The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[Wildbunny]

Just now, dyst said:

So is this a McVay/Schneider situation where good talent could leave because our idiot owner is in love with the idiots rather than actual talent.

Maybe....

That doesn't sound so far fetched anyway...

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

I think we agree that there is dysfunction.  Where we disagree is I blame all three executives, Dan, Bruce and Jay for that dysfunction.  You excuse Jay and say he's the victim of Dan and Bruce.  Shrug.  Neither of use will probably convince the other, even though deep down we both probably know I'm right. (That was a joke, just for clarity.)

 

 

See tweet below.  This is from a dude who worked for years for Dan.  You are in effect blaming Jay for doing what he needs to do to survive.  While I get loving the idea of just someone going there and telling Bruce and Dan off but what makes you think that Dan-Bruce go OK, thanks for that feedback we will stop with the craziness now?   Seems like their answer to being challenged is you are shown the door. 

 

I gather you'd say well then fine, get yourself fired but I gather its easier said then done when you uproot your family, have kids in local schools, hire all these people working under you that depend on you -- and just say screw it, lets flame out to prove a point to Bruce and Dan and I don't care who the victims are for doing so. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Bruce is a huge problem.  He needs to go.  But to let Jay off the hook is just silliness at this point. 

 

To me I think focusing on Jay is silliness especially this season with all the drama.  And I probably agree with give or take half of your critiques of Jay but even if I agreed with all of them -- I am a GM-ownership guy over coaching guy.  Personnel-culture over coaching.   I am ok with Jay but even if I weren't:

 

I don't think firing Jay will mean squat to the bottom line.  And its not about making excuses for him.  It's about three things:

 

A. Any coach needs a good personnel guy and culture above him.

 

B.  Plan B if there is a good plan B coaching wise is meaningless or close enough with the same people up top

 

C.  Who halfway decent is coming here if the FO isn't fixed.

 

Even if I was as fixated as you are with Jay -- I'd still have it as my secondary thought at best because I think there is little shot at getting the next "dream" HC candidate with the current structure as it exists.

 

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Bellichick - Just a tough SOB and doesn't care if anybody likes him.

Reid - Seems likable enough, but he also is very tough, a workaholic, and an X's and O's certified genius.

Pete Carrol - (I hate he's on this list, but he is) - Players coach and lets guys be themselves, but pays attention to detail and is a tough SOB. Also a cheater. 

Sean Payton - Soft demeanor, but tough as nails.  Off of the Parcells tree.

 

It's not common to be as laid back as Jay and have success.  I'm sure he's a great guy.  But he's not a good executive, which is what a HC is, and he's not a good head coach.

 

Bruce is a huge problem.  He needs to go.  But to let Jay off the hook is just silliness at this point. 

 

They are good coaches and coincidentally all have killer front offices.  Belichick's FOs have spread as much wings as his assistant coaches throughout the league, stars coming out of that office.  The Saints in recent years in particular lauded as one of the best FO's in the league -- their assistant GM, Jeff Ireland probably will get a head GM job elsewhere soon.  Dorsey was considered a stud in KC, now its Cleveland -- why Reid let him go this year am not sure.  John Schneider in Seattle considered by many the best in the business -- same dude Dan chased out of the building for Cerrato.

[Voice_of_Reason]

@Skinsinparadise if you’re hired to coach a team and you can’t because your leadership won’t let you, you are going to get blamed for the results regardless so put your foot down, have a spine and stand up for yourself. 

 

And im sorry, at 4 mil a year or whatever, and having it paid out if you’re fired, I’m not going to cry for his situation.

 

if anything it bolsters his position because San isn’t going to willy nilly fore a guy and pay him 8-12-16 million dollars to go away.  

 

I think youre almost on your own with JP Finley at this point morning holding Jay accountable for at least parts of the litany of things going on here.  I listed a whole bunch of ways Jay added or enabled the dysfunction.  There wasn’t any retort to them.  He’s as much to blame for the culture of the team as anybody because HE’S THE GODDAMN HEAD COACH and responsible for the culture of the team.  Even if he can’t control Bruce, he can control the players.  He also can control not hiring good coaches.  

 

If they argumen is “he had no choice” then I don’t agree. You have a choice and good leaders could make better of this situation.

 

The other thing that all of the coaches I mentioned have is an incredible intensity.

