Alex Smith Trade Thread (Details Inside)

[NoVaSkins21]

IMO, the failing of getting a LTD done started with them firing McGloughan.  He may have been the only person in that building that believed in Cousins.  After that, I believe Cousins was done because he didn't trust Allen at all.  The Smith trade was a move to save face, but the contract extension was a slap in the face to Cousins with the money that was given out.  

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

1 hour ago, skins island connection said:

 

  but the entire reason why this team is IN the position they are in now is because of the FO and their inability to take care of business.

 

They took care of business...Cousins BLEW important games 2015, 2016. Was FLAT in NEEDED games with Green Bay to advance in playoffs, New York TWICE one costing us a playoff spot in 2016. THOSE :LOSSES called for Prudence..you don't make a QB the top paid player for Choking...period...

 

Too many Chokes to get in a bidding war @ 30+ Mil.

 

I'm glad he's gone. We'll see if he's worth the cash..if he IS..good for him..Better for us for having moved beyond the soap opera

[TSO]

8 hours ago, wit33 said:

The NFL isn’t “designed” to allow for consistent winning to take place, unless you have an elite QB or to lesser degree a coach. This is my point. If you have a QB somewhere between 7 to 25, you will experience up and down seasons. So much right has to go on around these guys to win a few more games than they lose. 

 

A sport with so many variables involved makes it difficult to win “consistently” (even 3 years in a row... only 4 teams (stat heard from Cooley :/) accomplished this over the last 3). 

 

In my view its unrealistic (not impossible) for teams to sustain success for more than a 3 year window (unless you have an elite QB or coach).

 

Your point is the most common fallacy posited by fans, the idea that “elite” coaches or players are the reason for any semblance of sustained success, while ignoring the environment that allows them to be so. A major part of why they’re elite in the first place is because of the support they receive and it’s why those franchises often can move on from them and lose very little in the process. 

 

I mean, I know it’s long and complicated, but the case study I linked to a few posts back really shows how off that kind of thinking is. Have you given it a look? 

 

This arbitrary 7 to 25 ranking you’re throwing out means nothing. There is no perfect ranking system that places QBs in that tier. Everyone can debate it all to death. The smarter, stable FOs that are structured properly and implement processes that eliminate (to the extent they can) wasting resources are the ones that somehow manage to develop their players into “elite” status. Processes matter. 

 

Do you know, for instance, how the Steelers selected Roethlisberger? Could you learn about that, identify the process there, and get back to me on how that benefited everyone within the organization? Was Ben “elite” right away? How’d that happen? 

 

Let’s exclude the process of acquiring Aaron Rodgers (since no one of sound mind will debate the Packers have what likely is the soundest approach there is to the draft), but what often gets overlooked is he had what was arguably the best system of development EVER. I mean, it is ridonkulous when you read about it. Again, these guys don’t become elite in vacuums. 

 

We also need to define “sustained success”. You seem to falsely assume that it means you never lose or never miss the playoffs. No, it means that you consistently avoid that and, when you do, you’re able to quickly bounce back. Even teams who have what you simplistically perceive as an “elite QB or coach” can have losing seasons.

 

8 hours ago, wit33 said:

Mcadoo—-

 

Yes, I believe the NFL is incredibly fickle and McAdoo was a below average coach and benefitted from a Spags led defense that meshed together. Mcadoo was suppose to be an offensive coach and the Giants were horrible offensively during the 11-5 and this past season. 

 

It’s interesting you don’t see how that proves my point there. So McAdoo is a below average coach according to you, yet somehow managed an 11-5 season? 

 

Your faulty conclusion aside (the great Spags you’re trying to give the credit to wasn’t even retained after having one of the worst defense’s in the league this past season), the right thing to understand from that is how vital personnel acquisition, and thus FO leadership, is. Coaches only mean and can do so much in a league with a salary cap and draft, where everyone is on a level playing field in terms of resources and assets. Resource management is the biggest factor in succeeding. 

 

8 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

FOs——

 

Just look at week to week scores, most games come down to a score or less. There isn’t much difference from many of the teams. I do believe teams begin to separate themselves towards the end of the season, usually done by the elite QBs and coaching staffs (though, I believe innovative offensive coaching is closing the gap between the other QBs (7-25) and the elites in certain games). 

 

Like many discussions in here, I’m arguing one point while appearing to totally disregard another (value of a Front office), but that’s not the case. We don’t disagree on this point. 

 

I think we definitely disagree.

