Alex Smith Trade Thread (Details Inside)

[purbeast]

12 hours ago, THE#1SkinFAN said:

Someone asked about my use of spruce alghin as a joke for the name our punk GM.

No they didn't.

 

Nobody asked you about that "joke" for a name.  

[XtremeFan55]

This is what the Redskins traded for.  Hope they find the find the next Adrian Peterson or it’s going to be a long season.

 

https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrEwVpN9JtabXAA7s2KnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTIzaWJqNTg1BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANlODA1MzY2MmI4MTVkZTgxNGI0ODM1Mzg3M2ZhODhjZARncG9zAzEyBGl0A2Jpbmc-?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dcheckdown%26fr%3Dipad%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D12&w=1024&h=566&imgurl=www.unsportsmanlike-conduct.com%2Fuploads%2F3%2F9%2F1%2F5%2F39153357%2F3074109_orig.png&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unsportsmanlike-conduct.com%2Fblog%2Farchives%2F09-2015&size=589.6KB&name=Blog+Archives+-+UNSPORTSMANLIKE+CONDUCT&p=checkdown&oid=e8053662b815de814b48353873fa88cd&fr2=piv-web&fr=ipad&tt=Blog+Archives+-+UNSPORTSMANLIKE+CONDUCT&b=0&ni=21&no=12&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=11su156er&sigb=12vt3lv31&sigi=1292kog6g&sigt=117jfbo9s&sign=117jfbo9s&.crumb=BXvTfvCK4BV&fr=ipad&fr2=piv-web

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, XtremeFan55 said:

This is what the Redskins traded for.  Hope they find the find the next Adrian Peterson or it’s going to be a long season.

 

https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrEwVpN9JtabXAA7s2KnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTIzaWJqNTg1BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANlODA1MzY2MmI4MTVkZTgxNGI0ODM1Mzg3M2ZhODhjZARncG9zAzEyBGl0A2Jpbmc-?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dcheckdown%26fr%3Dipad%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D12&w=1024&h=566&imgurl=www.unsportsmanlike-conduct.com%2Fuploads%2F3%2F9%2F1%2F5%2F39153357%2F3074109_orig.png&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unsportsmanlike-conduct.com%2Fblog%2Farchives%2F09-2015&size=589.6KB&name=Blog+Archives+-+UNSPORTSMANLIKE+CONDUCT&p=checkdown&oid=e8053662b815de814b48353873fa88cd&fr2=piv-web&fr=ipad&tt=Blog+Archives+-+UNSPORTSMANLIKE+CONDUCT&b=0&ni=21&no=12&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=11su156er&sigb=12vt3lv31&sigi=1292kog6g&sigt=117jfbo9s&sign=117jfbo9s&.crumb=BXvTfvCK4BV&fr=ipad&fr2=piv-web

 

Jesus. We gave up a 3rd rounder AND a player for an annoyingly long URL? WE GOT ROBBED AGAIN.

[XtremeFan55]

Compare Smith to Cousins.  Cousins led the league in air yards in 2016.

 

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/quarterback-air-yards/2016/

 

Looks like polar opposites.  No wonder Smith is a ‘safe’ quarterback who doesn’t make mistakes...he throws predominantly short 5 yd passes.

[XtremeFan55]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Jesus. We gave up a 3rd rounder AND a player for an annoyingly long URL? WE GOT ROBBED AGAIN.

 

How can a long URL be annoying when all anyone has to do is just click the darn thing?  What were you doing...reading the link first? 

[mistertim]

44 minutes ago, XtremeFan55 said:

Compare Smith to Cousins.  Cousins led the league in air yards in 2016.

 

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/quarterback-air-yards/2016/

 

Looks like polar opposites.  No wonder Smith is a ‘safe’ quarterback who doesn’t make mistakes...he throws predominantly short 5 yd passes.

 

Well, sorta makes sense that Kirk had much more air yards in 2016 seeing as how he threw the ball 117 more times than Smith. Their numbers were much closer in 2017 as far as attempts, completions, and yards. Too bad that site doesn't have 2017 yet.

[XtremeFan55]

18 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Well, sorta makes sense that Kirk had much more air yards in 2016 seeing as how he threw the ball 117 more times than Smith. Their numbers were much closer in 2017 as far as attempts, completions, and yards. Too bad that site doesn't have 2017 yet.