 

Maybe they make some of the personnel stuff look even better because they can adapt their system to the personnel they have?

 

I’m not going to convince you Jay isn’t a major part of the problem.  I suggest you take my bet that @Renegade7 took.  Jay as a HC will never win 10 games in any season.  We set the date he buys me a steak dinner after the 2029 season.  I’m making my reservations at Morton’s now...

 

He’s bad at just about everything you need to be good at to be a good head coach. 

[Renegade7]

I'm open to being wrong and not actively rooting against him.  Having said that, hope is not sticking your hand on a stove believing your hand won't burn.  He has to get better in certain areas if he wants to hit that number, and to be fair, he is getting close.  Plenty of mediocre coaches that have broken that barrier, but you don't get a trophy for 10 wins.

[Wildbunny]

17 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

@Skinsinparadise if you’re hired to coach a team and you can’t because your leadership won’t let you, you are going to get blamed for the results regardless so put your foot down, have a spine and stand up for yourself. 

I'm not a big fan of that kind of "**** you attitude". And Jay really doesn't look like to be that kind of guy.

 

Sure you can send everyone and everything away and not care about consequences. But that's easier said than done. You're paid to do a job, even if the guys upstairs are assholes, you have to deal with it. That's basically what Jay is doing. Or as you said, he could just throw it away, find another job, another place.. But that doesn't make you look good, and probably Jay would find it unfair to the players, especially if you do it early in your tenure.

 

Now with the growing circus that we are this end of season, I wouldn't be surprised that he decides to finally calls it quit at the end of the season. Reuben Foster seems to have been too much on him. Especially the way the FO handled it.

 

I'll repeat myself, but Jay is the last of our problem around. Fire him, put whoever you want in his place. It won't matter until you get rid of Bruce, and probably Dan...

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I’m not going to convince you Jay isn’t a major part of the problem.  I suggest you take my bet that @Renegade7 took.  Jay as a HC will never win 10 games in any season.  We set the date he buys me a steak dinner after the 2029 season.  I’m making my reservations at Morton’s now...

 

He’s bad at just about everything you need to be good at to be a good head coach. 

 

I agree that he might never win 10 games with THIS organization but not for the reasons you think.

 

As for Finlay, I am only interested in his insider information/sources stuff.  As for his opinion, he's just like anyone of us.  He is entitled to it.  Plenty think Jay should come back among the media talking heads, too but don't care.

 

My point is as for Jay, I actually don't care that much one way or another if he's back or not.  I like Jay as a person and that has value to me with this mess of an organization.  I think he's a decent coach not a great coach.  I don't think he's the disaster you think he is.    And I think the way he can massage this FO is an asset and not a liability like you think it is.  But to each their own.

 

The dude has a harder job than most of his colleagues around the league having to coach this team.  Just about every other team has a GM and owner who actually speaks and addresses and deals with things.  Jay has to deal with all of that on his plate alone.  And I get the idea that he should just put up his big boy pants and take whatever punishment comes with this specific job and deal with it.  And he indeed does just that.  But I know from my own work (and I bet most can relate in some form to this), dealing with office politics and rumors and side issues can be exhausting and detract from success.  

 

Many have said there is fine line between winning or losing in the NFL.  Players have said even minor distractions are enough to take enough focus away from achieving wins where the margins between winning and losing is often so slim. 

 

A. The Reuben Foster signing seemed to be the lead dance for the dysfunction according to multiple reporters for different reasons.  It angered the MLBs and caused some angst with Mason and Zach.  It angered apparently Lafemina and his angst -- angered Bruce/Dan back.  Jay was the main person of course who had to address the issue in the media.  WP said the signing was Bruce's baby.

 

B. Norman calling out the fans.  That spilled into a Lafemina and Bruce spat behind the scenes according to multiple sources

 

C.  The Clinton-Dix trade and some saying that's Bruce dictating Jay's playing time from above in spite of Dix's struggles -- with this being a common thing that spilled to other players, too.  Even though Nicholson might have been a better player?  Nicholson maybe acts out via that incident -- or who knows

 

D.  As for the rest?  According to Sheehan there is a lot more going on in the front office than what's been told hence the media including him aren't giving Bruce a break because they could be much harsher

 

But the fact that I even have to recite stuff and assign blame says it all.  What other teams deal with this crap almost every season like the Redskins.  There is a reason why this team is a national punchline and no that reason isn't Jay. 

