Let's All Get Behind Alex Smith! Or Not!! (M.E.T.) NO kirk talk---that goes in ATN forum

[OVCChairman]

14 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Those same complaints are there for every franchise, every week.  Big plays will always go missed, even by the best QBs.  With Alex it’s more the regularity in which we see big/bigger plays missed because he’s not getting the ball out on time. 

 

 

 

 

Then that complaint can't be used as a knock on Smith.... (general statement)

 

To your point about not getting the ball out in time... I ask again.. when is Gruden going to look at the progression reads and adjust?  When Doctson or Harris is breaking free on the left side of the field, but Reed is marginally open in the flat to the right, Smith never has to get to that side of the field... When Reed isn't open and nothing flashes, Alex is behind a mash unit of an offensive line, it's not easy to get the read across the field.  Even the throw to Davis... I would genuinely be interested in what number he was in the progression because Davis was open almost that entire play.... I don't have the film breakdown to look at every play and see how Alex goes through the offense, but it's apparent that often times the most open guy is late in the read, greatly dropping the % of the pass, and allowing the defense to recover.  

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

That's fine.  My point is if you are going to sell that we are winning because of him --

 

 

 

 

I literally said ... " he does enough small things to not lose us games".

 

There is a big difference btw "winning because of him" and "not lose us games".

 

I would never say Alex Smith is winning us games.

 

I feel like I just got Huckabe'd

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, ILikeBilly said:

You left out "we are burning everyone with our positive turnover differential."

 

this is the biggest difference on offense this year.  We would not be 6 -3 with our qb  from last year. 5-4 at best, but 4-5 is more likely.  As shown above, we are scoring more this year than last year in our victories. As "bad" as Alex is, he is a winner.  

 

i know it is a losing argument on this board, but our qb situation for 2017 and 2018 is sort of like the D. Marino vs T. Bradshaw argument.  Bradshaw was a winner.  Marino threw a pretty ball.  

 

I had Alex played better as part of the soup.  So I presume your point is he's played well enough as is for this team to be 11-5-12-4 so what's the deal with talking about him playing better?  Otherwise, not sure I get the point?

 

As for your point that Alex is a winner as bad as he looked -- yep I've heard the argument many times here -- I'd even agree with it if its couched this way -- he's a winner if the rest of the roster is really good and leads the way.  If people don't mention the roster in the context of Alex being a winner -- the argument falls flat to me.  But that's me.  To each their own.?

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

22 minutes ago, Why am I Mr. Pink? said:

 

I literally said ... " he does enough small things to not lose us games".

 

There is a big difference btw "winning because of him" and "not lose us games".

 

I would never say Alex Smith is winning us games.

 

I feel like I just got Huckabe'd

 

You spoke on behalf of everyone saying that 

I dont get the "selling" part. Seems some ppl who have strong negative opinions of Alex are coming from a position that Jay and FO sold him as an upgrade and us fans who dont hold strong negative views of Alex are polly annas who are over selling his turnover ratio as a way to sell him to the other fans.

 

So I responded that the people I was referring to (I even said on my original post I had three specific people in mind -- and no you weren't one of those people) are going beyond not just having strong negative positions but are selling that we are winning because of the dude.

 

I actually said in my post the way you framed it was fine.  Then I said when "you" but I was using it as an expression to refer to those same people I didn't literally mean "you" and explained how they were explaining the point -- which was different than how you explained yours. 

 

That's why right after saying you I said that "same person".  If I meant you are making the point then I would have just stuck to you versus referring to that "same person" and then talking about "people".   But regardless, it was sloppy grammer on my end as to making the point.  So sorry about that.   And no I wasn't saying that you were making the point -- I was sticking to the same people I've been referring to.

[CutPryorNow]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I had Alex played better as part of the soup.  So I presume your point is he's played well enough as is for this team to be 11-5-12-4 so what's the deal with talking about him playing better?  Otherwise, not sure I get the point?

