Alex Smith Trade Thread (Details Inside)

[goskins10]

2 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

He himself has said essentially there was no scenario in which he signed a LTD last off-season. He didn't even counter; that corroborates that message. He was adamant about hitting FA. I don't blame him, but that also means it was the right call to trade for Smith. To be clear, he WILL get offers at $30M or more-- I, however, think that is overpayment for him. I wouldn't give one of those offers. And I'm glad our management agreed (however they got to that conclusion-- smartly or through dumb luck).

 

He said that at the very end just days before the July deadline.  They were looking for a more realistic offer. Nothing came so a few days before the July deadline he made that decision. They had all kinds of time to sign him. By omitting the timing you are atrmptung to change the facts.   

 

I find it interesting that now every word by him that supports the narrative is gospel where before when it didn’t fit you had all kinds reasons why kirk detractors didn’t believe him.   

[joeken24]

2 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Please at least get the facts straight.  Kirk is 29. He will just barely be 30 when the season starts   

 

Not even wasting my time with the nfl.com silliness. Most cannot tell their ass from a hole in the ground.  

Missed the age. He is 29. 

 

But are you saying Charlie Casserly can't tell his ass from a hole in the ground? Maybe you can provide some analysis based on the film and the people you know in the industry. 

[CapsSkins]

2 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

He said that at the very end just days before the July deadline.  They were looking for a more realistic offer. Nothing came so a few days before the July deadline he made that decision. They had all kinds of time to sign him. By omitting the timing you are atrmptung to change the facts.   

 

I find it interesting that now every word by him that supports the narrative is gospel where before when it didn’t fit you had all kinds reasons why kirk detractors didn’t believe him.   

 

It's not just his words. It's that he didn't counter. If he were motivated to get a deal done he'd have countered, even an absurdly high counter would have sent a differentially more positive message.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

9 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

It's not just his words. It's that he didn't counter. If he were motivated to get a deal done he'd have countered, even an absurdly high counter would have sent a differentially more positive message.

Not if by that point there wasn't a dollar figure that he'd sign for.  There is a huge stretch of time between New Years and Memorial Day when the offer was presented.   A lot of stuff went on.  Apparently enough to make the guy second guess whether he wanted to be here long term and you can see the choice he made.  

 

Folks can choose to believe whatever they want about why that is but it's disingenuous for folks to keep up with this wouldn't negotiate for two years business.  

[CapsSkins]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Not if by that point there wasn't a dollar figure that he'd sign for.  There is a huge stretch of time between New Years and Memorial Day when the offer was presented.   A lot of stuff went on.  Apparently enough to make the guy second guess whether he wanted to be here long term and you can see the choice he made.  

 

Folks can choose to believe whatever they want about why that is but it's disingenuous for folks to keep up with this wouldn't negotiate for two years business.  

 

I don't think the FO played this particularly well-- I think Scot had the right mindset: give him that deal in 2015, but as the price tag went up back off. I just don't think the FO are buffoons for letting this situation play out the way it did. The ultimate outcome I actually think is decent... especially if the Garoppolo deal helps push through a tag-and-trade scenario

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, joeken24 said:

Missed the age. He is 29. 

 

But are you saying Charlie Casserly can't tell his ass from a hole in the ground? Maybe you can provide some analysis based on the film and the people you know in the industry. 

 

Yes, I am saying Charlie Casserly is a ****ing idiot. He about destroyed this team. His analysis so far that I have seen has been mostly garbage. I don't need to know anyone in the industry to know he is ****ing moron. He proves it most every time he talks. 

[Hooper]

Don't be surprised when Kirk takes less than people think -- maybe way less -- and signs with the Vikings.

 

He just didn't want to play for the Skins because of Dan and Bruce. No amount of money was going to change that. He thinks they're bad at their jobs -- hard to argue that -- and probably doesn't think much of them as people either. 

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, CapsSkins said:

 

It's not just his words. It's that he didn't counter. If he were motivated to get a deal done he'd have countered, even an absurdly high counter would have sent a differentially more positive message.

 

Ok, once again - if I am selling a car that I think is worth $10,000 and someone gives me a $6,000 offer I am not wasting my time with them. And if that person really wants that car they will at least make one more attempt. Bruce should have made at least one more attempt or at least asked them what will it take. Now you can argue whether you think the teams offer was that low, but clearly they felt it was that low.From all accounts - and I am relying on @Skinsinparadise for much of this as I am not sure anyone has followed things more closely - they made one offer then never got back to Kirk's camp to ask them about the deal. They just waited. 

