Alex Smith Trade Thread (Details Inside)

[WelshSkinsFan]

2 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I agree and that's the glass half full way I usually like to look at it

This year and this draft is especially important to Allen. It's his baby and his team. No "Shanny has total contro"l or "Allen is only succeeding because he cribbed McCloughan's notes," excuses.

 

Pretty sure Doug Williams will be the excuse Bruce uses if it all goes tits up but hopefully even Dan won't fall for that crap this time around.  That said I am in the glass half full camp, the league is much more of a year to year thing than ever before and we have some pieces so it is not impossible for us to have success moving forward, that is where competence at Quarterback comes in and that at the very least is what Alex brings to the table. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I still hate that Doug Williams is playng this role, what has he done to make us believe he can outsmart the other GMs?  But I also have to be fair and give him a chance before I totally dismiss him.   

[LightningBuggs]

2 hours ago, Burgold said:

I don't think it's sickening from this perspective. We're in year six of Jay Gruden's tenure. By now, he should have his team running on all cylinders. We've had the same HC and FO long enough to assemble a team. We should be disciplined, consistent, and good. If we're not then Gruden, Allen, and company need to explain why.

I'm not gonna argue that Jay and Brucey need to be held accountable.  Allen should have been placed in a position with little power long ago.

 

But things will never change with the next crew.  The modus operandi is always the same.  "We're almost there".  This franchise perpetually employs the quick fix method.  It doesn't have to be a long rebuild.  However, sacrificing a 3rd round pick and most importantly a young and upcoming CB on a cheap rookie contract for a 34 y.o. Qb who needs a solid team around him to succeed only further hinders any potential rebuild.  In fact, it sets it back a little more.

[theTruthTeller]

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

The sad thing is that we've luckboxed our way, via disaster, into a very favorable position.  Hypothetically looking at things, if we hadn't botched the Kirk deal, and he was the 33 year old QB getting paid $23.5 mil per year, with the idea of having another 2 - 3 years of being competitive to find his heir apparent and develop, everyone would be lauding the FO for remaining competitive, while building the team through consistency.   Now it's time for the FO to spend the next 22 months finding another option for long the long term @ QB.  

They spent over 22 years looking for Kirk, and by the time they realized he was good, it was too late.  If they couldn't identify Kirk as a franchise quarterback after having him for four years and 25 starts, I have no faith in them grooming a developmental project over the next 22 months while Smith keeps us around 8-8.  I really don't see this as a favorable position at all.

[OVCChairman]

1 minute ago, theTruthTeller said:

They spent over 22 years looking for Kirk, and by the time they realized he was good, it was too late.  If they couldn't identify Kirk as a franchise quarterback after having him for four years and 25 starts, I have no faith in them grooming a developmental project over the next 22 months while Smith keeps us around 8-8.  I really don't see this as a favorable position at all.

We've got money to spend, we've got young talent, we've got a capable vet QB with a track record, we're spending an affordable amount for him.  How we got here is ridiculous, but we're still in a good position as far as the team is concerned.  Now I agree that the confidence in the F.O. to do anything with it is severely lacking, but as a FOOTBALL team, we're in decent shape.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

12 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I still hate that Doug Williams is playng this role, what has he done to make us believe he can outsmart the other GMs?  But I also have to be fair and give him a chance before I totally dismiss him.   

I'm still not sure what role he is actually playing, but I guess that's part of the mystery that is the Redskins FO.  But your answer is that he's done nothing to make anyone believe he's a level above or even on the same level as guys with remotely similar positions.  Lucky for us though, Bruce is now watching tape and will be there to assure Doug doesn't do anything too crazy.   I laugh but I also cry.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

having 0 first round picks for 3 years, teamed with the salary cap penalty is still haunting us now though.  While we're appearing to be trending in a somewhat positive direction, it still hurts.  That said, I agree that we could be ahead of where we are now if things had been handled correctly.  There have been some poor decisions since then that have hindered our growth, and that cannot go absolved.   We flipped from the riskiest team in the league, to the absolute most conservative.  There has been little balance, and that has slowed the process.  

