Alex Smith Trade Thread (Details Inside)

[redskin301]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/02/10/will-kirk-cousins-next-contract-tie-compensation-to-cap-percentage/

I was a big KC supporter but now the real KC comes out he’s the most money hungry QB I’ve ever seen and what’s worse he plays it off like he wants to win but it looks like he doesn’t it’s all about the money for Kirk I hope he goes to the Browns and he can take his loser record and his stat padding with him

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

I think that's fair though I'd put the marker at making the playoffs. After all, I'm not sure we get to the playoffs in 2018 with Kirk and I think he's a shade better than Alex. In fact, I think we are slightly more likely to reach the playoffs this year despite Smith being a somewhat inferior player because we aren't burdened by the cap eaten up by a 34 million dollar contract. And let's be honest, that 34 Franchise tag was the only way Kirk would have played here and so that and the player losses that come with it have to be factored in.

 

Weeks back when it looked clear that Kirk is unlikely coming back, I posted more or less this as what I perceived to be the options

 

A. Offer Kirk a competitive LTC.  If he turns it down so be it.  At least you can reclaim the narrative that Kirk actually did turn down a market deal.  They can never say that now -- every beat reporter covering this story has said the same -- that is, Kirk could walk away and genuinely said he never got a competitive offer.

 

B.  If Kirk turns down or ignores the LTC, look at the draft.  Go young.  Run with Colt and go cheap.  Play out  most of the anti-Kirk's fantasies of building this monster defense with all the mega cap room.  Groom the next guy.  I didn't love this option but there is some future oriented logic to it that made sense to me.  And I said so, then.

 

C.  I said I didn't like the idea of trading for a veteran.  Getting older at the position, losing Kirk and losing draft capital?  Yuck.  And that was before I had a notion that they could lose a high pick and ALSO a young player to boot.

 

D.  Just sign another FA.  At least you aren't losing draft capital.  Treading water without going seriously backwards depending on who you sign.

 

 

You are presenting this as a choice between

 

F. 34 million tag.  Something I was opposed to.  And option C. 

 

That to me is a false choice.  Yeah if it was between a tag and trading for a veteran.  I am with you but those weren't the only choices.  Heck if you are going to trade draft capital -- then trade up in the draft.   This isn't some retrospect opinion for me.  I said this weeks before the Alex Smith trade.  So they played this out IMO in the worst way. 

 

So I am not pretending I like it now.  I said then what Plan B I'd like.  And its not this.  This is my least favorite Plan B.  Doesn't mean I am right.  Just my take. And I like Alex Smith but I can't pretend that I didn't realize what they gave up for him and what they might get for Kirk in return.   I used to just get caught up in the hype.   Hey we got McNabb who cares what we gave up.  We got older.  We lost some draft capital but so what, I'm excited!   I've been down that road and I'm a more cynical consumer of this stuff now because I've seen how it plays out.

 

And judging by what some beat guys have said -- politics have played into this decision including:

 

1.  Jay's leash -- maybe Bruce's leash

2. The public perception of what would happen if they traded up in the draft again and got it wrong again.

 

I hate that type of thinking but accept its par for the course with this organization.

 

44 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

A super bowl win this year or next lol This is a long shot for even the Patriots to accomplish. The fan base is starving for relevancy and being in playoffs, let’s start there. 

 

 

 

That's totally out of context as to my point.  If you read my posts carefully you'll see that the point referred to the old versus young context of the trade -- and from that stand point why I didn't like it.  From that stand point, its a win now move.  Win now isn't to me 9-7.  But I even said if not a Superbowl a memorable ride of a season.  For us, we've done the one and out playoff drill every now and then -- and yeah I don't think mortgaging the future some is worth it for just that.