 

I have stated before I would like to have seen Kirk make some kind of offer. But to take that as some sign he "had no intention of signing a LTD" is a huge leap without facts. All during that period, right up to when he decide not to counter he was saying that he really wanted to be in Washington and build something. That he hoped they could work something out. But you are conveniently ignoring the many times he said that and latching onto the last minute statement he made that he decided not to counter.  I do agree the whole God told me not to thing is BS. In a different lifetime I sold cars and every time someone told me they had to go home and pray about getting the car, they came back the next day saying that "God told me to buy the car if I can get it for XXXX less $." He never once said, hey that's a great deal go for it! 

 

I digress - I disagree with those saying Kirk is completely innocent. But Bruce and the Redskins own about 90% of it. 

 

This is not directed at you at all since we just started this conversation - but this topic has run it's course for me. People will believe what they want to believe. The only thing that really matters to me now if that the Kirk drama should be over unless the FO does something really stupid and tags him. I am really ready to move on to the Alex Smith phase. As I said right from day one - I do not hate the trade at all. What I hate is that it got to this point and we have a 4 yr older guy and lost a young CB for the same money would could have had Kirk last year - or at least they should have put his feet to the fire. 

 

But having Alex Smith as our QB is not a bad thing at all. I like the guy. Very cerebral, decent accuracy. Makes less mistake but is not as aggressive. It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out. Will they get him a RB? A WR? A new TE? Sorry Reed can;t stay healthy and Davis will run out of steam sooner or later. He is on borrowed time. 

[Tsailand]

1 hour ago, Hooper said:

Don't be surprised when Kirk takes less than people think -- maybe way less -- and signs with the Vikings.

 

Don't be surprised when Kirk takes more money than Jimmy G but the contract is structured so the cap hit is under 20M/year for the first few seasons.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

i think a lot of people would rather have the guy that instantly made his team a contender and was tutored by the goat than a perennial 8-8 qb who puts up great numbers but makes questionable at best decisions when it counts,

 

 

 

[Est.1974]

The Jags and Browns can probably wait for Kirk a bit longer. They are loaded with cap space so they can still happily purge FA whilst we play games with Kirk on the tag. Others can't.

 

If Denver or Minny want Kirk that needs to be sorted in principle before FA. The point is made that if we tag Kirk, we are out of FA for the time being. Well, so would some of his suitors. They would have to defer spending until they knew if they were or weren't getting him. It's pretty important to Denver for example to know if they will have Kirks millions going through the book at the start of FA. They also can't sign players otherwise......

 

It will be concluded before FA starts and someone is giving us something for him. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

Ok, once again - if I am selling a car that I think is worth $10,000 and someone gives me a $6,000 offer I am not wasting my time with them. And if that person really wants that car they will at least make one more attempt. Bruce should have made at least one more attempt or at least asked them what will it take. Now you can argue whether you think the teams offer was that low, but clearly they felt it was that low.From all accounts - and I am relying on @Skinsinparadise for much of this as I am not sure anyone has followed things more closely - they made one offer then never got back to Kirk's camp to ask them about the deal. They just waited. 

 

Did you steal that car metaphor form me? I've used an almost identical one a couple of times. 

 

As I recall, the other thing reported was that Bruce told Kirk there would be another offer before the deadline and then just sent the same offer again. 

 

The fact is, Kirk was a major asset. We likely could have traded him for more than a 1st round pick last year, or signed him for a high, but reasonable, price. Bruce Allen chose to do neither. He, as GM,  and this can't be emphasized enough, CHOSE to let that asset turn into a big nothing for his team. He instead chose to make it into a PR campaign on his behalf. He wouldn't listen to trade offers, wouldn't make a legit contract offer, structured the offer he made so that he could falsely claim it was "the most guaranteed money ever" when he included Franchise tag money that Cousins was already guaranteed, he smeared his own QB in the press before the season started. None of that is what you do for the good of your team, it's what you do when your only concern is spin.

 

He chose to get nothing for him and then traded away assets to get an older, fairly comparable replacement. 

 

People keep asking how and why this team keeps being dysfunctional and what can be done about it. Then you see the board full of people regurgitating the spin that "Kirk wouldn't negotiate" or "he didn't want to be here". You see how people congratulate Bruce and Co for "getting something" and brush past criticism of the handling of the Cousins situation and argue that this will all be for the best.

 

And then it's pretty easy to see why the crap from this team continues. And will continue.