 

I think it was two years with zero first round picks. 2014 and 2014. But I agree with that point.  Also we traded high picks for McNabb. J. Brown. Heck a high third rounder now for Alex Smith.  So the culture of trading away picks hasn't gone away from the Cerrato era.  It's just not as bad.  I'd bet money that the Redskins have traded more high picks during Bruce's era than the average team.  Could even be top 5.

 

Free agency has turned from making some epic mistakes to being mistake aversive.  Cerrato's approach crippled us at times.   Bruce's approach on the other hand has been IMO uninspiring and meh. 

 

I was just reading an article from Keim about FA which alluded to the FO might look to make a splash to offset Kirk leaving and might look at someone like L. Bell.  Actually, I hope he's right.  It's not that I want the FO to be governed by making a splash.  But I'd like them to be shaken from their conservative comfort zone with FA.

 

When Jay talked about hey we wanted Calais Campbell but hey we landed two guys instead -- McGee and McClain -- it came off to me like Jay was touting the company line.  Hey we got two for the price of 1!  Granted Calais cost more than the price of 2.  But I want them to get more aggressive in FA.  I think Craig Hoffman summarized the roster well the other day on 106.7 by saying the problem with this team isn't that they don't have depth.  The problem is a lack of marquee front line players.   

[OVCChairman]

44 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think it was two years with zero first round picks. 2014 and 2014. But I agree with that point.  Also we traded high picks for McNabb. J. Brown. Heck a high third rounder now for Alex Smith.  So the culture of trading away picks hasn't gone away from the Cerrato era.  It's just not as bad.  I'd bet money that the Redskins have traded more high picks during Bruce's era than the average team.  Could even be top 5.

 

Free agency has turned from making some epic mistakes to being mistake aversive.  Cerrato's approach crippled us at times.   Bruce's approach on the other hand has been IMO uninspiring and meh. 

 

I was just reading an article from Keim about FA which alluded to the FO might look to make a splash to offset Kirk leaving and might look at someone like L. Bell.  Actually, I hope he's right.  It's not that I want the FO to be governed by making a splash.  But I'd like them to be shaken from their conservative comfort zone with FA.

 

When Jay talked about hey we wanted Calais Campbell but hey we landed two guys instead -- McGee and McClain -- it came off to me like Jay was touting the company line.  Hey we got two for the price of 1!  Granted Calais cost more than the price of 2.  But I want them to get more aggressive in FA.  I think Craig Hoffman summarized the roster well the other day on 106.7 by saying the problem with this team isn't that they don't have depth.  The problem is a lack of marquee front line players.   

right, I made the mistake of including the 1st rounder in 12 with those other 2.  Technically we traded 3 1st and a 2nd, but it was for an earlier 1st in 12 so we had the pick.  Using it on Griffin was a wasted pick though, speaking long term, so essentially we don't have any 1st round pick worthy players that came of that.  

 

 

As far as marquee front line players, that's where the 1st round is so important, and we were terrible for a stretch

 

2006 - No 1st round pick

2007 - LaRon Landry (Out of the league)

2008 - No 1st round pick

2009 - Brian Orakpo - Pro Bowler, plays for Titans

2010 - Trent Williams - HIT

2011 - Ryan Kerrigan - HIT

2012 - Robert Griffin III (Out of the league)

2013 - No 1st round pick

2014 - No 1st round pick

2015 - Brandon Scherff - HIT

2016 - Josh Doctson - Jury still out but not looking great thus far (fingers crossed)

2017 - Jonathon Allen - HIT (still early)

 

I went back 12 years, because it would b ea major stretch to imagine too many people lasting any longer than that.. 

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

right, I made the mistake of including the 1st rounder in 12 with those other 2.  Technically we traded 3 1st and a 2nd, but it was for an earlier 1st in 12 so we had the pick.  Using it on Griffin was a wasted pick though, speaking long term, so essentially we don't have any 1st round pick worthy players that came of that.  