 

As for Jay telling Bruce-Dan off.  Heck it doesn't seem like even Shanny did so -- according to him the McNabb trade was shoved down his face and he grinned and bore what he didn't like about what Dan did with RG3, he did say something to Dan according to him but the problem persisted anyway.   

 

The only coach it seems that told Dan off was Marty and he was gone the next year.  If your point is you want to find a coach who will tell Dan-Bruce off and likely in turn be one and done -- maybe one of my favs Bruce Arians might fit that bill, I could see him doing that.  

 

Edit:  not sure what you meant by Finlay as to Jay, just listened to his podcast from today where he flat out says he thinks Jay should return.  Again, though not that I care that's just opinion from him. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

[Gibbs828791]

Guys if the prince of darkness is in anyway still on staff with this team, even if its in charge of business to get a stadium, he will still have Dannys ear, and surely will weasel his way back in to football decisions. I mean havent we already seen this with Scott!

[Skinsinparadise]

I just watched the Darren Haynes tweet post that I put above, channel 9 covering the fire bruce movement -- its awesome.   Finlay and Sheehan both talked on their respective podcasts about fans being out of control in a good way on the firebruce movement. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RemoveSnyder]

Vodka mixes really well with Rum. 

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

Vodka mixes really well with Rum. 

 

And Whiskey mixes really well with Cinnamon. 

[volsmet]

5 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

Or as you said, he could just throw it away, find another job, another place.. But that doesn't make you look good, and probably Jay would find it unfair to the players, especially if you do it early in your tenure.

 

 

Doug Marrone rolled the dice and ended up in an afc title game for his willingness to stand up for his beliefs. Jay doesn’t know how to hold guys accountable or put points on the board, some may view those as attenuating characteristics for an offensive head coach. 

 

No team would blame Jay for leaving, he could bet on his value and leave without any organization thinking less of him. Jay seems like a fine fellow, but he’s as easy to prepare for as you would be. No offense ...

 

get it? 

 

[Peregrine]

6 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

Or as you said, he could just throw it away, find another job, another place.. But that doesn't make you look good, and probably Jay would find it unfair to the players, especially if you do it early in your tenure.

Early in his tenure????? Its been 5 freakin' years!  What on earth are you smoking...

[RWJ]

I could see Dan trying to again persuade Bill Cowher (big name) to come out of retirement and ask him to become GM/HC for 15 mill a year on a 5 year deal.  I don't advocate that but I could see Dan enticed and try to do something like that.  

[Wildbunny]

3 hours ago, volsmet said:

 

No team would blame Jay for leaving, he could bet on his value and leave without any organization thinking less of him. Jay seems like a fine fellow, but he’s as easy to prepare for as you would be. No offense ...

 

get it?

Quitting on a job makes you a quitter. You sure you would want a quitter as a HC?

Probably not.

 

There's only 32 HC and 32 OC jobs in the NFL. So opportunities are rares.  Bellichick had to wait 5 years between his stint in Cleveland and the Pats. They don't come up easy.

Then it depends on the way you go away. Either you keep it within close quarters, or you take it public, and as Ihenacho said lately on a tweet it does make you look bad, no matter what. Which isn't looking for your next employer because they might get the same treamtment.

 

Jay has been our monthly employee of the month since calling out RG3 his first year. And he still is, probably waiting for Black Monday and being fired, because that's still the best way to get out of here.

 

2 hours ago, Peregrine said:

Early in his tenure????? Its been 5 freakin' years!  What on earth are you smoking...

That was an hyoithetical sentence.

This **** show has been running for years and didn't stopped when Jay arrived to start again this year...

[Burgold]

What would happen if the Vikings lost and somehow against all reason the Redskins pulled out the upset against the Eagles? Could the Redskins actually be the team to help the Vikings back into the playoffs?

 

What would that do to Dan and Bruce?

[goskins10]

2 minutes ago, Burgold said:

What would happen if the Vikings lost and somehow against all reason the Redskins pulled out the upset against the Eagles? Could the Redskins actually be the team to help the Vikings back into the playoffs?

 

What would that do to Dan and Bruce?