[Warhead36]

5 minutes ago, redskin301 said:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/02/10/will-kirk-cousins-next-contract-tie-compensation-to-cap-percentage/

I was a big KC supporter but now the real KC comes out he’s the most money hungry QB I’ve ever seen and what’s worse he plays it off like he wants to win but it looks like he doesn’t it’s all about the money for Kirk I hope he goes to the Browns and he can take his loser record and his stat padding with him

Every professional athlete is about the money. They have the most limited earning window of any profession, once that window shuts it shuts for good. Kirk should try to get every penny possible. Would you rather Dan Snyder keep the money?

[GhostofAlvinWalton]

7 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

 

The Redskins did bet on Cousins. They franchised him at 20M 

 

 

You are absolutely correct about the 20 million franchise tag...but I disagree about the 24 million tag.  They were not betting against him that year...they were desperately trying to hold on to him. The dynamic changed but the end result was the same. 

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, redskin301 said:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/02/10/will-kirk-cousins-next-contract-tie-compensation-to-cap-percentage/

I was a big KC supporter but now the real KC comes out he’s the most money hungry QB I’ve ever seen and what’s worse he plays it off like he wants to win but it looks like he doesn’t it’s all about the money for Kirk I hope he goes to the Browns and he can take his loser record and his stat padding with him

 

It's not even Kirk and his agent saying this or people talking to them both.  It's Florio speculating that Kirk could have the leverage to do this.  It's just like someone here saying on a thread that Kirk might command 34 million a year -- so Kirk's greedy because of other people's speculation about what he might do?

 

The player greedy stuff I gather would apply to any player who gets paid big.  Jimmy G is one heck of a greedy dude, too.  27.5 million?  For 5 starts?  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

Casserly doesn’t care about hurting feelings of players or coaches. Just calls it like he sees it.

 

Get off Charlies back  

He flip flops rather often to simply be speaking his mind.

[KDawg]

Still whining about the trade going on here, eh?

 

I don't get it. I don't get why many here view Kirk as some God. I don't get why many here don't like Smith when they LOVED Kirk (The two are practically interchangeable skill set wise except for age).

 

Sounds like sour grapes for the sake of sour grapes.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It's not even Kirk and his agent saying this or people talking to them both.  It's Florio speculating that Kirk could have the leverage to do this.  It's just like someone here saying on a thread that Kirk might command 34 million a year -- so Kirk's greedy because of other people's speculation about what he might do?

 

The player greedy stuff I gather would apply to any player who gets paid big.  Jimmy G is one heck of a greedy dude, too.  27.5 million?  For 5 starts?  

Even if they are trying this, I still don't see how it equates to greed.  It equates to a change in the way contracts are drawn up for players who historically get the shaft from ownership.  

 

If Dan was really worried about getting the shaft from the other 31 owners last year for making Kirk the highest paid QB, imagine how pissed they are now with where salaries are going, and potentially having to give up POC assurances in the future.  Playing the tag game was a slippery slope and of course the Skins had to be the team to attempt to climb it.  Go figure.

[SkinsFTW]

Interchangeable, yet one had a 1200 yard Rb, 1000 yd TE, and  a 1300 yard WR, and put up similar stats for the first time in 13 years to a guy who has done it 3 times in 3 years without any of the 3.

 

 

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

Interchangeable, yet one had a 1200 yard Rb, 1000 yd TE, and  a 1300 yard WR, and put up similar stats for the first time in 13 years to a guy who has done it 3 times in 3 years without any of the 3.

 

 

 

Yes. Interchangeable.

 

Watch them play. They play an extremely similar game.

 

And I guess Kirk's year with Jackson, Garcon, Crowder, Davis, Reed, Thompson and a MUCH better OL than KC's last year doesn't count, right?

[Dan73]

34 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Every professional athlete is about the money. They have the most limited earning window of any profession, once that window shuts it shuts for good. Kirk should try to get every penny possible. Would you rather Dan Snyder keep the money?

Nope not every athelete.  I have seen many players negotiate contracts to get or keep players on the team to help them win.

[Dan73]

41 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It's not even Kirk and his agent saying this or people talking to them both.  It's Florio speculating that Kirk could have the leverage to do this.  It's just like someone here saying on a thread that Kirk might command 34 million a year -- so Kirk's greedy because of other people's speculation about what he might do?