 

As for your point that Alex is a winner as bad as he looked -- yep I've heard the argument many times here -- I'd even agree with it if its couched this way -- he's a winner if the rest of the roster is really good and leads the way.  If people don't mention the roster in the context of Alex being a winner -- the argument falls flat to me.  But that's me.  To each their own.?

 

 

 

I don't think this can be implied about the Skin's roster at this point. I do think they have a few puzzle pieces that are really good

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, CutPryorNow said:

I don't think this can be implied about the Skin's roster at this point. I do think they have a few puzzle pieces that are really good

 

That might be so.  Some NFL observers including the guys from Football Outsiders think the team is overrated. 

 

I don't know.  The defense has looked good at times.  The special teams has been really good.  Peterson has at times been really good.  So if I had to land on a position i'd say they have a good team.  This game coming up I think is a good test on that point. 

 

My point is I don't think Alex is a winner if this is how he plays if he's surrounded by mediocrity.   We've seen what happens when other units have a bad day -- its not been great.  But when other units play really well -- Alex doesn't screw it up and yes there is some value to that. 

[CutPryorNow]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

That might be so.  Some NFL observers including the guys from Football Outsiders think the team is overrated. 

 

I don't know.  The defense has looked good at times.  The special teams has been really good.  Peterson has at times been really good.  So if I had to land on a position i'd say they have a good team.  This game coming up I think is a good test on that point. 

 

My point is I don't think Alex is a winner if this is how he plays if he's surrounded by mediocrity.   We've seen what happens when other units have a bad day -- its not been great.  But when other units play really well -- Alex doesn't screw it up and yes there is some value to that. 

I agree and I know it's cliche but the next two games will tell us a lot. Hopefully it's not the good skins, bad skins all over again or vice versa

[Malapropismic Depository]

5 minutes ago, CutPryorNow said:

I agree and I know it's cliche but the next two games will tell us a lot. Hopefully it's not the good skins, bad skins all over again or vice versa

 

You must be super-happy right now, because in addition to the Redskins, about 3 other teams have taken the advice in your username

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, CutPryorNow said:

I agree and I know it's cliche but the next two games will tell us a lot. Hopefully it's not the good skins, bad skins all over again or vice versa

 

I saw you post about this is how Alex plays aside from 2017 and or if he has a great fast player maker to help him assuming you mean like Hill. 

 

One thing though I heard on the radio he had the 4th worst rating on the deep ball in the league this year -- last year he was tops.  So I am presuming he will get the timing down and improve on that front.  

 

The other thing is Chris Thompson hopefully coming back.  For a dude who relies on short passes and YAC we don't have the horses to enable that.  Thompson is probably the closest thing to a YAC beast on the roster.  

 

So I am presuming these 2 things will yield improvement. 

 

 

[Tsailand]

1 hour ago, Morneblade said:

In fact, I think we're running a slow offense, and doing it on purpose. Burn as much time as we can.

 

That's fine in general, but not when we're down 14.  Or when it means we need to waste timeouts.  Sad!  Many such cases!

 

 

41 minutes ago, Boss_Hogg said:

Random post from 1971-2018: "Hey let's talk about the Washington Redskins QB"

 

Fixed that for ya

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

37 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

Then that complaint can't be used as a knock on Smith.... (general statement)

The other side of my point was that Smith is doing it more often than what you're seeing from the better passers in the game.  Yes, every player misses big plays.  Smith has missed a ton.  It's not just the big plays I'm talking about, it's the better plays too.  Where he settles for the safe play rather than the optimal play, too often for my liking or Andy Reid or I'm sure now Jay Gruden as well.

 

42 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

I don't have the film breakdown to look at every play and see how Alex goes through the offense, but it's apparent that often times the most open guy is late in the read, greatly dropping the % of the pass, and allowing the defense to recover. 

I think that really depends on what 'open' means to you.  Open is a subjective term when talking about quarterbacks.  Alex is clearly on the side of the spectrum that wants a guy wide open.  That's not to say he'll never stick it in there, but not enough to scare a defense.