 

Probably but I do not know all the permutations 

 

Nothing 

 

But not going to happen. I see a big loss today - of course it would just be the Redskins thing to do to come up with a win. {Perfect reason to keep allen another year or maybe even another decade. 

[Burgold]

There would be a delicious kind of irony for someone as petty as Bruce Allen to deal with the fact that his team got KC to the playoffs. I think it'd drive him and Snyder a little nuts. As you said though, I expect us to lose and lose badly. Then again, I expected us to get crushed the last two games too.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

What would happen if the Vikings lost and somehow against all reason the Redskins pulled out the upset against the Eagles? Could the Redskins actually be the team to help the Vikings back into the playoffs?

 

What would that do to Dan and Bruce?

 

According to Sheehan he heard it would give Dan and Bruce major cognitive dissonance. They'd be then rooting for the Vikings to lose in the playoffs.

4 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

Quitting on a job makes you a quitter. You sure you would want a quitter as a HC?

Probably not.

 

There's only 32 HC and 32 OC jobs in the NFL. So opportunities are rares.  Bellichick had to wait 5 years between his stint in Cleveland and the Pats. They don't come up easy.

 

 

Also good luck finding your next support staff.  As many who cover the team have said people lose sight that the HC is responsible for a lot of jobs below them.  So you quitting means all the support staff and families leave with you.  Easy for us to say just take it on the chin and make all the people below you take it on the chin, too.  But would we really do that ourselves?

 

You quit, you forfeit your salary.  If you guys recall the FO wanted Zorn to quit and made his life miserable to do it.  But he wouldn't do it.  So eventually they fired him.

 

People want Jay or whichever new head coach to go full Marty and tell Bruce-Dan off until they get fired and are one and done here.  But Marty was unique no one else dared to do the same thing.   According to Chris Russell -- Bruce-Jay had major tension last year over how Bruce handled FA -- so I gather from that Jay is willing to stand up to the dude but not to the degree of quitting.  If I recall Jay at that point had at least 10 million left on his contract -- how many of us would say screw the 10 million?  I'll forfeit it to make a point. 

 

All these people who can't stand Jay my issue with it isn't even the criticism with Jay (I agree with some of the criticism and disagree with some of it) I think it feeds into what Bruce-Dan want by implying Jay is the problem not them.  IMO if you want Jay out -- you push Bruce out first.  Otherwise if Dan is tapping into fan sentiment (maybe he is maybe he isn't) he'd think I change the coach then the fans are happy and I'd keep my buddy Bruce in the building just like he did for Vinny for years. 

 

If Jay is the lead dance to the angst or even if it flows in tandem with Bruce I think it plays into Dan's hands.  Hey the fans are just flailing, they don't like anyone.   I noticed some of the Jay critics on twitter have settled down and their angst is almost squarely focused on Bruce-Dan.  That's smart IMO.    If its about everyone IMO it comes off more like flailing and just general dissatisfaction with this season-record.  If Jay is the problem -- Bruce might be OK -- the dude is just underachieving with the roster being handed to him.  Not that I think Dan reads this forum but just a general point from me. 😎

 

 

This is one of the Football outsiders guys

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Albert Breer is one of the most plugged in reporters, rep wise. Loverro said weeks back, that while Lafemina is getting some play as a stadium guy, Bruce from what he heard was still involved, saying he talked to some people on the backend of this deal-government officials I presume who said the guy they were hearing from specifically on the issue was Bruce.

 

 

 

 

 

Loverro

 

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/dec/27/redskins-do-the-right-thing-era-was-doomed-from-th/

 

The Christmas purge of Redskins chief operating officer Brian Lafemina and his band of suits — chief marketing officer Steve Ziff, senior vice president of sales and marketing Jake Bye and chief commercial officer Todd Kline — took far less time than I predicted a month ago.

 

But make no mistake, it was the Foster acquisition that was the tipping point that sped up the exit of the group of imported executives brought in last summer to save this franchise from a dwindling and angry fan base that isn’t coming to watch them at Ghost Town Field and isn’t watching them on television.

Lafemina went to owner Dan Snyder and team president Bruce Allen with direct feedback from corporate ticketholders upset with Foster signing, according to sources. They lost that battle — and the war.