 

The player greedy stuff I gather would apply to any player who gets paid big.  Jimmy G is one heck of a greedy dude, too.  27.5 million?  For 5 starts?  

Apparently 2 years ago Kirk and his agent tried to tie his salary to the cap in negotiations. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

51 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Every professional athlete is about the money. They have the most limited earning window of any profession, once that window shuts it shuts for good. Kirk should try to get every penny possible. Would you rather Dan Snyder keep the money?

 

I was just about to post the same thing. There is absolutely nothing wrong what so ever for Kirk Cousins to be "money hungry". This is his window, he has earned the right to cash in on every penny he can earn.  

17 minutes ago, Dan73 said:

Nope not every athelete.  I have seen many players negotiate contracts to get or keep players on the team to help them win.

 

Other than Tom Brady, who has more money than he can ever spend, please show your work and provide the list of players who sacrificed their salaries for the good of the team.  

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, Dan73 said:

Apparently 2 years ago Kirk and his agent tried to tie his salary to the cap in negotiations. 

 

Kirk is one of his interviews talked about QB salaries are commensurate with cap %.  He didn't say anything that i recall about an escalating salary scale that would rise each year with the cap's rise.  Unless, I am missing an interview?  If so, I'd love to see it.  Because to me those are two different things.  That's Florio speculating about why not?  But even if it were the case in reality, I wouldn't care.

 

At this point I don't care what Kirk gets.  But I am not blaming him or any other player for what they end up getting in FA.  Good for him and any player for what they get.  As for Kirk I just don't buy the narrative that some cling to which is its all about money -- all this tension-bad blood with Bruce talked about by beat guys and national guys is nonsense and wasn't a factor in the soup at all.  But at this point, it doesn't matter.

 

My issue with the trade is if you are going with a 34 year old QB and sacrificing both your roster and draft capital to do it -- IMO its a win now move.  So they better win now.  And I like Alex Smith.  But to me is not about Alex Smith in a vacuum -- its about the full roster.  My take is if they were moving on from Kirk, then trade up to pick #5 or whatever and go get a guy.  Get young.  Get cheap.  And rebuild -- and if you get lucky in the draft it might not even be a rebuild.   According to some beat guys (especially Finlay) they did dig some of the young QBs but didn't like how it would look to trade up and get it wrong.

 

And like I said in another post, this isn't me with a fresh opinion now that the deal is done.  I said this weeks before we heard of any deal for Alex Smith.  Heck I even talked specifically of what I thought then of trading for Alex Smith.  My opinion hasn't changed now that it happened.  Having said that to each their own.  I recall my own excitement for the Brunell deal, McNabb, RG3.  I get into the new QBs initially.  So I get people getting jazzed.  So I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade.   

[PF Chang]

27 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Still whining about the trade going on here, eh?

 

I don't get it. I don't get why many here view Kirk as some God. I don't get why many here don't like Smith when they LOVED Kirk (The two are practically interchangeable skill set wise except for age).

 

Sounds like sour grapes for the sake of sour grapes.

 

It's irritating that we drafted a good QB in the 4th round and we're going to lose him because of FO incompetence. Instead we have to trade for an interchangeable player who's 4 years older and give up one of our best young defensive players.

 

The extension for Smith is at $23.5M/yr which was the kind of number that people pretended would destroy our team for years if we gave it to Cousins. 

 

Yeah it's sour grapes but I think feeling that way is justified. 

[Dan73]

3 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I was just about to post the same thing. There is absolutely nothing wrong what so ever for Kirk Cousins to be "money hungry". This is his window, he has earned the right to cash in on every penny he can earn.  

 

Other than Tom Brady, who has more money than he can ever spend, please show your work and provide the list of players who sacrificed their salaries for the good of the team.  

Ray Bourque was known to always sign team friendly deals.

 

Sean Payton gave back money to get Gregg Williams. 