[PF Chang]

1 hour ago, ILikeBilly said:

You left out "we are burning everyone with our positive turnover differential."

 

this is the biggest difference on offense this year.  We would not be 6 -3 with our qb  from last year. 5-4 at best, but 4-5 is more likely.  As shown above, we are scoring more this year than last year in our victories. As "bad" as Alex is, he is a winner.  

 

i know it is a losing argument on this board, but our qb situation for 2017 and 2018 is sort of like the D. Marino vs T. Bradshaw argument.  Bradshaw was a winner.  Marino threw a pretty ball.  

 

It's a losing argument anywhere. Bradshaw is a "winner" because of the Steel Curtain and players like Franco Harris and Lynn Swann. Troy Aikman is a "winner" the same way. If the 70s Steelers had Dan Marino they wouldn't have lost a game. 

[OVCChairman]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The other side of my point was that Smith is doing it more often than what you're seeing from the better passers in the game.  Yes, every player misses big plays.  Smith has missed a ton.  It's not just the big plays I'm talking about, it's the better plays too.  Where he settles for the safe play rather than the optimal play, too often for my liking or Andy Reid or I'm sure now Jay Gruden as well.

 

I think that really depends on what 'open' means to you.  Open is a subjective term when talking about quarterbacks.  Alex is clearly on the side of the spectrum that wants a guy wide open.  That's not to say he'll never stick it in there, but not enough to scare a defense.

 

 

If Reed has a step on his guy, and Smith is comfortable making the throw, then he doesn't need to go to the next progression.... he throws it to reed for a 5 yard gain... .meanwhile Harris is 4 yards ahead of his defender with a walk in touchdown... but since Smith never needed to get past his first read, he never sees Harris.  

 

I've seen it happen with multiple QBs in this system because of the nature of how our system is setup.  It runs through CT the middle of the field.  I understand the purpose of it, but that's where Gruden needs to see it on film and figure out why those 'deep shot' or '50/50' balls are not being seen regardless of who's behind center.  

[Taylor 36]

2 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

 

Honest question... when we've heard the same complaints from the same play caller across 3 QBs.. when do we start to look at the offensive play calling and adjustments to change the 1st / 2nd read in the progression?  All QBs under Gruden have been accused of missing the big plays that were available within this same offensive system.  

 

Yes, Alex has missed chances, I understand that, so my argument isn't that he doesn't have room for improvement, but for 5 seasons I've been hearing the same knocks about multiple different QBs.  

My issue is that this is the norm for Alex, and it happens damn near every drop back.  Sure, our other QB's have missed some guys; all QB's are going to miss some guys no matter how good they are.  But, again, this is the norm for Alex, and that is just not acceptable at this level and this far into his career.

[OVCChairman]

1 minute ago, Taylor 36 said:

My issue is that this is the norm for Alex, and it happens damn near every drop back.  Sure, our other QB's have missed some guys; all QB's are going to miss some guys no matter how good they are.  But, again, this is the norm for Alex, and that is just not acceptable at this level and this far into his career.

 

 

Are you meaning he's missing as in he's not seeing them, or he's missing as in he's throwing the ball and it's incomplete?

[Taylor 36]

10 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

Are you meaning he's missing as in he's not seeing them, or he's missing as in he's throwing the ball and it's incomplete?

Both, actually.

[OVCChairman]

3 minutes ago, Taylor 36 said:

Both, actually.

 

 

He's not throwing an incomplete 'damn near every drop back.'  He's also not failing to see an open receiver every drop back either... and Iike I said, how many times within this offense is the open receiver the 3rd or 4th read in the progression which he never gets to.  Whether it be because he opts for an attempt at an earlier read, or the fact that he's playing behind a makeshift O-line? 

