Redskins receiving corp is beginning to shape up

[RandyHolt]

Folks are down on Doctson. I understand it, I really do.  I want him to be dominant too but he is what he is. We don't talk about the elephant in the room often, but we kinda suck ass at developing WRs. Yeah, Crowder and.... Grant and crickets. 

 

I have all but given up hope on Harris. Before the concussion. Maybe he was on track to supplant Doctson this year, but I doubt it. I loved that one Beckham grade catch he had but then he vanished. I have wanted to see more of him since i first saw him.

 

There was some stat I heard on XM Fantasy last year, that if a WR didn't amass 20 or 25 total receptions in their first 2 years combined, their chance of becoming a bona fide NFL WR were close to nil.   No one has proven that stat wrong as far I as know.

 

But if there is ever a chance for him, at full health hopefully now, with the bye week and no other WR grabbing the bull by the horns and becoming Alex's preferred target... this is it.  Prove the stat historians wrong.

Edited September 27, 2018 by RandyHolt

[skinny21]

@RandyHolt I see stats like this and it really makes me wonder.  Harris may well amount to very little, but last year  he was a 2nd year UDFA trying to get time when we were tied in with Doctson, Crowder and Pryor.  Ultimately, Grant (Gruden’s baby) was, understandably further along than Harris and earned more PT as the season progressed.  Now Harris has essentially taken over Grant’s role (from early last season), but also has an underwhelming Doctson in front of him. He also has the benefit of fitting Smith’s play style better (better route runner, more dependable, less of a jump ball guy).  Not expecting much, but I could see him getting more and more PT as the season goes on.  Of course, unless he really breaks out, he’s likely back down to #4 next year (depending on certain factors).  

 

In on a broader sense, I see the situation similar to late round qbs (other positions as well) - they aren’t typically given much of a chance to develop and earn PT.  Teams will turn to the draft or FA and are then far more motivated to have that new player succeed.  Doesn’t mean they couldn’t become a good qb, but they rarely are given the opportunity or have a chance to earn some trust/faith.  

 

Eh, I’m babbling.  

[RandyHolt]

@skinny21

Good post. WR is a tough position.  Mo Harris getting concussed sucked ass BIG time. Another nut punch we open the year with 2 rookies and it seemed like we actually planned on using them.... and they both get hurt....immediately. It can explain why we don't see Jay running our WRs straight at Mike's on slants right now. Why risk Doctson on that play when Jay has lots of non WR options to move the ball, and zero depth at WR?

 

The precision required in running routes in the NFL seems... extreme. I suspect a few of Mo's routes were not to Jay / Kirks standard and that's why he couldn't get reps despite Docs 5050s, Pryor injured and ineffective. Crowder - weeks of lack luster production plus fumbles.... the lone man standing ahead of him was Grant

 

Mo has size. Hands look great.  The routes and speed... so what is it ES. What is the biggest weakness in his game. Lack of experience doesn't hold much water entering his 3rd year in the same offense.

Edited September 27, 2018 by RandyHolt

[mojo]

If our receivers don’t step up against New Orleans, a team ranked last against the pass and just lost one of their best corners, we don’t have much to look forward to.  I expect Jamison Crowder to go off.

[skinny21]

My hunch is what I implied before - they really wanted Doctson and Pryor to succeed (higher ceilings as well as more resources invested), and then Grant (and Crowder) was ahead because he was more seasoned - route running, blocking, comfort in the scheme.  I do wonder if Harris lacks some of the explosion that can help with separation, which puts him in a similar category as Doctson (lacking the 3 main components for separating - high end speed, explosion and route running).  I could well be off base though.  

 

Shame Harris missed so much time, but at least there are plenty of games left.  He should have a chance to make a mark (and maybe earn more PT).  I’ll add that he’s also, to some extent, competing with Davis for PT.  

[OVCChairman]

10 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

Folks are down on Doctson. I understand it, I really do.  I want him to be dominant too but he is what he is. We don't talk about the elephant in the room often, but we kinda suck ass at developing WRs. Yeah, Crowder and.... Grant and crickets. 