Paul Kariya took a real low contract to play in Colorado.

Just to name a few.

Pay more attention so you don't need to be schooled

 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, PF Chang said:

 

It's irritating that we drafted a good QB in the 4th round and we're going to lose him because of FO incompetence. Instead we have to trade for an interchangeable player who's 4 years older and give up one of our best young defensive players.

 

The extension for Smith is at $23.5M/yr which was the kind of number that people pretended would destroy our team for years if we gave it to Cousins. 

 

Yeah it's sour grapes but I think feeling that way is justified. 

 

But the the grapes are sour because of the way the situation was handled.

 

Getting Smith was the best outcome we could have hoped for in the short term after they mishandled the whole thing, in my opinion. So, having said that, the sour shouldn't be part of a Kirk vs. Smith debate. Throw shade at the FO for their initial botch, sure. But I think they got this part right after the mega screw up. Doesn't "forgive" the mistake, but it's making the best of the bad situation.

[GhostofAlvinWalton]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

But the the grapes are sour because of the way the situation was handled.

 

Getting Smith was the best outcome we could have hoped for in the short term after they mishandled the whole thing, in my opinion. So, having said that, the sour shouldn't be part of a Kirk vs. Smith debate. Throw shade at the FO for their initial botch, sure. But I think they got this part right after the mega screw up. Doesn't "forgive" the mistake, but it's making the best of the bad situation.

 

 

*This is not directed at the posters engaging in intelligent conversation*

 

But the whining in this thread (although it has gotten better) is embarrassing. I would be disappointed if my young children acted the way some posters did in the first few (or few dozen) pages of this thread.  

 

Being disappointed about the whole situation is a normal reaction...continually complaining is just childish imo.

[Dan73]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Kirk is one of his interviews talked about QB salaries are commensurate with cap %.  He didn't say anything about an escalating scale that would rise each year with the cap's rise.  Unless, I am missing an interview. to me those are two different things.  That's Florio speculating about why not?  But even if it were the case, I wouldn't care.

 

At this point I don't care what Kirk gets.  But I am not blaming him or any other player for what they end up getting in FA.  Good for him and any player for what they get.  As for Kirk I just don't buy the narrative that some cling to which is its all about money -- all this tension-bad blood with Bruce talked about by beat guys and national guys is nonsense and wasn't a factor in the soup at all.  But at this point, it doesn't matter.

 

My issue with the trade is if you are going with a 34 year old QB and sacrificing both your roster and draft capital to do it -- IMO its a win now move.  So they better win now.  And I like Alex Smith.  But to me is not about Alex Smith in a vacuum -- its about the full roster.  My take is if they were moving on from Kirk, then trade up to pick #5 or whatever and go get a guy.  According to some beat guys (especially Finlay) they did dig some of the young QBs but didn't like how it would look to trade up and get it wrong.

 

And like I said in another post, this isn't me with a fresh opinion now that the deal is done.  I said this weeks before we heard of any deal for Alex Smith.  Heck I even talked specifically of what I thought then of trading for Alex Smith.  My opinion hasn't changed now that it happened.  Having said that to each their own.  I recall my own excitement for the Brunell deal, McNabb, RG3.  I get into the new QBs initially.  So I get people getting jazzed.  So I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade.   

The reputation of the Redskins was you go there to get paid.

 

The Redskins have shown a changed culture in that regard and a willingness to pay their own players .

 

People wanted a culture change and it takes time. If Breeland has had an attitude adjustment I hope the Skins keep him and pay him.

 

But Cousins has never struck me as being about the team it is always how much is he going to make.

[kingdaddy]

15 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

As is with every single person that brings up this scenario you are focusing only on the teams benefit and completely ignoring that if Kirk wants to test free agency and refuses to sign a LTD with anyone before then, it's no deal. And while Denver and Washington have an interest in doing something, if Kirk is not interested then it's not happening. The only possible benefit is saving the drama of being a FA. But he has already said he is looking forward to that. And before yo say it - if it's a team he wants to play with he can go there as a FA. 