[goskins10]

7 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Did you steal that car metaphor form me? I've used an almost identical one a couple of times. 

 

As I recall, the other thing reported was that Bruce told Kirk there would be another offer before the deadline and then just sent the same offer again. 

 

The fact is, Kirk was a major asset. We likely could have traded him for more than a 1st round pick last year, or signed him for a high, but reasonable, price. Bruce Allen chose to do neither. He, as GM,  and this can't be emphasized enough, CHOSE to let that asset turn into a big nothing for his team. He instead chose to make it into a PR campaign on his behalf. He wouldn't listen to trade offers, wouldn't make a legit contract offer, structured the offer he made so that he could falsely claim it was "the most guaranteed money ever" when he included Franchise tag money that Cousins was already guaranteed, he smeared his own QB in the press before the season started. None of that is what you do for the good of your team, it's what you do when your only concern is spin.

 

He chose to get nothing for him and then traded away assets to get an older, fairly comparable replacement. 

 

People keep asking how and why this team keeps being dysfunctional and what can be done about it. Then you see the board full of people regurgitating the spin that "Kirk wouldn't negotiate" or "he didn't want to be here". You see how people congratulate Bruce and Co for "getting something" and brush past criticism of the handling of the Cousins situation and argue that this will all be for the best.

 

And then it's pretty easy to see why the crap from this team continues. And will continue.

 

Any copy was incidental.  I actually sold cars in a different life so I use it often. Either way it’s a good analogy.  ??

 

You must have copied me on the no compensation.  Just kidding. Many of us including you earlier have pointed it out.  

 

Bruce Allen has managed to not only not get kirk locked up to a Ltd he did things the only way possible that the team not only do not have Kirk they get nothing in return for him!  The hottest commodity in the nfl and Bruce gets nothing!  Even if people want to pin all this on kirk - not really seeing if myself but whatever - you have to get something!  No he figures out a way to get nothing except maybe a 3rd rd comp pick. Sorry, but to me that is the definition of incompetence. 

[SkinsFTW]

57 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 hottest commodity in the nfl and Bruce gets nothing!  Even if people want to pin all this on kirk - not really seeing if myself but whatever - you have to get something!  

 

And not only that but the they figured out a way to cost the team 2 high round draft picks (Fuller gets us at least a 2nd) on a replacement for another QB that the trading team didn't even want.

 

And these are the same guys that voluntarily bent over for Andy Reid the last time he was done with his starting qb. 

 

That's why I am sure they won't get a comp pick for Cousins. They're going to go big in FA. If this bombs like McNugget did it'll be another instance of the Redskins topping their previous dumbest move in league history.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bowhunter]

We've all seen the gnashing of teeth for the loss of Kyle Fuller, and deservedly so. Had Allen traded away Cousins for a first last year, the implosion of this franchise would have been real. I really don't think would have been a viable option. No one could foresee the incredible amount of devastating injuries that we carried across of entire roster.  In my mind, I like to think that 2017 was the year that Bruce and KC could watch us grow into a legitimate contender where a LTD would be mutually beneficial That didn't happen, but we did have a chance of that occurring, and that would be a better option than trading away KC for a first.

   Once that failed, Allen was at least capable of securing us an equal or better QB at a much more reasonable price for several years. What he did not do was trade away our future to move up in this years draft to select the next shiny toy. Lord knows how this franchise has been accused of that in the past. Whether a cheap deal should have been secured in 2015 or 16 can and will be debated ad nauseum. But given the current situation and the outcome of the 2017 body bag team, I think it's at least fair to acknowledge that maybe BA hasn't been as totally incompetent as he could be. We have most of our draft picks, significant cap space, and a decent talent base to work with. Allen is FAR from the best football mind out there, but even in hindsight, I don't think trading away Cousins for a 1st round pick last year would have been what any great GM would have done. We dated our old sweetheart one more time before realizing that it was time to move on, just to be sure.

   

[Voice_of_Reason]

As I’ve said before, it takes two to tango and I don’t really side wanted to tango.  Bruce didn’t want to spend the money and Kirk didn’t really want to be here.  

 

The problem is that with just a little foresight, you could have made better decisions.  They should have taken a chance on him in the 2016 off season, giving him 19 million guaranteeing 44 to 50 in the first 2 or 3 years of for no other reason than there was no plan B immediately available.  

 

After not doing that, they should have traded him last off season when it was obvious a long term deal wasn’t possible.

 

But Bruce has no foresight.  So here we are.