 

You can’t bring in a small army of executives — led by Lafemina, a former high-ranking and respected NFL league executive — to change the image and perception of this troubled franchise and then bring an accused woman beater to an organization that, among other things, was ground zero for the NFL’s cheerleader sexploitation scandal.

 

Foster’s guilt or innocence made no difference. It was a decision that insulted and ignored the attempts by Lafemina and company to try to “do the right thing” every day for 1,000 days, as he put it.

It was the signal that Bruce Allen — the Prince of Darkness — not Lafemina, had Snyder’s ear.

Snyder, actually, had tired of the new business sermon at Redskins Park preached by Lafemina — this notion of truth and transparency.

 

That’s not the way either Snyder or Allen have ever done business, and the idea either could change was doomed from the start — from the moment Lafemina met with reporters in a conference room at Redskins Park last summer and talked about the team coming clean about the fraudulent season-ticket waiting list and the position that the team was a “sleeping giant.”

I was in the room at the time, and I thought at any moment, Allen would push a button and the whole floor would collapse and everyone disappear forever.

 

He did just that, eventually.

He just waited until several days before Christmas. Happy holidays.

 

Type the words “Redskins” and “embarrassment” into Google, and nearly 300,000 results come up. Shame is nearly a synonym for Redskins.

 

...I think Snyder and Allen told everyone that they don’t care. They don’t care what the league thinks, they don’t care what the fans think, they don’t care what the sponsors think — they just don’t care. Those people don’t exist in the world of Snyder and Allen — a small, dark universe that is destroying itself like a cosmic black hole.

[RemoveSnyder]

34 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I was in the room at the time, and I thought at any moment, Allen would push a button and the whole floor would collapse and everyone disappear forever.

 

Hahahaha 🤣. Bruce really is a scooby doo villain. 

 

 

[XtremeFan55]

Good luck analyzing this team over the next 4 years.  Has there EVER been a year under Snyder that wasn’t full of petty drama?  Spectacular firings.....undermining coaches...snubbing some players and pampering others....leaked stories by anonymous sources.....public battles....players calling out coaches then getting the ax.....on and on and on...  Redskins are a text book example of how not to run a business or organization.  You need to add another name to that list of people that have to go....Tony Wylie.  He is most definitely that anonymous source that leaks stories to the media.   This team is rotten to the core and it will never be able to change it’s spots until the owner sells and is gone.  The two things that I hope for is that Bezos comes to Washington and makes an offer too good for Snyder to ignore or that Snyder gets caught with his pants down with one of his cheerleaders and Tanya ends up with the team after a divorce.   Both seem pretty remote therefore I like many have moved on to better run and more successful teams just to keep my interest in the NFL from totally going away.  With the Browns now respectable, the Redskins now carry the mantle of most inept team in the NFL.  Welcome to the new Factory of Sadness.

[Redskin4ever]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Albert Breer is one of the most plugged in reporters, rep wise. Loverro said weeks back, that while Lafemina is getting some play as a stadium guy, Bruce from what he heard was still involved, saying he talked to some people on the backend of this deal-government officials I presume who said the guy they were hearing from specifically on the issue was Bruce.

 

 

 

 

I was hearing this rumor even back before the wheels fell off this season. I think the Redskins were at the high point of 6-3 when I heard people talking about how Bruce would be around until a stadium deal was made, and then he would be done. I said to the person telling me this that I wanted them to get a deal now if that were the case. This person is not some insider, he was just bringing up the rumor mill. I'm just bringing up that this has been a popular take all season. This weeks events actually put a negative spin on that rumor since it could mean a few more years with this guy.

[Riggo#44]

On 12/27/2018 at 11:00 AM, Andre The Giant said:

i don’t want any returns. Give me a proven, modern NFL GM that’s been known to hit on top talent (similar to John Dorsey, I’d take Steve Keim if the Cardinals fire him) or an unproven young guy who’s an up-and-comer (e.g. Cleveland’s Elliot Wolf).

 

Really. What's he point? This is NEVER going to happen. Ever. They MAY bring in someone good, interesting, only to fire him because Bruce is threatened or Snyder isn't having fun.

 

Seriously, it's better to be a Browns fan.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, Riggo#44 said:

Seriously, it's better to be a Browns fan.

Funny you say that, it wasn’t that long ago a thread was created about the Browns, and some folks here lost their mind at the thought they would surpass us.  Yet here we are.