The number of passes attempted has nothing to do with these statistics.  The problem is that out of 272 completions Smith only had 6 at 20 yards or more.  Just 6!  You know what that means....Smith is no threat at deep passes therefore safeties and corners can play closer to the line and completely shut down our feeble running game thereby FORCING Smith to beat teams with deep passes where he is at his weakest.  Next year is going to be painful to watch.  Weak defense that may take a step back if we lose Zack Brown on top of the loss of Fuller....no running game which Smith has always depended on...no true number one wideout....a stud TE that spends most of the season injured leaving the team dependent on a 34 year old to fill the position full time...  Smith is called Captain Checkdown for a reason which makes him a safe game manager but Gruden is going to be pulling his hair out after 4 games.  Why else have two reputable coaches already given up on him.  Smith had his best season ever and he got traded for an untested rookie.  SMH

[mistertim]

9 minutes ago, XtremeFan55 said:

The number of passes attempted has nothing to do with these statistics.  The problem is that out of 272 completions Smith only had 6 at 20 yards or more.  Just 6!  You know what that means....Smith is no threat at deep passes therefore safeties and corners can play closer to the line and completely shut down our feeble running game thereby FORCING Smith to beat teams with deep passes.  Next year is going to be painful to watch.  Weak defense that may take a step back if we lose Zack Brown on top of the loss of Fuller....no running game that Smith has always depended on...no true number one wideout....a stud TE that spends most of the season injured leaving the team dependent on a 34 year old to fill the position full time...  Smith is called Captain Checkdown for a reason which makes him a safe game manager but Gruden is going to be pulling his hair out after 4 games.  Why else have two reputable coaches already given up on him.  Smith had his best season ever and he got traded for an untested rookie.  SMH

 

The ranking on that site is by air yards passing so yes attempts does factor in.

 

Anyway, take a look at 2017 20+ passing stats. Things flipped a bit. Smith was prolific and was one of the best deep passers in the league and Kirk was one of the worst. What could have happened? Could it have been that Kirk lost his big deep threat in DJax who either caught deep passes or freed up other guys on intermediates and Smith gained the exact same type of player in Hill? 

 

Kirk is just as dependent on the receiving talent around him as Smith is. 

[XtremeFan55]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

The ranking on that site is by air yards passing so yes attempts does factor in.

 

Anyway, take a look at 2017 20+ passing stats. Things flipped a bit. Smith was prolific and was one of the best deep passers in the league and Kirk was one of the worst. What could have happened? Could it have been that Kirk lost his big deep threat in DJax who either caught deep passes or freed up other guys on intermediates and Smith gained the exact same type of player in Hill? 

 

Kirk is just as dependent on the receiving talent around him as Smith is. 

Ok. Fair enough.  I will take your argument.   Smith will be playing for the Redskins next year without a D. Jackson nor Tyreek Hill to catch deeps balls.  So who is he going to throw to?  Add in a poor running game and Smith is handicapped and forced back into the dink and dunk checkdown game.  My point all along is that Cousins is superior to Smith.  Put Smith in Cousins place on the Redskins and you will end up with less production.  Put Cousins in KC and he has an better year than Smith did.  Debates can raged for months until the facts bare out the proof.  Let’s see how both quarterbacks perform next year with their new teams.  Both will be starting fresh with no experience with the receivers or coaches.  My bet is Cousins will be in the top 5....Smith down near 20...among quarterback rankings.  Peace out.

[SWFLSkins]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Well, sorta makes sense that Kirk had much more air yards in 2016 seeing as how he threw the ball 117 more times than Smith. Their numbers were much closer in 2017 as far as attempts, completions, and yards. Too bad that site doesn't have 2017 yet.

 

Yeah I will wait to pass judgement until 2018 is over, not the first few games, not 2017, 2016 either. New systems for QB's, New teams, new teammates etc. Maybe Jay much better than Reid with going down the field, or at the least past 5-10 yds. I remember Reid and his passing subs for running offense with the Eagles.  

38 minutes ago, XtremeFan55 said:

Ok. Fair enough.  I will take your argument.   Smith will be playing for the Redskins next year without a D. Jackson nor Tyreek Hill to catch deeps balls.  So who is he going to throw to?  Add in a poor running game and Smith is handicapped and forced back into the dink and dunk checkdown game.  My point all along is that Cousins is superior to Smith.  Put Smith in Cousins place on the Redskins and you will end up with less production.  Put Cousins in KC and he has an better year than Smith did.  Debates can raged for months until the facts bare out the proof.  Let’s see how both quarterbacks perform next year with their new teams.  Both will be starting fresh with no experience with the receivers or coaches.  My bet is Cousins will be in the top 5....Smith down near 20...among quarterback rankings.  Peace out.

