Alex Smith Trade Thread (Details Inside)

[Silvernon]

11 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

Not necessarily directed at you, but I see a lot of people using AAV as the new acronym of choice. The problem is it's the worst possible number to look at. It has no real bearing on the cost of a player unless they play out the full contract without renegotiation and/or it's fully guaranteed. Those are very rare contracts. McClain for example, yes if he plays his full 4 years he will make and average of $5,25M. However his CAP hit last year was just His CAP hit for 2018 is $4.7M. They can then dump him after next year with a relatively small dead cap hit of $2.5M or half that ($1,25M) if they designate him a June 1st cut.

 

Ok, now that we have that out of the way - and I did this for a reason. You used AAV for McClain but then used actual salaries for some of the other players. Can't have it both ways. Also, with all your slashes and 1 and 2, and then saying 3 players if you are creative, I am just not sure where you are going? I have to make some assumptions since it's not clear. If they are wrong, please clear it up so I can make a more specific response.

You cannot look at Year 1 and Year 2 + potential out and say that the contract length and AAV does not matter. The 'extra years' on contracts spread out the bonus money and this money will impact the salary cap in the years they are not with the team. Yes, there could be a sizable roster bonus and minimal signing bonus in some cases, but that's very rare.

Let's look at McClain and let's guarantee that it was never intended for him to reach the 2019 season. 
2017 - $3.73M
2018 - $4.69M
2019 - $2.5M

When you realize that they stashed 2.5 million of bonus into 2019 and 2020 to have McClain on the roster in 2017 and 2018, the AAV for the two years that he contributes to your team is....wait for it....$5.25 million. His guaranteed for two years is 10.5million.

Your salary cap does not reflect that over 2017 and 2018, but let's not get cute here and pretend that he's not making $5.25M/year. 

 

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Again, not sure I see a 3 person combination anywhere unless I assume the slash means both players. But then example #1 is 4 players. WTF let's look at them all. 

 

Markus Weaton (WR) - 2017 - $5.25M - AAV - $5.5M

Latavius Murray (RB) - 2017 - $2.9M - AAV - $4.97

M Goodwin (WR) - 2017 - $3.25M - AAV $3.0M

Micah Hyde (S) - 2017 - $4M - AAV - $6.18M

J Poyer (S) - 2017 - $2.75M - AAV - $3M

Bennie Logan (NT) - 2017 - $7.85M - AAV - $7.85M  

Dontarie Poe (NT) - 2017 - $8M - AAV $8M

 

Usually a / means "or" (at least in the languages I am familiar with) - maybe I should brush up on the new.

So, Poe/Logan @ 8 million and Murray @ 5 million = 13 million
And, Wheaton @ 5.5 million and Hyde @ 6 million = 11.5 million
Or, Murray @ 5 million, Goodwin @ 3 million and Poyer @ 3 million = 11 million.

Two starters, maybe three, if you're being smart about it. Huge difference.

 

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If you sign either NT, if you resign Breeland you are done - (which I hate both contracts. One year deal which will turn into much bigger money this year. Let's see what they command then talk about AAV, but Ok let's go with it.) If you don;t sign Breeland, yes you can get maybe two more players but you need a CB replacement or you go with Norman and a couple of second yr guys or a 1st yr draft pick. Didn't we just try that a WR? Didn't work so well. 

 

They aren't signing Breeland and they do not need to sign one: Moreau/Dunbar is what you'll get. They have made the choice to save money at the position because of Josh Norman - it is what it is. This past season hearing Breeland's focus/practice issues, I am happy they are moving to inexpensive options.

 

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There is no combination of AAV that gets you 3 players if you sign a NT. If you don't, you can get there but not sure those are the guys I believe put us over the top. Even if you use 2017 salary, you can only get there by not signing a NT - arguably the most important position - but I get that is debatable. What woudl a RB look like. Hard to say a WR would make that much impact. Kirk still threw for over 4000 yds. A WR helps but is not as critical as S, NT and RB IMO. But let's look at some of those players.

