Makaveli

The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

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Look at the value of his picks ( and this includes undrafted players, as they count as players scouted)

 

1. D Payne : starter

2. D Guice : starter/injured

3. G Christianson : recently started filling in at RT with success 

4. T Apke : key role player

5. T Settle : key role player

6. S Hamilton : tbd

7. G Stroman : cut

7. T Quinn : starting slot wr ( for now)

 

1. D Haskins : tbd

1. M Sweat : starting edge

3. T McLaurin : starting WR1

4. B Love : tbd injured

4. W Martin : depth

5. R Pierschbacher : depth 

5. C Holcomb : starting ILB

6. K Harmon : starting WR2

7. J Moreland : starting slot corner

7. J Brailford : TBD Injured
 

undrafted. S Sims : starting returner/slot wr

 

Edited by Skin'emAlive
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1 minute ago, NickyJ said:

Which player do you think sucked most? Chase Roullier, Jonathan Allen, Fabian Moreau, Daron Payne, Derrius Guice, Tim Settle, Troy Apke, Shaun Dion Hamilton, Montez Sweat, Terry McLauren, Cole Holcomb, Kelvin Harmon, or Jimmy Moreland?

2018 Draft

1 Payne- Great player. Maybe a future Pro bowler

2 Guice- 42 carries in 2 years. Bust

3 Christian- Bust

4 Apke- Bust

5- Settle Good player

6- Dion Hamilton. Decent player. May get better

7- Stroman-bust

7- Quinn-WR that cannot catch. Bust

 

2018 Supplemental Draft:

6- Adonnis Alexander-Bust

 

2019 Draft:

1- Haskins- Too early to tell but looks like a monumental bust.

1- Sweat- Who knows. Has been better as of late.

3 McLaurin- Great pick and player. Possible future Pro Bowler.

4- Love- Who knows 4th rounder with a blown out ACL

4- Wes Martin- Who knows. 

5- Piersbacher- Who knows hasnt touched the field

5- Holcomb- Great pick. Looks like a decent starter

6- Harmon Great pick. Looks like decent starter.

7- Moerland- Good pick. Has been up and down. But a nice pick in the 7th round.

7-Brailford- Who knows. Hasnt seen the field.

 

This is ONLY the two drafts where Smith was in charge. He has been here for 9 years. NINE YEARS OF TRASH results. IMO and it is only MO he has not earned or shown the ability to lead a franchise in any way.

 

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I want you to go and compare the success rate of his last 2 drafts with any other GM in the league. Those guys are stellar value for the positions they were picked and have supplanted within 2 years. Additionally, there are many roles within scouting, and he did not have the same role then as he does now. I think you have no idea what you are talking about 

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15 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

This is ONLY the two drafts where Smith was in charge. He has been here for 9 years. NINE YEARS OF TRASH results. IMO and it is only MO he has not earned or shown the ability to lead a franchise in any way. 

My mistake, he didn't handle the 2017 draft. But I don't understand how you can take two completely opposite facts and use them both as proof that he'd be a bad GM. For 7 years, he was one single scout. How can you hold a single scout accountable for ALL the players the Redskins have drafted in 9 years? Heck, he probably wasn't even attending the draft when those picks were made  in his first 7 years lol. I'm convinced you know better than that.

 

Additionally, you list Trey Quinn as a bust. You list Mr. Irrelevant as a bust. The 256th player picked in the draft.... is a bust. That someone could even himself that the last pick in the draft could be a starting slot receiver is enough to make him not a bust lol. More to the point, anyone after the third round is going to be depth on average. There's a chance that they might turn into decent starters, but to expect more than depth is too much to ask. Half of that depth sticks past their rookie contract. Half of it doesn't, which is why they got picked late in the draft.

 

My point isn't that Kyle Smith is a slam dunk GM and needs to be the guy starting yesterday. My point is that he isn't a slam dunk failure that you make him out to be.

Edited by NickyJ
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1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

 

 

You had me until here. There are a lot of older, more mature, that have seen a lot players and other NFL people that have no business being a GM. That is not a qualification for being a GM. And just to piss off dallast is the worst reason ever. How about we piss them off by getting a competent GM, building a solid team. and beating their ****ing asses every year! Now that will piss them off in a meaningful way. 