 

 

During Bruce's tenure, we've traded away

 

two:  1st Rd picks

two:  2nd Rd picks

three: 3rd Rd picks (Alex Smith, J. Brown, McNabb)

one: 4th Rd pick (McNabb)

one: 5th Rd pick (Carrier)

 

That's a lot of high picks.  Yeah there is context.  There is rationale for everything.  But the bottom line is in the 7 drafts since he's been here.  They've given up 7 high round picks and two mid round picks.   That's actually giving up an above average number of picks in the draft.  It's not exactly that wild a departure from Vinny.    Now like Vinny, we are in a bit of a win now mode.  We got a 34 year old QB.  I wanted to go younger not older at QB if Kirk left.  However, it is what it is.  If you are running with an approach.  Just play it out.  That's my long winded way of saying be aggressive this year in FA.  I don't think anyone of us will years later look back at 2018 and say geez they pulled a rabbit of the hat and went 8-8 even with Kirk leaving.  IMO to play out the card they are playing at QB -- they got to be bold to finish the plot. 

[bedlamVR]

I have to say Bruce is like a Teflon Don ... But the reason he was brought in was at the behest of Mike Shanahan to act as a go between - between Mike Shanahans ego and Dan Snyders Ego - I don't think anyone would (well i actually do think some people will) argue that Bruce was anything but a mouthpiece in the (early) Shanahan years . Mike has been more than a little revisionist in the past ..... The word on the street is that Bruce wanted to beef up the scouting dept from day 1 but Mike ran/runs his own show.... just like now the lobster runs his own versions of history.... 

 

2014 was really the first Pin it on BRUCE year and I would also accept in 2014 he effectively outsourced a lot of the scouting out to Scot M.. 

 

How different the world would look now if things had stayed that way - Bruce as GM only in title - Scot M as a personnel guru advisor who could be shielded from the rigors of the day to day operation of a football team - and guys like Eric Shaffer etc handling everything else... (sigh) 

 

Then there was the cluster fudge of last year - but now we as a team and a fan base must move on - So many moaners (burn it down debbie downers - i am not sure what title you want to use)  say the homers (which lets face it is really simplistically insulting yet descriptive term - haters i guess would be the best term fot their opposite but now i just have that anoying jojo song in my head that my 5 year old has on repeat - the song was boomerang btw)  are stuck believing the Redskins are a force as they were in the golden days of the past - Where as in reality I am a homer and I can see the team is doing some good things there are some good players and realistically a blind squirel finds a nut every now and then - and i say unto the moaners  ;  things are not as bad as they seem, and even if it is, it is not anyone's fault, and no one can really do anything to change things    so stop being such a meany poopyhead all the time and learn to relax and enjoy the good things  in life and if watching football is one of them awesome otherwise - hey there is always next year

[Est.1974]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

During Bruce's tenure, we've traded away

 

The Smith move implies to me that Bruce, and Jay for that matter, are on a short leash with a couple of years max to really turn this around.

 

Setting aside the mater of how Kirk leaves the building, I can see a run in FA on a couple of top end players. I think we may have ~20mil in useable cap space available, roughly based on 50mil less Smith, the draft, keeping 10 back for the season. 

 

Then in the draft, well who the hell knows what goes off. Assuming we did look to jump back up for Foster last year, I suspect Bruce may be trigger happy again this year. Could see a future 1 or 2 being used to jump back in the 2018 draft. Firstly trade back for an extra 2 or 3. Then throw a 2019 pick or two the Browns way for one of their seconds. They would be happy nicking our future first rounder.

[Dan73]

1 hour ago, theTruthTeller said:

They spent over 22 years looking for Kirk, and by the time they realized he was good, it was too late.  If they couldn't identify Kirk as a franchise quarterback after having him for four years and 25 starts, I have no faith in them grooming a developmental project over the next 22 months while Smith keeps us around 8-8.  I really don't see this as a favorable position at all.

You have to believe Kirk is a franchise quarterback. 