 

Well, I don't think Sylvester Williams ($5.5M AAV) would have come to Washington because he was going close to home, but at least theoretically this negates your assertion. 

With regard to Poe/Logan on one year contracts, you are right that it is very difficult. Not impossible - you can fit the cap numbers of Latavius Murray and Jordan Power in 2017 with the premium NT contract for $13.65 million.

 

That's stretching it, but if you could get two phantom years on the back of a four year contract, you could put half of an $8 million SB in those years. Comparable to McClain, this would bring down the cap numbers down in 2017 and 2018 in exchange for the $4M dead cap hit in 2019. If we're looking at cap hits of $5.5 million in 2017 and $6.5 million in 2018 for Logan/Poe, then the above scenario of three impact starters is absolutely achievable. 

 

 

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Goodwin - 56 catches good for 2nd on the Redskins - 962 yds would have ledth team - but just 2TDs. Good value probably. Agian, though not sure how many wins that's worth since even without many targets Kirk managed to pass for 4000 yds. 

Wheaton - Really? - 3 recs 51c yds and 0 TDs in 11 games? He only has 110 lifetime catches. He is not worth what they paid him - not even close. 

Hyde is really a SS - but he did play a littel FS with Poyer and him mixing it up a lot actually. So Ok. Bleacher Report has Hyde listed as the #14 best SS. I like his play and he could be good - but after only a $4M hit this year his salary goes up quite a bit. 

Poyer - He is listed as the 18th best FS. They got a really good value there even with AAV. Jsut a 2 ytr contract. He will get a lot more after- but really good value here. 

Goodwin - it's the speed skill set to replace what DeSean Jackson was providing. Reed and Doctson are the red zone targets.
Wheaton looks like his shoulder carried over to this season, albeit I give you very disappointing and that he was a risk signing. I would have stayed away too.

Micah Hyde was a borderline top 10 overall safety (FS or SS) this past season. 

Jordan Poyer was a borderline top 5 overall safety this past season.

 

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I talked about Poe and Logan. If you sign them, it takes up all the money you have unless you don't sign Breeland which just pushes the problem some where else. I am still not convinced the money saved was worth it and gets us over the top. Thanks for listing the players though. It forced me to look at the actual numbers. I mean that sincerely. Some clarification of exactly who you believe makes up the 3 that push us over the top would be helpful. 

 

After looking at the data though I believe I was right to begin with....    But time will tell. Bruce may surprise me. Unlike others I do not hate his drafts. 

After breaking it down, I think I've presented the better argument but this was fun, thanks. 

[kingdaddy]

19 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Why for at least 4?  The reporters talking about it said as far as what they heard the guarantees are 3 years top.  

 

We had Andy Reid with the exact same QB draft a guy in the top 10 -- heck he even traded up to do it.  And Alex was even younger then.   If a QB drops to our pick that Jay loves -- why is it smart for Andy to do it (KC reporters are saying fans are practically giddy about Mahomes taking over for Alex Smith) but not so sharp if we do it?  Especially if its for a guy like Josh Allen who is raw and could benefit from riding the bench for 2 or 3 years or a guy like Rudolph who has to adjust to an NFL offense from a spread or whomever.

 

The Browns were looking to trade for Alex and draft a QB.  The guy behind that, Dorsey, is no dummy and he knows Alex Smith as good as anyone.  

 

I am not saying force a pick for a QB.  And I like Alex Smith but I am not looking at him as a long term solution.

 

 

Lets compromise and grab the kid from Richmond in the 4th or 5th round and groom him to play QB? 

[Silvernon]

19 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

But we won't, because we're "going for it". And "it" is likely going to stop them from even properly evaluating QBs, because we have to use all our resources to win as many games as possible, now, rather than thinking of the future.

 

Of course, "it" means still being a long shot for even a playoff spot, which is why it amazes me that so many people are OK with this path.

This argument doesn't make a lot fo sense to me.

Are you saying that because we're in win now we'll over-draft players who are ready to contribute with lower ceilings?

Otherwise, I do not follow the logic that focusing on the present means neglecting the future.