 

 

 

 

Our leading receivers have by and large been free agent pickups.  Crowder led the team in yards last year, and beyond that I can't rack my brain to come up with a drafted WR that was the 'top' WR on the team since Rod Gardner.  

 

I went back on a quick look and in 2010 Santana Moss had 1100+ and Anthony Armstrong, who we drafted, had 871.  That was about the last respectable season by a drafted player we've had... .

 

Now I also understand how infrequently we take WRs on day 1 or day 2.  The Malcolm Kelly / Devin Thomas draft scarred us all away from taking a WR at the top of the draft.   Rod Gardner in 2001 was the last time (before Doc) that we took a WR in the 1st.  We've had multiple 2nd and 3rd rounders, but it's hard to expect game breaking talent when we've been passive about spending top tier draft picks on guys.  

 

Ike Hilliard is our wr coach and he's in his 6th season.  That would mean he came in around 2012.  Our drafts since then look like this.

 

2012 -  0 WR drafted

2013 - 0 WR drafted

2014 -  Ryan Grant - 5th round (Starter)

2015 -  Jamison Crowder - 4th round (Starter)

2016 - Josh Doctson - 1st round (underachieving)

2017 - Robert Davis - 6th round (I.R. but people had high hopes)

2018 -  Trey Quinn - 7th round (final pick of the draft) (I.R. but looked promising)

 

Lets be honest, we haven't exactly had some giant talent pool for them to work with.  In this time we did have a period with D.Jax and Pierre, as well as a little carryover from Santana Moss, so the 'need' for a top of the draft WR may have been mitigated to a point... but I also don't look at that list and say "wow, they've really missed out on a lot of talent."  What I see there is a pretty good level of development with very little to work with.  I feel like we've neglected WR the same way we've neglected D-line in the past.  We've looked at free agency for out big players (Jackson, Garcon, Moss) and then when those guys walk, it's not hard to understand why that position appears to be lacking. 

[bird_1972]

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

Lets be honest, we haven't exactly had some giant talent pool for them to work with.  In this time we did have a period with D.Jax and Pierre, as well as a little carryover from Santana Moss, so the 'need' for a top of the draft WR may have been mitigated to a point... but I also don't look at that list and say "wow, they've really missed out on a lot of talent."  What I see there is a pretty good level of development with very little to work with.  I feel like we've neglected WR the same way we've neglected D-line in the past.  We've looked at free agency for out big players (Jackson, Garcon, Moss) and then when those guys walk, it's not hard to understand why that position appears to be lacking. 

 

Great post. 

 

So what do you think is the fix here?

[OVCChairman]

4 hours ago, bird_1972 said:

 

Great post. 

 

So what do you think is the fix here?

 

 

If Doc doesn't turn it around, I think we look early in the draft this year at WR.  Right now my 'needs' for this team look something like

 

1. LG

2. WR

3. CB

4. S

5. OT

 

Edit:  Add TE to this list.. possibly instead of S.. Great points by other posters.  

 

 

Now I don't mean these are the rounds we need to use on them... just that the order I think we need to address.   If Brandon Scherff 2.0 is there with our first pick... we need to trip on ourselves getting up there.  If there isn't a 1st round interior lineman available, i'm looking WR / CB.  Those are 2 positions that we've fallen out of love spending high picks on.  We invested 1st rounders (and i'm very happy about it) on the lines, now we need those skill positions that can change the games.  I feel like we have core depth at both places, so I think we need that top tier guy to put us over the top.  

Edited September 27, 2018 by OVCChairman

[Sandy Monk]

6 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

If Doc doesn't turn it around, I think we look early in the draft this year at WR.  Right now my 'needs' for this team look something like

 

1. LG

2. WR

3. CB

4. S

5. OT

 

Are you anticipating good health for the TEs, and therefore, rolling with the same 3 in 2019 then? 