 

He is not the guy I want in a playoff game or a prime time game or a big game with playoff implications.

[theTruthTeller]

4 minutes ago, Dan73 said:

You have to believe Kirk is a franchise quarterback. 

 

He is not the guy I want I'm a playoff game or a prime time game or a big game with playoff implications.

Here are the Skin's leading passers for the 20 seasons between Rypien and Cousins: Shuler, Frerotte, Frerotte, Frerotte, Green, Johnson, Johnson, Banks, Ramsey, Ramsey, Ramsey, Brunell, Brunell, Campbell, Campbell, Campbell, McNabb, Grossman, Griffin, Griffin.

 

But, no problem, we'll pick up someone better than Cousins in the next 22 months.  Because we have geniuses who can do that sort of thing.

[Dan73]

7 minutes ago, theTruthTeller said:

Here are the Skin's leading passers for the 20 seasons between Rypien and Cousins: Shuler, Frerotte, Frerotte, Frerotte, Green, Johnson, Johnson, Banks, Ramsey, Ramsey, Ramsey, Brunell, Brunell, Campbell, Campbell, Campbell, McNabb, Grossman, Griffin, Griffin.

 

But, no problem, we'll pick up someone better than Cousins in the next 22 months.  Because we have geniuses who can do that sort of thing.

They already did.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

22 minutes ago, theTruthTeller said:

Here are the Skin's leading passers for the 20 seasons between Rypien and Cousins: Shuler, Frerotte, Frerotte, Frerotte, Green, Johnson, Johnson, Banks, Ramsey, Ramsey, Ramsey, Brunell, Brunell, Campbell, Campbell, Campbell, McNabb, Grossman, Griffin, Griffin.

 

But, no problem, we'll pick up someone better than Cousins in the next 22 months.  Because we have geniuses who can do that sort of thing.

Let him be, he's thankful we were able to rid ourselves of the entitled whiner Cousins that couldn't be trusted to work with a young wide receiver because of his poor attitude.    The sooner we stop responding, the sooner he'll got back into his hole at Redskins Park.

[OVCChairman]

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Let him be, he's thankful we were able to rid ourselves of the entitled whiner Cousins that couldn't be trusted to work with a young wide receiver because of his poor attitude.    The sooner we stop responding, the sooner he'll got back into this hole at Redskins Park.

who said that? 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Just now, OVCChairman said:

who said that? 

Dan73, among many other things.  Dudes were digging up interviews from 2012 and high-fiving themselves where Cousins admitted he wasn't thrilled about going to a team that had just traded the farm for a QB 3 rounds earlier and equated that to him never wanting to be here, being entitled and that he should have been overtaken by pleasure to even get drafted by any team in the league.  Also glad to have a guy like Alex because they couldn't trust Cousins to work with a rookie with his poor attitude.  And a bunch more loony stuff.

[OVCChairman]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Dan73, among many other things.  Dudes were digging up interviews from 2012 and high-fiving themselves where Cousins admitted he wasn't thrilled about going to a team that had just traded the farm for a QB 3 rounds earlier and equated that to him never wanting to be here, being entitled and that he should have been overtaken by pleasure to even get drafted by any team in the league.  Also glad to have a guy like Alex because they couldn't trust Cousins to work with a rookie with his poor attitude.  And a bunch more loony stuff.

.... 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

2 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

We've got money to spend,

 

Nothing out of the ordinary.

 

Quote

we've got young talent,

 

No more than anyone else. Probably less actually.

 

 

Quote

we've got a capable vet QB with a track record, we're spending an affordable amount for him.

 

Ok

 

but we're still in a good position as far as the team is concerned. 

 

This seems overly optimistic but rock on.

[OVCChairman]

12 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

Nothing out of the ordinary.

 

 

No more than anyone else. Probably less actually.

 

 

 

Ok

 

 

 

 

This seems overly optimistic but rock on.

My point was that as terrible as the last however many years have been... sitting here looking at the team, we're not in terrible shape.  Again, my confidence in the F.O. to actually make something of it is minimal, but given the circumstances.. 