The Alex Smith trade probably does erase the desire to scout the QBs more than due diligence, but everyone will scout late round QBs because of the potential of high return value for low investment. If there is someone intriguing, I say cut McCoy and roll the dice. The evaluation of QBs in the draft will have more to do with how the team views McCoy as the QB2.

[markmills67]

Don't know if this has been mentioned in any earlier posts but Emmanuel Saunders could be on the trade block in Denver. Broncos need a QB and we need a WR, straight up swap with Cousin's?. Saunders cap hit is 11m I think next year which would give us Smith and Saunders for the price of Cousin's. 

 

HTTR 

[Voice_of_Reason]

34 minutes ago, markmills67 said:

Don't know if this has been mentioned in any earlier posts but Emmanuel Saunders could be on the trade block in Denver. Broncos need a QB and we need a WR, straight up swap with Cousin's?. Saunders cap hit is 11m I think next year which would give us Smith and Saunders for the price of Cousin's. 

 

HTTR 

Cousins would have to be willing to play ball.

 

so unlikely.

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 hour ago, Silvernon said:

This argument doesn't make a lot fo sense to me.

Are you saying that because we're in win now we'll over-draft players who are ready to contribute with lower ceilings?

Otherwise, I do not follow the logic that focusing on the present means neglecting the future.

The Alex Smith trade probably does erase the desire to scout the QBs more than due diligence, but everyone will scout late round QBs because of the potential of high return value for low investment. If there is someone intriguing, I say cut McCoy and roll the dice. The evaluation of QBs in the draft will have more to do with how the team views McCoy as the QB2.

I am suggesting, actually predicting, the team will end up not taking a QB in the early to middle rounds this year when it is my belief that it is the perfect year to do so. 

 

And yes, I believe bypassing a player who could be your QB for a decade so you can take someone who helps a little now would be an example of sacrificing the future for the sake of today.

[Dan73]

38 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Cousins would have to be willing to play ball.

 

so unlikely.

Cousins wants his 34 million he will sign.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

Lets compromise and grab the kid from Richmond in the 4th or 5th round and groom him to play QB? 

 

I'd love to take Lauletta but three things on that.

 

1.  I wonder if he falls that far.

2.  I learned from another on this board, his agent is McCartney, the same dude that Bruce doesn't supposedly get along with.

3.  If they have an agreement with Alex Smith's agent according to Cooley-Sheehan -- they aren't taking a QB in this draft.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

41 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

 

And yes, I believe bypassing a player who could be your QB for a decade so you can take someone who helps a little now would be an example of sacrificing the future for the sake of today.

 

I caught up with a Mike Jones segment from Sheehan-Cooley.  His points:

 

A.  The FO weren't all in on Kirk.  They put it on him some of the close loses this season.

B.   The combination of Colt and drafting a QB was considered -- but they elected not to do so because they were likely afraid that Colt would get hurt and the young QB wouldn't be ready to succeed right away.

C.  It's really really really important that they are successful this season.  They need to make the playoffs.

 

Jones didn't make a conclusion based on all of this but the vibe I took from it was Dan must be impatient and the idea of hitting some growing pains with a young QB if it cost them a playoff spot isn't on the table.

[Dan73]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'd love to take Lauletta but three things on that.

 

1.  I wonder if he falls that far.

2.  I learned from another on this board, his agent is McCartney, the same dude that Bruce doesn't supposedly get along with.

3.  If they have an agreement with Alex Smith's agent according to Cooley-Sheehan -- they aren't taking a QB in this draft.

 

I wouldn't put much stock in the rumours. Smith and his agent probably wanted to know he had 3 or 4 years to be the man. A 4th round qb doesn't upset that. A qb in the 1st or 2nd would.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, Dan73 said:

I wouldn't put much stock in the rumours. Smith and his agent probably wanted to know he had 3 or 4 years to be the man. A 4th round qb doesn't upset that. A qb in the 1st or 2nd would.

 

Maybe so.  I hope they are wrong.   When you got Tandler and Keim doubling down on the same point but they aren't saying the reason is because of an agreement -- they just don't think its happening where they are drafting a QB until maybe the end of the draft.  Will see.