 

I'll wait until Kirk is on a actual team before assuring his success. 

[Burgold]

1 hour ago, XtremeFan55 said:

Ok. Fair enough.  I will take your argument.   Smith will be playing for the Redskins next year without a D. Jackson nor Tyreek Hill to catch deeps balls.  So who is he going to throw to?  

I don't really get this complaint. Who would Cousins have had to throw to if he stayed? That's not complaint about Smith but about the overall roster and GM. If what your saying is that Smith is a good deep threat QB when he has a good deep threat receiver and is not good when he has slow plodding receivers... well, that ain't saying much.

 

Whatever Smith has done, it's been good enough in scheme or with team to get his teams consistently to the playoffs. Let's give our new QB some benefit of the doubt. After all, he is not the cause of Cousins leaving. He really has almost nothng to do with Cousins other than the fact that the FO and Cousins refuse to dance and both have pouted for a year and a half because they can't get their way.

[markmills67]

1 hour ago, XtremeFan55 said:

Ok. Fair enough.  I will take your argument.   Smith will be playing for the Redskins next year without a D. Jackson nor Tyreek Hill to catch deeps balls.  So who is he going to throw to?  Add in a poor running game and Smith is handicapped and forced back into the dink and dunk checkdown game.  My point all along is that Cousins is superior to Smith.  Put Smith in Cousins place on the Redskins and you will end up with less production.  Put Cousins in KC and he has an better year than Smith did.  Debates can raged for months until the facts bare out the proof.  Let’s see how both quarterbacks perform next year with their new teams.  Both will be starting fresh with no experience with the receivers or coaches.  My bet is Cousins will be in the top 5....Smith down near 20...among quarterback rankings.  Peace out.

How do you know he won't have a deep threat when we haven't even had free-agency or the draft yet?. Give them a chance.

 

HTTR 

[wit33]

These days, a solid system on offense awards said QB (or team) 4K yards and 22-26 tds. 

 

Gruden has this rolling with the skins, so Alex being an 8-20 guy (depending on team around him in said year, schedule and some luck) should do fine. 

[I Love The Skins]

2 hours ago, XtremeFan55 said:

Ok. Fair enough.  I will take your argument.   Smith will be playing for the Redskins next year without a D. Jackson nor Tyreek Hill to catch deeps balls.  So who is he going to throw to?  Add in a poor running game and Smith is handicapped and forced back into the dink and dunk checkdown game.  My point all along is that Cousins is superior to Smith.  Put Smith in Cousins place on the Redskins and you will end up with less production.  Put Cousins in KC and he has an better year than Smith did.  Debates can raged for months until the facts bare out the proof.  Let’s see how both quarterbacks perform next year with their new teams.  Both will be starting fresh with no experience with the receivers or coaches.  My bet is Cousins will be in the top 5....Smith down near 20...among quarterback rankings.  Peace out.

That can't say that because  FA and the draft hasn't happened yet. Let's see what happen then and during the season before we pass judgement.

[Est.1974]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

These days, a solid system on offense awards said QB (or team) 4K yards and 22-26 tds. 

 

Gruden has this rolling with the skins, so Alex being an 8-20 guy (depending on team around him in said year, schedule and some luck) should do fine. 

 

Doug Williams basically said that in interview, which I also brought up a couple days back. On the discussion points on RBs, he straight up said Jays systems gets you 4K yards in the air, we just need a running game to get the rest.

 

They trust Grudens system enough to get people open and therefore have forfeited the notion we need a QB on elite money. Time will tell if that is a good call or not. Seems logical on face value though.

 

 

[skinny21]

I’ll be honest, I hated the trade, hated we couldn’t sign Kirk to a LTD, and I think Cousins is a better QB than Smith (and has room to develop further).  I could go on, but you get the idea.  

 

With that all said, I like Smith.  I think he meshes well with this offense.  If he can be effective in the RZ, he could really pay dividends for us.  He has his faults, as did Cousins (though I liked that Cousins seemed to improve on his), but I think those faults can be worked around.  

 

My concern mostly now centers around can Smith elevate the team.  Cousins had some rough games, but I feel like he took a team with numerous issues and (for the most part) got the most out of them.  So my hope is that the FO gives some help to the D, adds a few pieces on offense, and we can finally have a well rounded team.  If we do that, (it’s a tall order, especially for this FO) I think we can have a lot of success with Smith.  