 

Everything you’ve said here downplays the role of the Front Office by overly emphasizing coaching (you keep mentioning innovation, but fail to acknowledge how that can be stifled with one-dimensional personnel and/or a lack of understanding of the interdependency of positions when roster-building), assumes QBs can be “elite” without the right supporting cast starting at the top (while ignoring the many aspects of development that needs to be in place for them to become so), and generally having little to no reference as to how the FO impacts all of these things.

 

So it is tough for me to buy that you disregarding the FO is “not the case”. :/

 

It seems like you look at these people like fixed entities where coaches or QBs are simply elite and that’s it. There is no up or down, no good days or bad days, no thriving in a good environment (being able to focus and improve upon weaknesses, being supported throughout) or burning out in a bad one over time (where obstacles from within are constantly presented and needed to be overcome), etc...

 

That is the problem. And that’s what bad owners and execs get to use to pacify fanbases in a perpetual cycle of ugliness where the very hires they set up to fail are targeted and viewed as the problem instead of them. They can just replace them when they feel it necessary, but never replace the corrupted system itself that will inevitably have the new hires end with similar results. 

 

8 hours ago, wit33 said:

——I believe the Skins continue to value the draft, being fiscally responsible, resigning their own and continue to maintain stability with coaches/scheme. I’m also a fan who believes the roster is stronger than most on here, so time will tell if I’m accurate. A poor season this year will be tough to defend. It’s time!

 

Well, we agree a little bit here. They’ve done some good things for sure. Unfortunately, the wrongs they’ve committed are absolutely huge. 

 

How does “valuing the draft, being fiscally responsible, re-signing their own and continuing to maintain stability with coaches/scheme” apply to the the QB situation? Answer: it doesn’t. It was handled so poorly I’m not sure how anyone can overcome that, but it is what it is.

 

The roster is/was solid, and I was excited as anyone about it going into this past season, but they needed to maintain that and they needed to improve (and not by a lot, as the team looked very capable pre-injuries). Instead, they just lost an incredibly valuable asset they spent time developing and over $44 million of cap money (money they could’ve rolled over and used now) for nothing, while having to replace him using even more valuable assets with someone older.

 

It is arguably the worst resource management we’ve ever seen, and that’s not hyperbole. That is a massive obstacle for anyone within the building to overcome. It will even be a significant obstacle for anyone in the near future hired here if that occurs, as it’d mean they’re missing quite the chunk of cap space invested on someone no longer benefiting the team, a 3rd rounder and a great slot corner the moment they arrive, not to mention the questions about the future at the most important position on the field. 

 

Can Jay and co. overcome that? Maybe. You’re not going to find a bigger believer in Jay here. I just hate they have to. That’s my point. Contrast that with others who are successful within their organizations (ones like McVay who you mentioned), and see what they get to be the beneficiaries of in terms of resources and assets in comparison - resources and assets managed and acquired by legitimately qualified experts in their respective fields (and allowed to fulfill those roles in stable environments without unwarranted interference). Well, it’s not even close to me. 

 

 It’s maddening, really. 

 

I feel like this is sort of going nowhere at this point, and I’ve stated my peace. You can have the last word.  

[skins island connection]

8 hours ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

They took care of business...Cousins BLEW important games 2015, 2016. Was FLAT in NEEDED games with Green Bay to advance in playoffs, New York TWICE one costing us a playoff spot in 2016. THOSE :LOSSES called for Prudence..you don't make a QB the top paid player for Choking...period...

 

Too many Chokes to get in a bidding war @ 30+ Mil.

 

I'm glad he's gone. We'll see if he's worth the cash..if he IS..good for him..Better for us for having moved beyond the soap opera

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree. Its the one thing I'm really dumbfounded by, that some want to get him signed at being the highest paid player.

 

I was on the wave of thinking it was a good idea to sign him a few years ago when the price was in the 17-19 mil/yr range. Cousins and his agent are living in Fantasy Island if they think a team is going to break their payroll to sign him. There may be a few teams interested, but I doubt he gets what he wants; if he does, that team will be cellar dwellers for awhile unless they have an outstanding draft guru who can nab a handful of rookies at a cheaper cost.

[bobandweave]

So over under of three years time that fans who still want to talk about Cirk Kousins will still be after he moves onto his new team and sucks ass there too on Extremeskins? Considering 2012 Griffin talk still permeates this forum all the time I’m guessing the over. 

[sjinhan]

9 hours ago, SAli457180 said:

IMO, the failing of getting a LTD done started with them firing McGloughan.  He may have been the only person in that building that believed in Cousins.  After that, I believe Cousins was done because he didn't trust Allen at all.  The Smith trade was a move to save face, but the contract extension was a slap in the face to Cousins with the money that was given out.  