[Dan73]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Maybe so.  I hope they are wrong.   When you got Tandler and Keim doubling down on the same point but they aren't saying the reason is because of an agreement -- they just don't think its happening where they are drafting a QB until maybe the end of the draft.  Will see.

I do not think they planned to draft one early anyways.  They wouldn't have traded for Smith if they had.

[Tsailand]

On 2/10/2018 at 2:14 PM, Dan73 said:

Giving Cousins the kind of money being discussed means yes 8-8 is the to be hoped for.

 

So what should we hope for with Alex Smith?

 

 

 

On 2/10/2018 at 4:10 PM, Darrell Green Fan said:

Sorry, I thought we were discussing NFL players in the age of the salary cap.  No on second thought that was exactly what we were discussing and for some reason you believe hockey players from years ago and an assistant coach is relevant.  They are not.

 

Next.  

 

OK, OK, how about the time in "It's a Wonderful Life" when Jimmy Stewart gave some of his money to the bank so it wouldn't go under?  That counts right?

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

I am suggesting, actually predicting, the team will end up not taking a QB in the early to middle rounds this year when it is my belief that it is the perfect year to do so. 

 

And yes, I believe bypassing a player who could be your QB for a decade so you can take someone who helps a little now would be an example of sacrificing the future for the sake of today

What's interesting is that so many years past have been called QB heavy and rarely does it live up to the hype. 2011 was supposed to be great but Mike said he didn't like the guys and seems to have been right. 2012, we were fooled by one of the two can't miss prospects, and picked the one who missed. 

 

Right now there are a bunch of guys at the top, each with their own reasons for doubting their game. We picked up a guy in Morris who we may see as a developmental guy, who we can at least guarantee to have going into training camp. I'd hate to be counting on White or Rudolph only to have other teams pick them before us, just like I'd hate to take them in the first. 

 

Then the question becomes what development do they need, what's their attitude, how will they work with Gruden? I like the idea of a young qb but I don't like rebuilding or going 4-12 waiting for him to "get it". I don't even like the whole battle of its he a gamechanger or a system guy and what's he worth. 

 

In my opinion, going qb early is fools gold. Sure some teams draft an mvp but they're are lots of other Cleveland /Carolina/Jacksonville/Washington examples than the Philly and Green Bay ones. This is one of the places I can understand Gibbs a lot more than I used to. Hopefully the Smith trade becomes similar to the Burnell one and we can see other areas of the team develop. If still sucks giving up this much but if Smith turns out being similar to Cousins at a cheaper price then maybe it'll be worth it. 

 

I'm also hoping that Morris proves he's more than a pre-season wonder and can become the next Chase Daniel. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

41 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

C.  It's really really really important that they are successful this season.  They need to make the playoffs.

That's my feeling. My opinion is based more on that, as well as their history, up to trading for Alex Smith. More so than the rumor that Smith said he didn't want to go to a team that was going to draft a QB. Not that I really doubt that.

[goskins10]

4 hours ago, Silvernon said:

You cannot look at Year 1 and Year 2 + potential out and say that the contract length and AAV does not matter. The 'extra years' on contracts spread out the bonus money and this money will impact the salary cap in the years they are not with the team. Yes, there could be a sizable roster bonus and minimal signing bonus in some cases, but that's very rare.

Let's look at McClain and let's guarantee that it was never intended for him to reach the 2019 season. 
2017 - $3.73M
2018 - $4.69M
2019 - $2.5M

When you realize that they stashed 2.5 million of bonus into 2019 and 2020 to have McClain on the roster in 2017 and 2018, the AAV for the two years that he contributes to your team is....wait for it....$5.25 million. His guaranteed for two years is 10.5million.

Your salary cap does not reflect that over 2017 and 2018, but let's not get cute here and pretend that he's not making $5.25M/year. 

 

 

Your snarkiness aside, No one is getting "cute here". The numbers are what they are. You can't just ignore the CAP numbers as that is what is important. I agree you can say he is getting paid $10.5M total but that money is not distributed in two years so it's not $5.25/yr. The whole point of this conversation (at least I thought) is about how much CAP space you have. That CAP hit is not $5.25M no matter who you try to rationalize it.  