Everything you say makes sense and is likely to play out that way. I doubt Bruce even tags him....we'll see how personal this really is in time. If Bruce slaps that tag on him and leaves it there for a while, even if KC doesn't sign it, we'll see who cracks first. How many teams would that scare off from waiting for the drama in DC to play out? And when I say scare off, I mean go in a different direction such as trading for Nick Foles, signing Case Keenum, dealing for AJ McCarron, signing Tyrod Taylor..etc. How long would Denver wait to see if Bruce blinks before moving on? I agree with you, just throwing a crazy scenario out there based on Bruce making it personal. 

[evmiii]

Kirk is worth whatever somebody will pay.  I certainly don't begrudge him getting every dollar he can.  Whether we admit it or not, in hindsight it has been pretty obvious for the last two years that would not come from the Redskins.  It seems by most reports his starting point for negotiations was more than the Redskins were willing to pay him.  He was gone regardless.

 

We can argue for the next 3 years whether Alex Smith is the best option vs drafting and starting over, but the Redskins made their choice and here we are.  I like the move if we draft wisely and get better. (Big IF).

 

What I do believe whole heartedly is that we are much better off with Alex and $10mil (give or take) cap space than KCand no cap space.  HTTR.

 

 

[Taylor 36]

1 hour ago, Dan73 said:

Ray Bourque was known to always sign team friendly deals.

 

Sean Payton gave back money to get Gregg Williams. 

Paul Kariya took a real low contract to play in Colorado.

Just to name a few.

Pay more attention so you don't need to be schooled

 

Schooled, huh?  Aren't you the same guy that thinks that where a guy was drafted over a half of a decade again has merit on his post-rookie contracts.  Yeah, ok.

 

If you paid attention, you would see that the two players you mentioned above (not sure why you threw in a coach in a discussion about players) are dealing with NHL contracts, not NFL contracts, which have completely different cap rules to play with.  Nevertheless, neither one of those players took an overall pay cut or lost money, they just negotiated contracts to have their salaries moved around to work the cap system.  Sure, they may have gotten paid a little less one year to circumvent the cap, but they still got the money in the end. Kariya made over $82 million when it was all said and done. They didn't give up a dime. 

 

On that note, Cousins had said in at least two interviews previously, that he was more than willing to work his future contract with restructuring to help the team.  THAT is what most players do.  No one, outside of Brady, takes a pay cut.  It appears you need the schooling.  I suggest the class called Capology 101. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

Brady has never taken a pay cut, by the way. It may be semantics, as he's definitely taken less than he could have gotten, but in the interest of accuracy, he has never actually taken a pay cut.

[theTruthTeller]

1 hour ago, Dan73 said:

Ray Bourque was known to always sign team friendly deals.

 

Sean Payton gave back money to get Gregg Williams. 

Paul Kariya took a real low contract to play in Colorado.

Just to name a few.

Pay more attention so you don't need to be schooled

 

To be fair:

 

Sean Payton isn't an athlete with short window.  He;s had an OC or higher job since 2000 and he's only 54.  And he's at a low risk of having his career cut short by injury (in fact, he fractured his tibia during a game in 2011 and coached through it).

 

Paul Kariya was drafted by the Mighty Ducks who made him the 2nd highest paid player in the entire NHL from 1998 to 2001 and the 4th highest paid in 2002. He was released by the MDs in 2003 because of his salary and Colorado presented a better chance to win the Stanley Cup than the MDs.  He did take a low salary, but it certainly wasn't out of loyalty to Colorado.  He had already made his fortune.  I can't say that Washington gives KC much of a chance to do anything but go 8-8 again.

[Taylor 36]

1 minute ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Brady has never taken a pay cut, by the way. It may be semantics, as he's definitely taken less than he could have gotten, but in the interest of accuracy, he has never actually taken a pay cut.

Good point!  IT is funny how many people ignore, though, how easy it is to take less than you could when your wife literally makes more a year than any player in any sport.