 

If you read recent McGloughan quotes on Cousins... he didn’t think Cousins was special like others in FO but he did see the value in signing Cousins early to LTD... once Cousins price tag got into the $25-28M range I think he was hesitant as well

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, sjinhan said:

 

If you read recent McGloughan quotes on Cousins... he didn’t think Cousins was special like others in FO but he did see the value in signing Cousins early to LTD... once Cousins price tag got into the $25-28M range I think he was hesitant as well

Scot has said a lot of stuff.  The price never got to 25-28M while he had the ability to do anything about it.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, sjinhan said:

 

If you read recent McGloughan quotes on Cousins... he didn’t think Cousins was special like others in FO but he did see the value in signing Cousins early to LTD... once Cousins price tag got into the $25-28M range I think he was hesitant as well

 

Scot also said in Sept 2017, at this point you got to get a LTD done with Kirk.  And the dude is a top 10 QB.  I agree more than anyone Scot's quotes are all over the place on Kirk but those comments were pretty concrete.

 

 "Special" Scot's pal Bucky Brooks said Scot sees as Aaron Rodgers/Brett Favre.  But the idea that you don't pay big for a very good QB but only the rare special ones -- is contradicted by the market every year.

[HOF44]

2 hours ago, bobandweave said:

So over under of three years time that fans who still want to talk about Cirk Kousins will still be after he moves onto his new team and sucks ass there too on Extremeskins? Considering 2012 Griffin talk still permeates this forum all the time I’m guessing the over. 

If he sucks I doubt you hear much about him from his supporters, now his detractors will keep beating the drum loudly with I told you so's.  Now if the opposite happens just reverse the last sentence.  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

On 2/17/2018 at 11:28 AM, thesubmittedone said:

 

Ok, cool.  

 

As for your last statement, my entire point, which is pretty depressing, is that you can’t. It takes a village, and it starts at the top. There is no other way. If you try to “find a guy” like that, you’re trying to find someone who is essentially flawless and can overcome anything with obstacles presented to them within their own supposed support system. Someone who essentially doesn’t even need an organization or the roles therein. 

 

That person doesn’t exist, and you’ll just end up in a perpetual cycle of hiring/acquiring people set up to fail, whether they’re legitimately good enough to win with or not. That’s what we’ve seen here since Dan bought the team. 

 

I agree...I don't really see this organization winning without big-time changes. However, I don't see any big-time changes coming so....

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 minutes ago, HOF44 said:

If he sucks I doubt you hear much about him from his supporters, now his detractors will keep beating the drum loudly with I told you so's.  Now if the opposite happens just reverse the last sentence.  

Right, the most outlandish AntiKirk folks like to act like this is some one sided deal.

 

The drama isn’t going anywhere no matter what happens.

[Tay]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Scot has said a lot of stuff.  The price never got to 25-28M while he had the ability to do anything about it.

 

This is true. Scot was out once the price approached $20M.

 

39 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Scot also said in Sept 2017, at this point you got to get a LTD done with Kirk.  And the dude is a top 10 QB. 

 

Scot wanted to trade him last off-season. After that didn't happen, I'm sure he felt like they had to get a deal done (like they attempted to do) to avoid losing him for nothing.

 

Scot's viewpoint on the Kirk situation has been more transparent than most.

[Skinsinparadise]

49 minutes ago, Tay said:

 

Scot wanted to trade him last off-season.

 

The narrative back then (early 2017 when he was still employed) seem to add up to either LTD or trade him.  He didn't believe in renting Kirk on a tag again.  In retrospect he was 100% right.  Either lock him in or get real compensation.  Bruce likely ends up with neither thing.  100% IMO the worst case scenario.   And I think some of the Kirk critics (this isn't pointed at you) who are so happy and vindicated he's headed out the door -- would agree with this point if they removed the giddiness of Kirk being gone and just zoned in on the full transaction.

 

49 minutes ago, Tay said:

 

After that didn't happen, I'm sure he felt like they had to get a deal done (like they attempted to do) to avoid losing him for nothing.

 

Tough to know either way.  He's made strong pro Kirk comments.  He's also made comments that show that he has cognitive dissonance about it one way or another.  He made comments in the fall of 2017 that its tough to find QBs and that when you got one you have to lock him in.  He's said Kirk is a pro bowl QB.  He's said he's a top 10 QB.  He's also said he's at his ceiling.  He's also said he'd pay him as recently as months back.  He's said you need a QB to win in this league and you need to overpay.  He's also said its tough to overpay because it hurts the rest of the roster.