 

Now that is something I can support strongly!   :dallas_sucks: 

 

 

I'm not comparing Troy to young hot shot GM type, I'm specifically comparing his maturity to Cooley, Smith and Hall.  And I think age and experience probably help him against those 3 folks. Maybe not Smith.  With Smith it's more that Aikamn has just seen more different things than Smith because Smith has been with 3 teams, and Aikman has been watching the entire league for the last 15 years.  

 

In this scenario (and again, I'm opposed to this to begin with), the best case is we hire Troy, and he leads us to beating up on the Cowboys for a decade, and that would REALLY piss them off. :) And they'd be asking why Jerrah didn't hire golden boy and fire himself as GM.  

 

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1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I'm not comparing Troy to young hot shot GM type, I'm specifically comparing his maturity to Cooley, Smith and Hall.  And I think age and experience probably help him against those 3 folks. Maybe not Smith.  With Smith it's more that Aikamn has just seen more different things than Smith because Smith has been with 3 teams, and Aikman has been watching the entire league for the last 15 years.  

 

In this scenario (and again, I'm opposed to this to begin with), the best case is we hire Troy, and he leads us to beating up on the Cowboys for a decade, and that would REALLY piss them off. :) And they'd be asking why Jerrah didn't hire golden boy and fire himself as GM.  

 

 

Right until he takes us on another 10 yr pit of desperation trail. 

 

I get what you are saying and I am saying that even as a comparison to those other 3, I do not see enough separation to make any difference. I just see them as all **** choices. 

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If they botch the FO shakeup a third time, it's going to be the final straw for a great many of the few remaining fans. 

 

We've suffered through 20 years of Vinny and Bruce.  There will be at least a dead cat bounce of optimism within the fanbase regardless of who comes next, simply because Bruce is gone- but what if it ends up being more of the same?  If Snyder's ineptitude prevails once again (and let's be honest, it probably will) nothing short of selling the team will appease whatever carcass of a fanbase remain at that point.

 

My fear is we're only 2/3rds of the way through the tunnel.  Sweet Oden's Raven do I hope I'm wrong.

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52 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Mine keeps sending me results regarding tenniswomen...

I get tennis updates.  But I am a tennis fan.  So that makes sense.  

 

There was a time I could name off the top 30 men and women tennis players at any given time. 

 

However now all the women come from Eastern Europe and have the same name so it’s impossible to remember the difference between Civulkova vs. Petrova vs. ... Though Sharapova I got.  

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18 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I get tennis updates.  But I am a tennis fan.  So that makes sense.  

 

There was a time I could name off the top 30 men and women tennis players at any given time. 

 

However now all the women come from Eastern Europe and have the same name so it’s impossible to remember the difference between Civulkova vs. Petrova vs. ... Though Sharapova I got.  

Tennis fan?  I thought those were like mermaids and didn't really exist. :)

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@Skinsinparadise I kinda disagree with Standing, though I like his work in general. I think he's reaching.  

 

1. I am sure that Allen has been playing a part up until now to evaluate candidates, because everybody, him, Dan, etc. probably thought he was coming back no matter what until 3 weeks ago.  So I'm sure he had a hand in the list being put together.

 

2. Which means nothing, really.  If Dan decide to can Allen, whoever takes over will probably start with his list and either add to it or subtract from it. Or possible circular file the whole thing and start over.  

 

I don't think the list of names, or the fact they are evaluating other coaches really has hidden information on Allen's future.

 

Also, Allen knows his future already.  Dan wouldn't leave him hanging like he has Norv and Jay.  I'm sure they are already on the same page with whatever the answer is.  If he's going to be let go, or he's going to retire, or if he's going to be back, I'd be willing to bet that decision has been made and communicated between Dan and Bruce.  

 

Assuming he's gone, it's a matter of timing, when the new person can start so they can make both announcements together, and messaging.  

 

The fact it's taking a while to me indicates that there is still work being done to get the future state in place, and it's possible one of the folks involved still has a job.  

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1 hour ago, clskinsfan said:

7- Quinn-WR that cannot catch. Bust

 

Labeling a 7th round pick who made the 53 man roster a bust is insane.  At that draft position, you are ahead of the curve if the player makes any contributions at all.

 

His catch % is already higher than Josh Doctson's.  Perhaps if we actually develop him, we'll get better production.  If not, we can cut him and watch him have an 800 yard season with the Pats.

 

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13 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

Tennis fan?  I thought those were like mermaids and didn't really exist. :)

No, we exist.  