 

 

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Usually a / means "or" (at least in the languages I am familiar with) - maybe I should brush up on the new.

So, Poe/Logan @ 8 million and Murray @ 5 million = 13 million
And, Wheaton @ 5.5 million and Hyde @ 6 million = 11.5 million
Or, Murray @ 5 million, Goodwin @ 3 million and Poyer @ 3 million = 11 million.

Two starters, maybe three, if you're being smart about it. Huge difference.

 

Seriously, leave the snarky comments out. It just takes away from your argument. You said 3 and that's what I was working with. Was just asking for clarification you had the line in pairs and were talking ab out 3 guys.

 

Wheaton should not be part of any conversation. He has 56 catches his entire career. And that contact is horrible for a guy like that. Has nothing to do with his shoulder. It has the feel of just taking random guy to make the argument work, especially when you say you would have stayed away from him. 

 

The first line is just two players. Not sure Murray is who will transform the RB position. He had 1 1000 yd season and cannot stay on the field. So for me the WRs and RBs you mentioned are JAGs. The NTs and Ss are worth it. The are solid players and would significantly upgrade their position for the Redskins. So if you assume no Breeland you can get maybe 2 guys. Yes it helps but but does it make up for what is lost? Are these the guys to change the franchise that a big contract to Kirk would keep the team from competing? Maybe, I guess it's possible. But I am not seeing right now.  

 

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They aren't signing Breeland and they do not need to sign one: Moreau/Dunbar is what you'll get. They have made the choice to save money at the position because of Josh Norman - it is what it is. This past season hearing Breeland's focus/practice issues, I am happy they are moving to inexpensive options.

 

All calculations were done assuming Breeland does not get signed. Otherwise you have no case at all. I made that clear so not sure what the point is other than to get your thoughts about Breeland out there. He certainly has had some maturity issues but he played very well last year. Before trading Fuller I would have not hesitated letting Breeland go. But this is really putting a lot pressure on Halsey, especially if there are any injuries. I like Moreau. I liked the pick when it happened. But the jury is still out if he can come back 100% healthy and still play at the same level and have his game transition to the NFL. I like his chances but we are going into the season where a position of strength now has big question marks. I just do not see that a good team building. But maybe it works out. 

 

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Well, I don't think Sylvester Williams ($5.5M AAV) would have come to Washington because he was going close to home, but at least theoretically this negates your assertion. 

 

Not sure what this negates. You found JAG that took less money that is unlikely to have come here. Not being flip here but I can find random players at positions to make the numbers work. But what that money is supposed to do, as I am told by all that didn't want to pay Kirk, that these players are what will put us over the top and hep us win championships. That without these players the team is hand strung and not capable of being more than .500. Wheaten, Murray, Goodwin, not Williams I do not these guys in that way. Hey maybe the coaches could coach them up - not being sarcastic here. I think the coaches have done a better job than they get credit for developing players under Jay. But this is asking a lot. 

 

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With regard to Poe/Logan on one year contracts, you are right that it is very difficult. Not impossible - you can fit the cap numbers of Latavius Murray and Jordan Power in 2017 with the premium NT contract for $13.65 million.

 

That's stretching it, but if you could get two phantom years on the back of a four year contract, you could put half of an $8 million SB in those years. Comparable to McClain, this would bring down the cap numbers down in 2017 and 2018 in exchange for the $4M dead cap hit in 2019. If we're looking at cap hits of $5.5 million in 2017 and $6.5 million in 2018 for Logan/Poe, then the above scenario of three impact starters is absolutely achievable. 

 

So when I said the CAP number was important you told me that the AAV was more important. But now to make your argument you are willing to push money into later years. Again, sorry but you can't have it both ways. Having said that, I would be OK with bringing these guys in like that. However, those one yr contracts were to bet on themselves so they can get the big contract now. Not sure the scenario you posed can happen now. Those guys are going to expect to be paid. 