 

The one thing he's been emphatic about it that this contract was misplayed including when he was there.

[JWB]

Completely agree with the above and nails this situation exactly. Scot did not help with this situation and Bruce has made it worse by putting us in a scenario where we end up with nothing.

 

That said, best for everyone that KC's time here comes to an end. He will get his shot to prove Scot and Bruce wrong.

 

 *Not a Cousins apologist, I just don't understand letting him play 2 years on a tag. We'll see if any other team does something similiar, maybe Pitt and Leveon Bell.

[Peregrine]

On 2/12/2018 at 1:30 AM, Rufus T Firefly said:

He wouldn't, but it shouldn't be up to him. It's one thing to have a coach heading into a season thinking he needs to perform to hold his job. But it should be obvious why you shouldn't have a GM going into a year thinking his job depends on winning games in that season.

 

Obvious to a good organization, I mean.

Agreed, but the other half of that is Bruce Allen also knows this year is probably his last shot.  He should have been fired long ago, and he feels the crunch just like Gruden.

[kingdaddy]

12 hours ago, skins island connection said:

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree. Its the one thing I'm really dumbfounded by, that some want to get him signed at being the highest paid player.

 

I was on the wave of thinking it was a good idea to sign him a few years ago when the price was in the 17-19 mil/yr range. Cousins and his agent are living in Fantasy Island if they think a team is going to break their payroll to sign him. There may be a few teams interested, but I doubt he gets what he wants; if he does, that team will be cellar dwellers for awhile unless they have an outstanding draft guru who can nab a handful of rookies at a cheaper cost.

He's going to be the highest paid player in the NFL if he hits free agency. I would bet a lot of money that he gets what he wants and probably more.

[PcolaChuy]

On 2/18/2018 at 9:43 PM, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

They took care of business...Cousins BLEW important games 2015, 2016. Was FLAT in NEEDED games with Green Bay to advance in playoffs, New York TWICE one costing us a playoff spot in 2016. THOSE :LOSSES called for Prudence..you don't make a QB the top paid player for Choking...period...

 

Too many Chokes to get in a bidding war @ 30+ Mil.

 

I'm glad he's gone. We'll see if he's worth the cash..if he IS..good for him..Better for us for having moved beyond the soap opera

Point #1 is true and I agree

Point #2 also true and I agree

Point #3 - not so much.  There have been way to many examples of players who left the Redskins and gone on to win many playoff, championship games and superbowls - it's getting old.

[PcolaChuy]

On 2/17/2018 at 1:11 PM, thesubmittedone said:

 

Not to sound harsh, but this is the naive fan view that we're trying to combat. You also said in another post you need an "elite coach or elite QB".

 

Those don't happen in vacuums. They don't wake up and just are "elite". Yes, there needs to be a baseline of skills/talent for it to occur, but then it's about environment. Otherwise, it doesn't happen. That is the fallacy most fans fall into believing as they overvalue what can be done by those positions without the proper FO structure above them placing them in an environment they can thrive in. A quality hiring process at the highest levels (ownership/top exec) is key. Resource management by that leadership is key (in the NFL, "resources" mainly revolves around personnel acquisition). Understanding and implementing team-building philosophies that recognizes the inter-dependency of various positions and roles within the organization is key. 

 

Without the above properly executed with any consistency, no coach or QB or player will truly thrive and overcome the limitations thus created. They will always have a ceiling provided for them by the top brass regardless of their own limitations (which everyone has). In many ways, this has a lot to do with social psychology and some of the soundest theories that exist in that field. 

      

This is an extremely nuanced topic that requires more than a couple paragraphs to get into. I've linked above to some research I've done on this in the past. I don't blame anyone for not understanding this or putting the various roles we're discussing in their proper places... it's just not something fans should even be privy to. Honestly, a big part of me wishes I can go back to not even knowing this stuff because it was much easier to be a fan before I did. 

And then there's the culture thing; cultures are driven by leaders - leaders at all levels:  on the field, in the locker room, on the sidelines, the fandom, and yes in the front office.  Not to be "captain obvious," but Tom Coughlin comes to mind.  Anyway, whether we choose to believe it or not, a culture will make or break an organization, regardless of whether it's a sports franchise or a business.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

13 minutes ago, PcolaChuy said:

And then there's the culture thing; cultures are driven by leaders - leaders at all levels:  on the field, in the locker room, on the sidelines, the fandom, and yes in the front office.  Not to be "captain obvious," but Tom Coughlin comes to mind.  Anyway, whether we choose to believe it or not, a culture will make or break an organization, regardless of whether it's a sports franchise or a business.