[bird_1972]

16 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

If Doc doesn't turn it around, I think we look early in the draft this year at WR.  Right now my 'needs' for this team look something like

 

1. LG

2. WR

3. CB

4. S

5. OT

 

I would add EDGE and TE to the list although I think TE can be found in mid/later rounds. CB in the late rounds.

 

I'm believing if an elite OT is there with our first rounder, we take him. Need to have Trent replacement plan ready.

[OVCChairman]

1 minute ago, Sandy Monk said:

 

Are you anticipating good health for the TEs, and therefore, rolling with the same 3 in 2019 then? 

 

 

Not fully, but right this minute there's no real room.  Reed and Davis are both under contract for a few more years, so it's not as much of a 'need' right now.  I'd absolutely look to address it... but it wouldn't be a 1st or 2nd day draft pick for me yet... I'd look at it for Saturday.  I feel like we need to gameplan better and stop putting Reed in blocking situations.  We're not helping his health issues by asking him to run into brick walls.

1 minute ago, bird_1972 said:

 

I would add EDGE and TE to the list although I think TE can be found in mid/later rounds. CB in the late rounds.

 

I'm believing if an elite OT is there with our first rounder, we take him. Need to have Trent replacement plan ready.

 

Yeah they're needs, but RIGHT NOW I dont see them as being AS important as the others.  Like I said, these are the draft picks I'd be using on those players, just the main things I feel need attention sooner rather than later.   If Reed and Davis go down with major injuries, this list quickly changes.  

[bird_1972]

3 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 If Reed and Davis go down with major injuries, this list quickly changes.  

 

My thinking is that we will be lucky to get through a full season (or most of a season) with Reed healthy and productive. Davis is getting up there and its a matter of time before the wheels fall off. 

 

It would be better to have a TE on board before Davis falls off the cliff. We can then trade Reed for some value after the end of the season.

[RRiz]

Reading the raiders forum, their fans are extremely frustrated with Amari Cooper. I wonder if Jay would think about calling up his brother and seeing if Amari was available. Maybe Josh Doctson and a 3rd for Amari?

[RandyHolt]

I favor using free agency for WRs.  It's takes away a lot of the guesswork.  Can he beat NFL grade press? Desmond Howard Syndrome let's call it.  If a WR we draft isn't quite ready, it seems almost required that they play special teams well. That is another unknown of a guy we draft, a stud at his school, never playing teams there... here he is a 5 biding time, and running around on teams.

 

I am all for trying to trade for a bonafide WR midseason with our injuries mounting already.   I think its important that the playbooks/terminology are similar to get them up to speed asap.  Maybe someone that has worked with Alex in the past. The perks of a 37 year old QB.

Edited September 27, 2018 by RandyHolt

[SemperFi Skins]

18 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I favor using free agency for WRs.  It's takes away a lot of the guesswork.  Can he beat press? Desmond Howard Syndrome let's call it.  If a WR we draft isn't quite ready, it seems almost required that they play special teams well. That is another unknown of a guy we draft, a stud at his school, never playing teams there... here he is a 5 biding time, and running around on teams.

 

I am all for trying to trade for a bonafide WR midseason with our injuries mounting already.   I think its important that the playbooks/terminology are similar to get them up to speed asap.  Maybe someone that has worked with Alex in the past. The perks of a 37 year old QB.

 

 

Jeremy Maclin

[jbird2]

Are Quinn and Sims eligible to come back week 8 or after 8 games, (week 9)?

 

 

[Morneblade]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

I favor using free agency for WRs.  It's takes away a lot of the guesswork.  Can he beat NFL grade press? Desmond Howard Syndrome let's call it.  If a WR we draft isn't quite ready, it seems almost required that they play special teams well. That is another unknown of a guy we draft, a stud at his school, never playing teams there... here he is a 5 biding time, and running around on teams.

 

I am all for trying to trade for a bonafide WR midseason with our injuries mounting already.   I think its important that the playbooks/terminology are similar to get them up to speed asap.  Maybe someone that has worked with Alex in the past. The perks of a 37 year old QB.