 

He does need to get more comfortable, and the level of play is not good enough, but he's not the ONLY cause for these frustrations.  The making bad throws to open receivers is on him, i'm not disputing that.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

18 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

and Iike I said, how many times within this offense is the open receiver the 3rd or 4th read in the progression which he never gets to.  Whether it be because he opts for an attempt at an earlier read, or the fact that he's playing behind a makeshift O-line? 

I'm not sure how any of us can answer this as we're not privy to Gruden's playbook.  On the other hand, Cooley is someone who's studied it thoroughly and desperately wants to be positive about the Skins.  Yet he's walking away each week unimpressed with Alex to the point that he can't even make up things to be optimistic about, other than hopefully it gets better with time. The line just recently became makeshift and he actually looked a little better behind it, whether that's comfort or merely a few really soft defenses is yet to be determined.  I have a hard time holding Gruden's feet to the fire because a QB historically known to hold the ball too long and take conservative throws is still doing that here.

[Tsailand]

1 hour ago, PF Chang said:

 

It's a losing argument anywhere. Bradshaw is a "winner" because of the Steel Curtain and players like Franco Harris and Lynn Swann. Troy Aikman is a "winner" the same way. If the 70s Steelers had Dan Marino they wouldn't have lost a game. 

 

Eli is a Hall of Famer. Joe Flacco is a missed field goal from being a Hall of Famer (AFC championship game in Jan 2012).

[Hooper]

23 minutes ago, Tsailand said:

 

Eli is a Hall of Famer. Joe Flacco is a missed field goal from being a Hall of Famer (AFC championship game in Jan 2012).

Eli is a highly questionable HOF. The NY of it all definitely helps. Under 500 since his second SB, I believe. 

 

Flacco is nowhere close. Dude has been really mediocre since his amazing playoff run.

[Tsailand]

31 minutes ago, Hooper said:

Eli is a highly questionable HOF. The NY of it all definitely helps. Under 500 since his second SB, I believe. 

 

Flacco is nowhere close. Dude has been really mediocre since his amazing playoff run.

 

I agree with you when it comes to "have they played at a HOF level".  Because neither of them have, not close.

 

However, in terms of "will they actually make the hall of fame", Eli will, and Flacco would too if Billy Cundiff hadn't missed a 32 yard field gold in 2012.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[NoCalMike]

You know I watched the Hawks/Pack game closely because those QB's like to throw deep and something I noticed is that the deep passing game is straight up low percentage period.   So many misses by even the best QB's.   I think right now with Smith/the offense is the lack of attempts more than anything.

 

Rodgers and others, they keep the potential going the entire game because of much they attempt to push the ball down the field, but if you follow the game pass for pass you will see clear as day that throwing deep is a low percentage prospect, however if you win the game no one remembers the 5 deep passes that were missed, they remember the 1-2 big completions.

[Morneblade]

39 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

You know I watched the Hawks/Pack game closely because those QB's like to throw deep and something I noticed is that the deep passing game is straight up low percentage period.   So many misses by even the best QB's.   I think right now with Smith/the offense is the lack of attempts more than anything.

 

Rodgers and others, they keep the potential going the entire game because of much they attempt to push the ball down the field, but if you follow the game pass for pass you will see clear as day that throwing deep is a low percentage prospect, however if you win the game no one remembers the 5 deep passes that were missed, they remember the 1-2 big completions.

 

Or the interference call.

 

Basically, taking shots give you the ability to do a couple things.

First, it gives the defense something to think about, even if you didn't hit. This helps open up the underneath stuff and makes it easier to run.

Second, chunk plays are huge. Trying to put together a 12 play drive with no mistakes is hard. It's much easier to do that with a 5 play drive, when one of those plays got you 50 yards.

Third, pass interference is a real thing, and gets called.

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

3 hours ago, Morneblade said:

 

Trying to put together a 12 play drive with no mistakes is hard. It's much easier to do that with a 5 play drive, when one of those plays got you 50 yards.

 

Why do I find this funny when he slams Alex for doing just that...I know I'm on ignore with this guy..but I still "Had" to point this out..Back to being ignored ?