 

In the 70's and 80's, Tennis was pretty big in the US.  Since then, it has gone down hill.  Which is unfortunate.  It's a really competitive, 1:1 sport.  

 

And the top 3 men, Federer, Dokavic and Nadal might just be the 3 best players in the history of the game, and they are all playing at the same time, and that's really fun to see.  

 

For those of us that care.  

 

There was a time in the mid-2000's when I would argue Federer did his job better than 1. anybody else in the world was doing their job and 2. did his job better than anybody ever had done his job.  It was remarkable.  He basically went 5 years and lost 6 meaningful matches.  That wold be like Tiger Woods winning every tournament he entered for 5 years in a row.  There's never been anything quite like it.

 

But I digress. 

 

Bruce Allen sucks.  #FireBruceAllen 

 

EDIT: also, if you are so inclined, check out Reddit's TennisButts subredit.  You'll be a fan in no time.  Promise. :) (Though, I might not do that at work.) 

 

9 minutes ago, daveakl said:

My money is he retires/is let go on December 20th

I would not take that bet.  I think that it's either this Friday or next.  

Edited by Voice_of_Reason
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4 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

@Skinsinparadise I kinda disagree with Standing, though I like his work in general. I think he's reaching.  

 

1. I am sure that Allen has been playing a part up until now to evaluate candidates, because everybody, him, Dan, etc. probably thought he was coming back no matter what until 3 weeks ago.  So I'm sure he had a hand in the list being put together.

 

2. Which means nothing, really.  If Dan decide to can Allen, whoever takes over will probably start with his list and either add to it or subtract from it. Or possible circular file the whole thing and start over.  

 

I don't think the list of names, or the fact they are evaluating other coaches really has hidden information on Allen's future.

 

Also, Allen knows his future already.  Dan wouldn't leave him hanging like he has Norv and Jay.  I'm sure they are already on the same page with whatever the answer is.  If he's going to be let go, or he's going to retire, or if he's going to be back, I'd be willing to bet that decision has been made and communicated between Dan and Bruce.  

 

Assuming he's gone, it's a matter of timing, when the new person can start so they can make both announcements together, and messaging.  

 

The fact it's taking a while to me indicates that there is still work being done to get the future state in place, and it's possible one of the folks involved still has a job.  


I agree with this.  Last time Snyder made big changes he had Allen / Shanahan lined up before letting Vinnie go.

 

They’re likely lining up future plans / options now.  Unlike when Gibbs left, Dan’s had plenty of time to plan. 

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Chris Russell from Capitol Connection Podcast-

 

"He's downsized here in Northern Virginia. I've been told other people in his administration were preparing their houses, preparing their future because they know it's over. Um..he was saying goodbye to people I heard, ya know, around the organization in a non Bruce way on Sunday night when they realized it was over...I mean, the gigs up. Like, you know, it's not working it's never going to work."

Edited by actorguy1

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2 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:


He has had that role for 2 years, and most of his picks are now starters. I would argue he has found phenomenal value out of the draft. 

 

He doesnt make the picks though.  Never have you heard Kyle Smith being responsible for a draft pick.  How the  board that he helps put together turns into players, we really have no idea.  All we ever hear is how X person was Jay's pick or Bruce's pick, or Snyder really liked a guy.

 

I assume the war room in the Bruce, Dan, and Jay era went something like: 

 

Kyle: If Bill Johnson, S from Alabama Tech is available at 157, we should take him.

 

Bruce, Dan, and Jay: That's dynamite, Kid, but we'll take it from here.  *Proceeds to do what they want*

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3 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:

Look at the value of his picks ( and this includes undrafted players, as they count as players scouted)

 

1. D Payne : starter

2. D Guice : starter/injured

3. G Christianson : recently started filling in at RT with success 

4. T Apke : key role player

5. T Settle : key role player

6. S Hamilton : tbd

7. G Stroman : cut

7. T Quinn : starting slot wr ( for now)

 

1. D Haskins : tbd

1. M Sweat : starting edge

3. T McLaurin : starting WR1

4. B Love : tbd injured

4. W Martin : depth

5. R Pierschbacher : depth 

5. C Holcomb : starting ILB

6. K Harmon : starting WR2

7. J Moreland : starting slot corner

7. J Brailford : TBD Injured
 

undrafted. S Sims : starting returner/slot wr

 

 

Somebody being a starter or even being on the roster doesnt necessarily mean anything.  A lot of our drafted guys make the team, didnt make them any good really. 