 

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Goodwin - it's the speed skill set to replace what DeSean Jackson was providing. Reed and Doctson are the red zone targets.
Wheaton looks like his shoulder carried over to this season, albeit I give you very disappointing and that he was a risk signing. I would have stayed away too.

Micah Hyde was a borderline top 10 overall safety (FS or SS) this past season. 

Jordan Poyer was a borderline top 5 overall safety this past season.

 

Addressed the WRs above. They are JAGs to me. Maybe Goodwin but 2 TDs on almost 1000 yds? 

 

The Ss are definitely solid. Not sure where  your ranking is coming from. I used PFF - not the gospel so if you have a different source that measures them higher OK. They had them ranked a bit lower - especially called out Poyer missing tackles - missed 19% which is pretty high for a S and said he was inconsistent. I do not know that part as I have not watched him much. Not exactly a big Bills fans and I dropped Direct TV and their over-priced NFL package. But again they are not perfect in their assessments. What I have seen of him he is a really really solid player and someone who would be a huge upgrade. If you get say him and Poe or Logan, that would be interesting. But not really sure either comes at their current price if they are FAs - especially Poyer.  

 

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After breaking it down, I think I've presented the better argument but this was fun, thanks. 

 

I of course disagree but fair enough. To each their own. We will see what the team does this off-season. They have created some additional CAP - but I fear given up too much to get it. I am rooting for them. Let's see what happens. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

18 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

In my opinion, going qb early is fools gold. Sure some teams draft an mvp but they're are lots of other Cleveland /Carolina/Jacksonville/Washington examples than the Philly and Green Bay ones.

You could say that about any position. I can't think of any trait that would doom a GM more completely than being afraid to make moves because they might not work. Fortune definitely does not favor the scared of their own shadow.

 

Of course, I was talking about taking someone int he 2nd or 3rd round area. If we're too afraid to take someone there, we're even more screwed than I thought.

 

But my main point, again, is about that mentality. Going for the Brunells and Smiths is fine if you're happy to play for the middle. And that is what we're doing, and have been doing. But the chances you will ever do much more than 9-7 level that way is slim, at best. If you're OK with that, then so be it.

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

Your snarkiness aside, No one is getting "cute here". The numbers are what they are. You can't just ignore the CAP numbers as that is what is important. I agree you can say he is getting paid $10.5M total but that money is not distributed in two years so it's not $5.25/yr. The whole point of this conversation (at least I thought) is about how much CAP space you have. That CAP hit is not $5.25M no matter who you try to rationalize it.  

 

I'm with him on this one. If you release McClain after two years, then he has received (about) 10.9 mil That's money that has to be accounted for on the cap. So that's 10.9 for two years of play, or 5.45 mil per year. Just because we've managed to spread the hit over an extra year doesn't change that. It's still 10.9 mil for two years on the roster.

 

And especially if you're comparing it to what else we could spend the cap on. Because those prospective players contracts can always be structured differently as well.

[goskins10]

2 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

I'm with him on this one. If you release McClain after two years, then he has received (about) 10.9 mil That's money that has to be accounted for on the cap. So that's 10.9 for two years of play, or 5.45 mil per year. Just because we've managed to spread the hit over an extra year doesn't change that. It's still 10.9 mil for two years on the roster.

 

And especially if you're comparing it to what else we could spend the cap on. Because those prospective players contracts can always be structured differently as well.

 

I see what you are saying but for me, the important thing is the CAP that year. I get pushing it down the road can also cause problems - but the CAP at least has been going higher making the impact of the $s less. And you have more money in the earlier year(s) to do what you want. 

 

My bigger point is after stating the AAV for McClain there was some inconsistencies in the rest of the argument, including structuring the NTs the same to get to the numbers needed. Measure one way and stay with it. 

[Thinking Skins]

33 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

You could say that about any position. I can't think of any trait that would doom a GM more completely than being afraid to make moves because they might not work. Fortune definitely does not favor the scared of their own shadow.

 

Of course, I was talking about taking someone int he 2nd or 3rd round area. If we're too afraid to take someone there, we're even more screwed than I thought.