[kingdaddy]

Smith will chuck it down field, Gruden will see to that. Just gotta get him another weapon or two at WR and in the backfield. By the way, there are worse options than checking it down to Chris Thompson for those of you who call him Captain Checkdown. The more touches for CT the better our offense. 

[88Comrade2000]

I'm already on the record saying I believe that the team will not be successful in 2018.  I could be wrong of course, but if I am right; the Skins will be looking for a new coach in 2019.

 

So, to make sure Alex is successful here; we will need a coach from where he had some success.  The next coach of the Redskins should come from either the Andy Reid or Jim Harbaugh coaching tree.

[pjfootballer]

^^ Going out on a limb I see.  

[Wyvern]

On 3/4/2018 at 10:00 AM, mistertim said:

Anyway, take a look at 2017 20+ passing stats. Things flipped a bit. Smith was prolific and was one of the best deep passers in the league and Kirk was one of the worst. What could have happened? Could it have been that Kirk lost his big deep threat in DJax who either caught deep passes or freed up other guys on intermediates and Smith gained the exact same type of player in Hill? 

 

Kirk is just as dependent on the receiving talent around him as Smith is. 

Mistertim -- I don't think you can compare QBs' passing stats, under two very different sets of  circumstances, and then use that to conclude that Smith's heretofore non-existent long passing game is the same or better than Cousins.  It's a bit of a stretch.  

 

Below are some comments that could serve to round of your preliminary conclusion:

 

--Losing a deep threat like Jackson doesn't adequately describe the attrition in the Skins receiving corps.  Almost none of the Skins WRs were reliable in getting separation and/or going deep  --including '50-50' Doctson, the only real "deep" threat among the Skins receivers.

 

--The Skins O-line was patchwork and porous -- Cousins was under pressure all season and really didn't have much time to wait for his mediocre WRs to get separation, much less spot them when they did, and wind up for a deep pass to them.  

 

--The Chiefs O-line and running game gave Smith a much better situation, he had time to pick and choose his opportunities for the long pass -- and Hill had conditions to get clear separation on simple deep patterns.

 

--Smith has Travis Kelce, Cousins had Reid on the bench.  Don't overlook how all-pro TE play is important to creating deep opportunities for other receivers.

 

--Smith had Hunt and a very threatening running game that slowed down the pass rush, stacked more folks closely into the box, pulled in safeties to double Kelce, and create opportunities for Chief's WR to break free deep.  

 

--Compare the two teams-- Chiefs were a well-rounded playoff team, and the Skins were a one-dimensional team with no line, no running-game, no serious TE threat, Grant as their best WR, slipshod special teams, and an unreliable defense.

 

--Historically, Smith has has other "deep threat" WRs (Bowe, Maclin) and wasn't that productive with them

 

--Jackson did not have that good of a year with Winston throwing to him;  

 

I do happen to think that Smith might be a better deep passer than everyone thinks, and maybe the Skins will discover that -- assuming they provide him with more talent.  So, time will tell on Smith. .... However, Cousins has already proved he has the long pass, assuming he's got time to throw one without falling backwards in the face of defenders bearing in on him..  

[mistertim]

@WyvernYour post would be taken a a bit better as a well thought out (and it certainly seems to be) response if you didn't start it out with the whole "I get that you're anti-Kirk" thing. 

 

Either way, my entire point is that Kirk relies on having good pass catchers around him as well which you basically reiterated for me. If he doesn't have the deep threat there and doesn't have other good WRs or TEs then he isn't going to be throwing the deep ball as much. And another issue last year is that he just wasn't accurate with his deep ball when he DID throw it. We all saw it and the completion percentages show it as well. 

 

As far as an OL, yes we obviously had a patchwork OL during a decent amount of the season but don't try to make it seem like Smith had some insane OL that never let pressure get to him. He was sacked 35 times to Kirk's 41. And that's also with Smith being a guy who's pretty decent at evading pressure and getting out of the pocket when need be. So he wasn't taking the snap every time and just lackadaisically sitting back there scanning the field for 6 or 7 seconds every snap. Hell, WE sacked him 4 friggin times.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, skinny21 said:

I’ll be honest, I hated the trade, hated we couldn’t sign Kirk to a LTD, and I think Cousins is a better QB than Smith (and has room to develop further).  I could go on, but you get the idea.  

 

With that all said, I like Smith.  I think he meshes well with this offense.  If he can be effective in the RZ, he could really pay dividends for us.  He has his faults, as did Cousins (though I liked that Cousins seemed to improve on his), but I think those faults can be worked around.  