 

The jury is basically still out on everybody not named Payne or McLaurin.  Guys like Holcomb, Harmon, and Settle seem like they dont suck, but I'm not ready to call them building blocks either.  The rest are meh until proven otherwise, IMO.

 

Even giving Smith credit for Mclaurin, who seems like the best pick in a while, feels dubious.   Because wasnt the story that Bruce and Jay fell in love with him by accident at the Haskins workout?  So he seemingly wasnt on the list of guys that Smith presumably would have told them that they need to see.  I'm speculating, but the story was never that this was a Kyle Smith find he should get a lot of credit for.

Edited by justice98
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I don't think that Dan wants to embarrass his BFF, so he'll let Bruce announce soon that he's going to retire at the end of the season. This allows Dan to openly carry out a search for a new guy and maybe even get Bruce's input on who it should be.

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6 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

Somebody being a starter or even being on the roster doesnt necessarily mean anything.  A lot of our drafted guys make the team, didnt make them any good really. 

 

The jury is basically still out on everybody not named Payne or McLaurin.  Guys like Holcomb, Harmon, and Settle seem like they dont suck, but I'm not ready to call them building blocks either.  The rest are meh until proven otherwise, IMO.

 

Exactly. THIS was my point. Just because they are starting doesnt mean they are any good. This roster sucks. And the results bear that out. Am I excited about a few young guys on the roster? Yes I am. But the only reason they are playing right now is because of the crappy results. 

 

I will also add that I am not just bashing Smith here. I dont believe ANYONE in this front office deserves to keep their job. EVERYONE needs to go.

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55 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Right until he takes us on another 10 yr pit of desperation trail. 

 

I get what you are saying and I am saying that even as a comparison to those other 3, I do not see enough separation to make any difference. I just see them as all **** choices. 

I’m not particularly down with the idea of Aikman, but I think there’s actually a lot to like about him.  He’s been around football for a long time, including Super Bowl experience, he probably has a lot of relationships built up, and most importantly, I believe he has the demeanor and personality I’d want in a GM - measured/thoughtful, he comes across as respectful and humble and I’m pretty sure he would be about the opposite of a sleazy yes man.  

I actually think there are serious positives to the Washington job too.  You’d have to be polite, but firm with Snyder, but he’s willing to spend and has shown a lot of patience with his GMs (to a fault).  While the fan base is probably at its worst state in history and org is a mess, there’s probably nowhere to go but up.  There’s also a lot of youth on the team, we’re getting an early draft pick, have decent cap space (more to come when Smith leaves), you get to choose your coach right off the bat and the honeymoon phase should give you some time to further develop and add to the young roster.  There’s the added benefit that failure here will probably be looked upon less negatively and you have a chance to turn around a storied franchise.  Now, buried in there are also some negatives to coming here, but still - there are significant positives.  
 

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27 minutes ago, actorguy1 said:

Chris Russell from Capitol Connection Podcast-

 

"He's downsized here in Northern Virginia. I've been told other people in his administration were preparing their houses, preparing their future because they know it's over. Um..he was saying goodbye to people I heard, ya know, around the organization in a non Bruce way on Sunday night when they realized it was over...I mean, the gigs up. Like, you know, it's not working it's never going to work."

The season has been over as far as the playoffs are concerned for a long time. Why was Sunday viewed as some kind of major finality? That just seems so bizarre to me. Were the people inside Redskin Park really thinking that there was a chance to make the playoffs? And once they were officially eliminated there was some kind of major let down? I swear, this organization...…  SMH.

Edited by Alexa

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5 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Exactly. THIS was my point. Just because they are starting doesnt mean they are any good. This roster sucks. And the results bear that out. Am I excited about a few young guys on the roster? Yes I am. But the only reason they are playing right now is because of the crappy results. 

 

I think every player from the disastrous 2008 draft made the roster. Somebody probably did one of those value charts then too. lol

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4 hours ago, KillBill26 said:

I know Ted Thompson was loathed by a lot of Packers fans, and many were ready to see McCarthy go.  So are you wishing these 2 guys upon us like I would wish Jim Zorn as hc and Bruce Allen as gm for the cowboys?

I was only joking lol. I wouldn't wish those 2 upon you guys.

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