That culture also starts at the top though.  Much easier to build that culture when the folks at the top know what they are doing.  Much more difficult when they don’t.

[Rufus T Firefly]

20 hours ago, Peregrine said:

Agreed, but the other half of that is Bruce Allen also knows this year is probably his last shot.  He should have been fired long ago, and he feels the crunch just like Gruden.

Again, my point was that it is a terrible idea to have a GM, like Allen, knowing he has to win games that year to save his job.

[Skinsinparadise]

12 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Again, my point was that it is a terrible idea to have a GM, like Allen, knowing he has to win games that year to save his job.

 

Yeah that's how this deal feels to me.  Bruce and maybe Jay under pressure to win now.  As much as I'd love to see Bruce gone -- I blame this approach on Dan since that's where the heat would be coming from. 

 

This is now the 2nd year in a row where we got some really IMO screwed up choices with this team.   Being a fan of this team IMO is a running commentary on how to deal with cognitive dissonance.

 

Last year it was Bruce versus Kirk.  Do you support Bruce and the FO or back Kirk.  Are the two things compatible or do they run against each other?  Bruce arguably laid out the predicate that the two things aren't compatible.  Pick a side.  I thought that was majorly screwed up.

 

 Now IMO we got a whole new one for this year -- this one Dan driven.  Bruce and the FO maybe on the spot?  And does Dan need to hit rock bottom to wake up just like how it had to happen with Cerrato? 

 

I always root for the Redskins to win and that won't change.  That's reflex for me anytime I am watching a game.  But it feels a little like the Giants with Jerry Reese, many NY fans wanted him gone and it took last years collapse to make that happen.   Reese saved his job in 2016 with his FA spending spree working but then it all collapsed.   Giants took a step back last year but arguably with a brand new FO and high draft picks they are set for a rebound.  So for me it least this season is a rare one where like always I want them to win but at the same time I see no downside to the season going south if thats what it takes to get change.

 

[skins island connection]

On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 6:02 PM, kingdaddy said:

He's going to be the highest paid player in the NFL if he hits free agency. I would bet a lot of money that he gets what he wants and probably more.

 

 It's not set in stone yet. There is a slight chance that no team ends up signing him; at least at the salary he thinks he is worth.

 He's already said he would take less in order to be a winner, but that removes the majority of possibilities. He may end up signing for less with the Jets of all teams, despite what numbers are being thrown around. KC and his agent, with their better-than-thou attitude, are getting brash about his wants and likes and could scasre off a lot of suitors.

[RandyHolt]

I hope he gets squeezed and settles for less than he expects. It's not just about him.  

 

I don't like that the next free agent QB is automatically the highest paid player in the league. He claims to be trying to look out for other QBs and their future dealings, but QBs are hardly underpaid and I think he is playing for his own mega payday, not others. I am not sure he stopped to realize that the more money he gets for QBs, the less all the others on his new team gets, and on ALL the other teams effected by the new bar set on the next overpaid QBs.

 

He should try playing OL RB Nose or Mike, if he thinks he deserves the most money of any player in the league.

[Est.1974]

2 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

I hope he gets squeezed and settles for less than he expects. It's not just about him.  

 

Thats when we will constantly hear how he has taken a 'discount' to play elsewhere. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Andy Benoit just on Cooley-Sheehan.  I'll ignore his tougher commentary about Alex and just focus on what Cooley and him agreed on.  On my end, the Kirk comparisons is only driven by what our offense is used to versus how it likely changes.  My point isn't a tit for tat comparison.

 

Strength over Kirk

He's really good at helping the run game and short passing game if Jay adapts his offense accordingly.  He is good with ball handling, misdirection, etc.  So if Jay brings some of the KC playbook with pre-snap motions in the attempt to confuse opponents -- it should all help.  In other words, Jay has to change his offense some.  Also adapt more read option, RPO. 

 

Weakness versus Kirk

Kirk stands in the pocket and goes through his progressions and is willing to work through traffic that's in his face.  Alex doesn't do it.   If there is a sign of danger or the 2nd read isn't open, Alex is off to the races and is scrambling. Benoit compares it to Wilson and Kaepernick in that regard but without their speed.  And neither Benoit and Cooley are impressed with what happens typically when Smith scrambles even though he has some good runs in that mix.