 

Kirk is probably going to get more than Jimmy.  I’m not sure either one is worth it. 

[Riggo#44]

16 hours ago, Darc Requiem said:

 

Flacco showed that first. He wanted 18 million a year. The Ravens offered 16 million. He wins the Super Bowl and gets 20 million and he's been cashing in on that every since. 

 

This is something I've been thinking about actually, during the whole Cousins saga: Would you rather let a Cousins walk, or pay a Joe Flacco?

[Voice_of_Reason]

@bowhunter I kinda disagree.  If Allen trades Kirk last off season and simply says “look, we knew we were never going g to agree on a long term deal, so we had to move on and make the best of a bad situation” I think most folks would have gotten it.  Would he have taken some heat for not signing Kirk and letting him get away?  Yeah.  But when Kirk signed the 130+ million dollar deal, I think most folks would be willing to concede that he might not be worth that, and it was ok to move on.

 

Theres no way everybody would be happy.  If they signed him in 2016 for 19 mil a year, a lot of people would have said we overpaid then.

 

1 minute ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

This is something I've been thinking about actually, during the whole Cousins saga: Would you rather let a Cousins walk, or pay a Joe Flacco?

Flacco has a track record of playing extremely well in big games.  

 

He he hasn’t had the same level of talent around him the last couple of years.  

 

Shrug.  You pay a SB winning QB who played exceptionally well in the playoffs multiple times.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

39 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

The problem is that with just a little foresight, you could have made better decisions.  They should have taken a chance on him in the 2016 off season, giving him 19 million guaranteeing 44 to 50 in the first 2 or 3 years of for no other reason than there was no plan B immediately available.  

 

Not only that, but they left McCartney's 19M offer on the table without a response.  I keep seeing Kirk get killed for not countering last summer.  But apparently this was okay for Bruce because they along with some fans weren't sold after 2015.  Yet it would appear that Kirk didn't counter because he also wasn't sold on what Bruce was selling.  Add in that wet fart of a press release from Bruce thereafter, followed by a bad season, where the relationship between the two got no better, and it's pretty easy to see why we are where we are today.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Not only that, but they left McCartney's 19M offer on the table without a response.  I keep seeing Kirk get killed for not countering last summer.  But apparently this was okay for Bruce because they along with some fans weren't sold after 2015.  Yet it would appear that Kirk didn't counter because he also wasn't sold on what Bruce was selling.  Add in that wet fart of a press release from Bruce thereafter, followed by a bad season, where the relationship between the two got no better, and it's pretty easy to see why we are where we are today.

Yeah, the thing is I don’t think they were willing to go above the original offer.  So they couldn’t really counter.  

 

Thats when a deal breaks down.  I think the Skins were offering 16 and Kirks side wanted 19.  The counter really was “No we don’t like 19.  Or anything over 16.  So we’ll give you 20!”

 

Which was just dumb squared. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Just now, Voice_of_Reason said:

Yeah, the thing is I don’t think they were willing to go above the original offer.  So they couldn’t really counter.  

 

Thats when a deal breaks down.  I think the Skins were offering 16 and Kirks side wanted 19.  The counter really was “No we don’t like 19.  Or anything over 16.  So we’ll give you 20!”

 

Which was just dumb squared. 

It basically said "we think your hot streak was luck and we expect you to prove us right next season, even if it costs us 20M to do so".

[SWFLSkins]

51 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

As I’ve said before, it takes two to tango and I don’t really side wanted to tango.  Bruce didn’t want to spend the money and Kirk didn’t really want to be here.  

 

The problem is that with just a little foresight, you could have made better decisions.  They should have taken a chance on him in the 2016 off season, giving him 19 million guaranteeing 44 to 50 in the first 2 or 3 years of for no other reason than there was no plan B immediately available.  

 

After not doing that, they should have traded him last off season when it was obvious a long term deal wasn’t possible.

 

But Bruce has no foresight.  So here we are.

 

Kirk is probably going to get more than Jimmy.  I’m not sure either one is worth it. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, CapsSkins said:

@Skinsinparadise It's funny you bring up blockbuster movies because my job is valuing content for Netflix.

 

That's cool.  Eons ago I got a degree in financial planning.  I invest a little here and there. But I am no professional.  Netfllx is my biggest holding.  Got the stock well before it went on the big ride.  Best investment I've ever made by a mile.  So I have kind thoughts about Netflix. 