 

As several people have pointed out, Smith doesn't throw a lot to his outside receivers. Throwing bigtime resources there might not get a big boost in results. We might be better off just going with what we have, and wait for Quinn or Simms to get back. And maybe start seeing what Quick and Harris can do instead of Doctson.

[bobandweave]

It's official. Time to go get Rishard Matthews very underrated receiver

 

https://www.profootballrumors.com/2018/09/titans-release-rishard-matthews

 

[RandyHolt]

21 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

As several people have pointed out, Smith doesn't throw a lot to his outside receivers. Throwing bigtime resources there might not get a big boost in results. We might be better off just going with what we have, and wait for Quinn or Simms to get back. And maybe start seeing what Quick and Harris can do instead of Doctson.

 

Are Michael Floyd and Perriman considered outside receivers?  I assume Floyd yes.  Using what we have will suffice as long as everyone heals up. But we probably shouldn't expect that, after having 4 WRs injured/ailing this early in the season.

 

NFL players seem to come a lot cheaper than I think they will.  What are big time resources... a 4th?  Not the best example, but Gordon cost the Pats little.  Jay could call brother Jon, and work the family discount angle on Cooper. I wonder how many more years of 7-9 / 8-8 Jay and Bruce will get.

[Morneblade]

10 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Are Michael Floyd and Perriman considered outside receivers?  I assume Floyd yes.  Using what we have will suffice as long as everyone heals up. But we probably shouldn't expect that, after having 4 WRs injured/ailing this early in the season.

 

Yes

 

10 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

NFL players seem to come a lot cheaper than I think they will.  What are big time resources... a 4th?  Not the best example, but Gordon cost the Pats little.  Jay could call brother Jon, and work the family discount angle on Cooper. I wonder how many more years of 7-9 / 8-8 Jay and Bruce will get.

 

4th is fine. Throwing another first, for a team that can't draft a 1st round WR to save it's life, for a QB that doesn't throw all that much to his outside receiver, seems pretty stupid IMO. I hope Bruce doesn't get any.

[OVCChairman]

6 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

Yes

 

 

4th is fine. Throwing another first, for a team that can't draft a 1st round WR to save it's life, for a QB that doesn't throw all that much to his outside receiver, seems pretty stupid IMO. I hope Bruce doesn't get any.

 

 

Throwing ANOTHER first?  How do we know this team cant draft a 1st round WR to save its life?  

[Sandy Monk]

3 hours ago, RRiz said:

Reading the raiders forum, their fans are extremely frustrated with Amari Cooper. I wonder if Jay would think about calling up his brother and seeing if Amari was available. Maybe Josh Doctson and a 3rd for Amari?

 

Would love to add him, but if this contract info is right? eh.. maybe not so much. ( 7.2 m this yr and 13.9 next, ouch )

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/oakland-raiders/amari-cooper-16728/

 

I don't know enough about this Rishard Mathews option, but how many targets could he expect in DC anyway? 

[Morneblade]

2 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

Throwing ANOTHER first?  How do we know this team cant draft a 1st round WR to save its life?  

 

The last one that worked out was Art Monk. And it's not like we haven't tried. We've got what, 20 games on the last one?

[OVCChairman]

1 minute ago, Morneblade said:

 

The last one that worked out was Art Monk. And it's not like we haven't tried. We've got what, 20 games on the last one?

 

Scot drafted Doc in 2016

 

The last WR we took in the first round before that...

 

Rod Gardner.... 2001

When have we tried?

 

 

 

 

 

[Morneblade]

2 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

Scot drafted Doc in 2016

 

The last WR we took in the first round before that...

 

Rod Gardner.... 2001

When have we tried?

 

 

 

 

 

Granted.

However,

2nd round Malcomb Kelly

2nd round Devin Thomas (first player taken, no first round pick this year)

3rd Round Leonard Hankerson

 

So, we have tried in the last 10 years. We just have nothing to show for it. and the other issue, the one I noticed you failed to mention, we have a QB that doesn't rely on his outside receivers much. He's a TE/RB/slot WR guy.