 

My concern mostly now centers around can Smith elevate the team.  Cousins had some rough games, but I feel like he took a team with numerous issues and (for the most part) got the most out of them.  So my hope is that the FO gives some help to the D, adds a few pieces on offense, and we can finally have a well rounded team.  If we do that, (it’s a tall order, especially for this FO) I think we can have a lot of success with Smith.  

 

I think Alex Smith should be an interesting challenge for Jay.  The more I learn about Alex the more I am convinced this offense needs to change to suit his skills.  A lot more pre-snap movement.  The running game having a more element of misdirection than it does now.  Much more run pass options.   In short, our offense I think needs to look more like the Chiefs does.  I think Jay is up to the challenge. 

 

Cousins had more on his plate than Alex.   Alex didn't throw as much Kirk and pretty much had a constant top 10 running game.  It's part of the reason why I am clamoring for a top tier running back in the draft.

 

I know some don't like Kirk and to each their own on that.  Personally, I think Kirk though is a super nice guy-classy dude.  I've met him twice including in the process of having my kids doing his QB camp.  Kirk interacting with my kids among others actually made an ESPN interview with him a year or so ago.   Classy dude.  Bruce had Kirk in the building and struggled to pronounce his name. Kirk within 2 minutes of meeting my kids, recalled their names though out the whole camp. 

 

Normally that's not a big deal to me.  Jerk, nice guy whatever -- I want to win.   But for me Dan-Bruce don't always exude the qualities of class-niceness.  So I liked among other things having a player on the forefront that was a cool dude.  I am saying this on this thread purely for this reason -- Alex Smith is a different cat from Kirk but he's every bit the classy dude that Kirk is.  Again, normally I wouldn't care.  But for me for this specific organization, I like to have some likable guys on the forefront.  Jay is classy cool dude IMO.  Alex Smith, ditto. 

[Wyvern]

Thanks.  I'll retract the 'anti-Kirk' part -- because it wasn't really relevant.  (In my defense, having read your posts for a long time, I've gotten the impression you do not usually accentuate many of Cousins' positives, your commentary tends towards the opposite.) Still, I'll go ahead and edit out that part.

 

The rest of your post, I still don't agree.  And candidly, if your view of these last couple of seasons' games are that far apart from mine-- it's probably better we just post our thoughts and leave it at that.

 

A few thoughts on the your comments regarding my post:

 

Sure, there were games when Smith did look pedestrian when pressure was getting to him, and the running game wasn't clicking.  But over all, the Chiefs' O-line remained in better shape than the Skins -- the Chiefs' running game, TE play, etc.,  did help Smith out.

 

As for Cousins being inaccurate on long passes, that could be the results of many factors, not just the QB.  As you know,  QB hurries, QB pressures, knock-downs and accumulated hits on the QB ... these all defensive goals that negatively impact the quality of a QB's delivery of a long pass.  (As does throwing to new, untried, and unfamiliar WRs, still learning their craft.)

 

Still, let's agree to disagree.   Meanwhile I think we can both acknowledge how the whole team -- not just wide receivers -- can make an impact a QBs performance, including the long-passing game.

 

Last comment: Honestly, I still sense frustrations stemming from fans' over-expectations on how far Cousins could take this injury-riddled Redskins team to the 'promised land'.  When it didn't happen, many then decided it was the QB to blame.  For me, it the absence of a reliable running attack, that meant the 2017 Skins weren't going to fare well, especially since their defense couldn't hold up.

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Something I’ve been seeing of late is that the Chiefs line wasn’t so hot and that Alex is also great at avoiding the pressure.  Alex can certainly evade pressure pretty well, we saw that on display for ourselves.  But he also has a tendency to see pressure that isn’t there and bails early. He’s not the type that’s going to stand in there, brace for collision, and deliver a dime.  At least in what I’ve watched of him combined with what I’ve heard and read over the last month.

[clskinsfan]

8 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Something I’ve been seeing of late is that the Chiefs line wasn’t so hot and that Alex is also great at avoiding the pressure.  Alex can certainly evade pressure pretty well, we saw that on display for ourselves.  But he also has a tendency to see pressure that isn’t there and bails early. He’s not the type that’s going to stand in there, brace for collision, and deliver a dime.  At least in what I’ve watched of him combined with what I’ve heard and read over the last month.

 

No he isnt. But the trade off on that is he will get you first downs consistently with his feet. He has to be one of the most frustrating QB's in the league to gameplan against in that regard.