 

I thought it was ironic weeks back that Kramer on CNBC was citing a company's mismanagement.  And used the Redskins of all teams as an analogy that viewers would understand as an NFL team that is likewise notorious for mismanagement.

 

I am listening to 980 right now. Ironically they are talking about how SF likely learned from Bruce's mistakes.  They are saying (like I did) there are no options where Bruce managed this well.  He could have bought Netflix when it was a cheaper price and realized its potential before it boomed versus now you have to pay $250 a share.  Bruce is an insider, if anyone should know that his shares are going to jump from $150 to $250 should be Bruce.

 

And if he thinks the stock is overvalued and he wants to dump it -- dump it for a profit in 2017.  Get trade value.  It was IMO a royal screw up anyway you cut it.

 

And for me to buy that this is the same "genius" we should trust and is just smarter than the rest of the NFL.   We are talking about Bruce needing to have vision.  He has already shown atrocious vision on the Kirk contract anyway you cut it whether its keeping him or cutting bait.

 

10 hours ago, CapsSkins said:

To be clear, I'm not saying Bruce Allen is a genius or that he's making decisions for the right reasons. That being said, I'm pretty sure Eric Schaffer is the kind

 

From what just about everyone is saying, Bruce not Schaffer is setting the parameters.  Schaffer's job is to fit those parameters into the cap.  Schaffer by most accounts is smart and classy.  As for Bruce both points at the very least are questioned.  His track record specifically when it comes to winning or for that matter the QB position is comically bad.  You wouldn't find a dude like that lasting running a company like Netflix for 3 weeks let alone 9 years. 

 

 

Jason La Canfora‏Verified account @JasonLaCanfora Jan 30

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Many would say the Skins are perpetually doomed as long as Bruce Allen controls flow of money/assets in DC. And I would wholeheartedly agree

 

10 hours ago, CapsSkins said:

Look, I'd rather have had Kirk at $19M than Alex Smith at $23M, but I'd MUCH rather have Alex Smith at $23M than Kirk at $30M+.

 

 

I get the logic there.  But I don't get how anyone can look at the decision maker on this and just land on that page without considering what got them there.  Again, if Bruce was a CEO, he would have been canned and said stock would have soared the next day out of glee.  

 

He didn't only buy Alex at a more expensive price.  Here's what else happened

 

A. he likely alienated his team's top asset via his behavior

B. he tried to turn the fan base against his top asset -- to call that strange would be an understatement

C. he likely gets nothing for the team's top asset -- when he could have a year before

D. He got 4 years older and arguably slightly worse at QB

E. He gave up a high third round pick and his top young defender to downgrade both at the position and its age.

F. At some point soon they now have to use a top asset -- likely a first round pick at the QB position -- wouldn't have to do it otherwise

 

10 hours ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Regardless, from last off-season on Kirk has been adamant about hitting FA. As his market value has continued to increase, as well as the risk of him leaving, he priced himself out of staying in Washington. Given that situation, we did the best thing we could which was to acquire a guy like Smith and lock him up. Stability and Pro Bowl-caliber QB play at a cap % that is in-line with the above table. That to me is an above average outcome to a bad set of cards, even if losing Kendall stings.

 

 

 

The whole thing is IMO to say we did the best we could -- that to me is beyond wrong, its a joke.  It's like saying the Redskins made the best of the Albert Haynesworth situation by getting a 5th round pick from the Patriots.  Lets judge the whole transaction that way.  Don't you think they did good with getting the 5th rounder?  Some people were saying we'd get nothing for the dude -- but hey at least we were smart about how we ended.  Dude, lets just focus on that.  Yeah if we are going to squarely look at a bad deal by zoning in what they salvaged at the end -- you got it.   

 

But the whole picture of how they dealt with their asset.  What they could have paid?  What they could have gotten for the asset if they didn't want it or think they can keep it, etc.  I agree with the beat guys who covered the story - they earn an F for the whole drill.

 

If we are talking purely the Alex Smith deal and none of the other stuff ever happened.  I'd give it a C on that transaction alone. At this point, they were likely out of options because of their own mismanagement and dumb behavior.  With that frame work, I am ok with the deal.   I'll put money that I will end up one of the top 20 fans of the dude defending him on a future Alex Smith thread --if some people remain consistent about what they think the QB is responsible for as to wins and loses.

 

 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I'd like to work for the "we made the best out of it" crew.  Anyone hiring? 

[bowhunter]

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I'd like to work for the "we made the best out of it" crew.  Anyone hiring? 

You wouldn't happen to be from Tampa would ya?