 

But my main point, again, is about that mentality. Going for the Brunells and Smiths is fine if you're happy to play for the middle. And that is what we're doing, and have been doing. But the chances you will ever do much more than 9-7 level that way is slim, at best. If you're OK with that, then so be it.

 

I'll admit that I've missed large period portions of this discussion, but I your post just got me thinking. If you're talking about a third I can get it but it becomes a question of will be be available? All it takes is one team to have a crush and suddenly we can miss our guy. I and the draft is after FA so we would be less likely to find a guy like Smith sitting and waiting. 

 

I just think QB is such a hard position to scout for the pros, different than any other position because of the number of times the ball is in his hand per game. We're talking 30-40 touches. It used to be rbs were like that but not any more. 

 

But why would Smith curse us to mediocrity? It didn't in San Fran or KC. Sure neither team won it all and he was replaced both times but both teams were championship contenders. We have a ways to go but let's not act like it's impossible.

 

BTW, the eagles had Vick and Foles as QBs before CW. The Giants had Romo, and the Ravens have Flacco. It doesn't take a top 5 QB, it takes a team. That's what I got from this year's playoffs. Not saying that any Joe Schmoe would do, but a mediocre one doesn't doom us to years and years of failure [no more than our current team does]. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

14 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I see what you are saying but for me, the important thing is the CAP that year. I get pushing it down the road can also cause problems - but the CAP at least has been going higher making the impact of the $s less. And you have more money in the earlier year(s) to do what you want. 

 

My bigger point is after stating the AAV for McClain there was some inconsistencies in the rest of the argument, including structuring the NTs the same to get to the numbers needed. Measure one way and stay with it. 

I wasn't really getting into the whole argument, though I think he started talking about what we could do with the extra cap space and then immediately talked about what a crap job we did when we had space last year (McClain and McGee), which I thought was funny.

 

But I stand with my point- you pay a guy 11 mil for two years, that's 5.5 mil per year. There are all kinds of ways to spread cap hit out, but that's what he cost.

[Rufus T Firefly]

8 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

I'll admit that I've missed large period portions of this discussion, but I your post just got me thinking. If you're talking about a third I can get it but it becomes a question of will be be available? All it takes is one team to have a crush and suddenly we can miss our guy. I and the draft is after FA so we would be less likely to find a guy like Smith sitting and waiting. 

 

Again, and I've qualified this repeatedly, my opinion on this year's QB class is just that, my opinion. But the point that I was making was about the mindset of not even looking at those QBs, because we have Smith and he's "good enough" for the next several years. 

8 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

But why would Smith curse us to mediocrity? It didn't in San Fran or KC. Sure neither team won it all and he was replaced both times but both teams were championship contenders. We have a ways to go but let's not act like it's impossible.

 

One more time, it's not about Smith, it's about the mindset. I started a whole thread about it. I have no problem with Smith. But we're a below average team with no signs of approaching better than that. We chose to, hopefully, tread water at the most important position with a guy who's aging. And we sacrifice one of our best young talents to do so. We're doing that because we have a FO that wants to do well enough to keep their jobs. Which is the "good enough"mindset. 

 

Personally, I want better than that.

[SWFLSkins]

 

[Peregrine]

Yeah, Gruden was never going to draft QB this year.  He knows full well if he doesnt make the playoffs this year he gets fired, just as he should have been after this past season.  He has no time to develop someone. I expect them to go a bit all out in free agency to make a playoff push, because both Gruden and Allen's jobs are now on the line if its 3 straight years of failure.

[Rufus T Firefly]

51 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Yeah, Gruden was never going to draft QB this year.  He knows full well if he doesnt make the playoffs this year he gets fired, just as he should have been after this past season.  He has no time to develop someone. I expect them to go a bit all out in free agency to make a playoff push, because both Gruden and Allen's jobs are now on the line if its 3 straight years of failure.

He wouldn't, but it shouldn't be up to him. It's one thing to have a coach heading into a season thinking he needs to perform to hold his job. But it should be obvious why you shouldn't have a GM going into a year thinking his job depends on winning games in that season.

 

Obvious to a good organization, I mean.