 

And I can remember plenty of times we've been in a much worse cap situation then we are now. 

[Est.1974]

1 hour ago, Dan73 said:

You have to believe Kirk is a franchise quarterback. 

 

He is not the guy I want in a playoff game or a prime time game or a big game with playoff implications.

 

1st January 2017, Redskins 10-19 NYG

 

Said at the time it was a killer. That's was the moment.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

The Smith move implies to me that Bruce, and Jay for that matter, are on a short leash with a couple of years max to really turn this around.

 

Setting aside the mater of how Kirk leaves the building, I can see a run in FA on a couple of top end players. I think we may have ~20mil in useable cap space available, roughly based on 50mil less Smith, the draft, keeping 10 back for the season. 

 

I agree.  And part of me wants to see that pressure ramp up their FA approach because in my mind its too laid back and uninspired typically.

 

1 hour ago, bedlamVR said:

So many moaners (burn it down debbie downers ... learn to relax and enjoy the good things  in life and if watching football is one of them awesome otherwise - hey there is always next year

 

I think the Kirk-Bruce standoff so to speak has create an odd divide in what constitutes a homer to begin with.  Is a homer about having Pom Poms for Bruce or the players?  The two points don't always converge.  And I get the argument either way.  But to me its debatable.   I always saw homers as being pro-team during the season.   It was about rooting for Joe Gibbs and the team -- versus I got Vinny Cerrato's back on the Duckett deal or whatever.

 

I'll use myself as an example.  I am one of the biggest homers on the board during the season -- I got the players back for the most part.  I travel up for multiple games, the whole nine yards.  I am as rabid during the season as anyone and typically I predict a good season. 

 

When it comes to the off season, I've given Bruce the benefit of the doubt plenty.  But he lost me last July for good. 

 

I don't look at the homer position as FO centric.  Many of these FO "homers" seem to go to town on any poor Kirk performance during the season. That to me isn't being a homer.  Be one thing if Bruce was here for life but he could just as easily be ousted as Vinny was.

 

And i do get the other side to all of this.  I used to feel that way.  The McNabb trade is a great example of it for me because its probably the most apples to apples to this.  McNabb has some charisma.  I found myself watching Eagle highlights.  I got jazzed about it.  The people who were giving the Redskins a hard time for it -- what does McNabb have left?  Why was Reid dumping him?  What about those lost draft picks.  All of them just spoiled the fun.    So I understand the mindset.

 

But yeah we can argue that endorsing the FO in everything they do makes you a better fan -- but you can equally argue that those that publicly give the FO a hard time for things they don't like make them a better fan -- because they are going out of their way not to enable what they don't like.  There is no right or wrong answer IMO to it.  Just different perspectives. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

18 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

1st January 2017, Redskins 10-19 NYG

 

Said at the time it was a killer. That's was the moment.

 

Once upon a time, Mike Wilbon chased Brad Johnson out of town, because he was not a leader of men, not a winner, and not clutch. And then he won the goddamn Super Bowl.

 

There is no such thing as clutch. Everyone who makes this argument is a dum dum.

 

Do not be a dum dum.

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

Once upon a time, Mike Wilbon chased Brad Johnson out of town, because he was not a leader of men, not a winner, and not clutch. And then he won the goddamn Super Bowl.

 

There is no such thing as clutch. Everyone who makes this argument is a dum dum.

 

Do not be a dum dum.

 

Arguably we have had three franchise type QBs in the fold in the last 25 years or so, all three were let go:  Trent Green, Brad Johnson, Kirk.  The other two won Superbowls after leaving.  I suspect Kirk might end up the third.

 

Be a funky 30-30 if so. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Arguably we have had three franchise type QBs in the fold in the last 25 years or so, all three were let go:  Trent Green, Brad Johnson, Kirk.  The other two won Superbowls after leaving.  I suspect Kirk might end up the third.

 

Be a funky 30-30 if so. 

 

Green won as a backup unless I'm totally forgetting something.