:

Doctson had 6 TD’s last season.  What’s your point?

 

That an old, supposedly broken ass washed up receiver can produce just as well as the Ghost of Josh Doctson?

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

That an old, supposedly broken ass washed up receiver can produce just as well as the Ghost of Josh Doctson?

 

While wanting 10 times more money for a 1 year contract, and probably providing 10 times the headache. 

[megared]

4 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Right, but that's all just assumption. That doesn't mean it's an incorrect assumption, but still an assumption. I think I'll try to check out some All-22 and see what it looks like to me (again, total amateur).

 

Here's a pretty good Reddit discussion on someone that analyzed some tape of him:

 

Reddit: TheHeintzel Analysis The Not-So Curious Case of Josh Doctson

 

Here's another one:  The Heintzel WR report - A Josh Doctson tape analysis

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, megared said:

 

Here's a pretty good Reddit discussion on someone that analyzed some tape of him:

 

Reddit: TheHeintzel Analysis The Not-So Curious Case of Josh Doctson

 

Here's another one:  The Heintzel WR report - A Josh Doctson tape analysis

 

Thanks. Very interesting, and not really surprising given his college tape and his skill set but I do agree with the author there that he can definitely produce if used correctly but he's probably not ever going to be a guy who is great at getting tons of separation and beating press coverage. However, as the author states, his skill set means he doesn't really need it as he excels in using his body control, leverage, leaping ability etc to get catches (just like some other WRs he mentions). 

 

I also think it gives us a bit of a window into why both Kirk and Alex have had reservations going to him. Kirk is very much a rhythm passer who generally likes things to stick to the system/progressions and throw to guys who are relatively open. Alex isn't as strict in his adherence to a controlled system but he is very cautious with the ball so he's also less likely to throw to a WR like Doctson on a regular basis and let him use his skills to make the catches.

 

Maybe this just isn't the right place for JD?

Edited September 24, 2018 by mistertim

[Morneblade]

4 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Thanks. Very interesting, and not really surprising given his college tape and his skill set but I do agree with the author there that he can definitely produce if used correctly but he's probably not ever going to be a guy who is great at getting tons of separation and beating press coverage. However, as the author states, his skill set means he doesn't really need it as he excels in using his body control, leverage, leaping ability etc to get catches (just like some other WRs he mentions). 

 

I also think it gives us a bit of a window into why both Kirk and Alex have had reservations going to him. Kirk is very much a rhythm passer who generally likes things to stick to the system/progressions and throw to guys who are relatively open. Alex isn't as strict in his adherence to a controlled system but he is very cautious with the ball so he's also less likely to throw to a WR like Doctson on a regular basis and let him use his skills to make the catches.

 

Maybe this just isn't the right place for JD?

 

I think this is partially it. The other issue is that Doct flat out drops balls. You can't trust him to go over the middle and hang on (we've already seen that this year) or make tough catches in traffic. He's big, but not physical, and I don't think either guy really trusts him to be clutch.

 

But, keep in mind, he was the 2nd most targeted receiver we had last year. It's just his catch rate was 45% He had chances. He just didn't convert. To put that into focus, Pryor was almost 10 points BETTER.

[Rogue Jedi]

Honestly, no point in changing anything right now.

 

This offense can move the ball with or without production from the WRs.

 

Between Reed/Davis/Crowder/AP/CT we have plenty of weapons.

 

Just wait till the offseason/draft for some upgrades

[Burgold]

2 minutes ago, Rogue Jedi said:

Honestly, no point in changing anything right now.

 

This offense can move the ball with or without production from the WRs.

 

Between Reed/Davis/Crowder/AP/CT we have plenty of weapons.

 

Just wait till the offseason/draft for some upgrades

In fairness, we got some good production from Richardson and Crowder yesterday. They gave us at least 14 of our points. Positive contributions. Doctson has not been able to rise yet. If he's going to be that receiver who doesn't get create separation, but uses basketball skills and great hands to win balls... then he better start catching everything in sight. His drops make it scary to go to him when the ball can be contested.

[megared]

41 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Thanks. Very interesting, and not really surprising given his college tape and his skill set but I do agree with the author there that he can definitely produce if used correctly but he's probably not ever going to be a guy who is great at getting tons of separation and beating press coverage. However, as the author states, his skill set means he doesn't really need it as he excels in using his body control, leverage, leaping ability etc to get catches (just like some other WRs he mentions). 

 

I also think it gives us a bit of a window into why both Kirk and Alex have had reservations going to him. Kirk is very much a rhythm passer who generally likes things to stick to the system/progressions and throw to guys who are relatively open. Alex isn't as strict in his adherence to a controlled system but he is very cautious with the ball so he's also less likely to throw to a WR like Doctson on a regular basis and let him use his skills to make the catches.

 

Maybe this just isn't the right place for JD?

 

But surely Gruden and Alex know the kind of receiver he is...so my question then becomes what gives for the lack of production?  Send him on those routes he's good at running, and have Alex throw him the ball in one on one match ups so either he catches it, or it's incomplete.  Or better yet throw it high where he'll out-jump most DBs.  

 

They have had a training camp and however many practices to become accustomed to it.  If we're going to be a good team, everybody has to be involved in the offense.  Otherwise we'll flounder when good defenses neutralize our best threats.