Common Kirk....I just don't know....

[Skinsinparadise]

34 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

As a more general point from this thread, I'm not sure why the reference to 'haters' and 'anti-Kirk' crowd have crept in. I think it's a pretty balanced debate overall and it's really easy to see why people have differing views.

 

You have multiple opinions on this thread about Kirk. I agree.  But I'll go on the leap that there is more negativity than positivity on this thread. The thrust of the thread was about questioning whether Kirk is the right guy.   And that's fine.  To each their own.  It's all opinion.

 

My post to you didn't use the label anti-Kirk or Kirk haters so I assume you aren't referring to me.  I am trying to label it as critics of Kirk which seems to be on point, I got to go back and look at older posts to see if I ever slipped into labeling it differently. 

 

Having said that, I get the labeling in some cases.  And it cuts both ways.  The thing about the Kirk debate is it goes back for months and some of us recall the opinions and posting history of others.  So when we see opinions creep in here we know where its coming from and have context to it.   And that goes both ways -- pro and con Kirk.   It's not personal on my end.   It's just discussion.  While I don't agree with it all, I got no problem with anything you've said so my responses are all in good spirits.

[NewCliche21]

On 9/15/2017 at 2:19 PM, NoCalMike said:

Forget the "highest paid" term, because next year someone else's contract will top his of course. Look at it more like his contract vs. what is left for salary cap purposes I guess?

 

That I can go with.  Just that some people keep making it seem like him making more than others in some way affects our team.  Your explanation is clearly only related to our team, so I can understand what you're saying.

[evmiii]

Just to be clear, I am by no means a KC hater.  While I agree he is going to get overpaid by some team (maybe the Redskins), it's not my money and my only concern is the impact on the cap.   My concern is seems we always have to wonder we are going to get good Kirk or bad Kirk?  Good KC is pretty darn good, see's the whole field, secures the ball, finds the right guy  and gets rid of the ball on time.  Bad KC can be pretty bad,  holds the ball too long, does not secure ball (int, fumble).

 

i think consistency is an admirable trait in a QB.  I fully understand that his overall success depends on many others, but I can't recall a game when good KC was on his game and we lost badly.  Would a running game help, without a doubt.  Would recievers catching all the balls help, absolutely.  I think we would all agree that better OL play would help.  But the QB has to perform also, and I don't think KC has done this under the brightest lights very consistently.

 

I hope he excels tomorrow, but more importantly I hope he can consistently play well.  HTTR!

[Est.1974]

31 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

My post to you didn't use the label anti-Kirk or Kirk haters so I assume you aren't referring to me.

 

No I wasn't 

[OlufemiBiz]

*"How 'bout 'that Riley Ferguson [Memphis University QB (#4) - He succeeded Paxton Lynch]'?!?

 

 

I watched him best UCLA QB Josh Rosen (who looked too-much like Cousins), this afternoon!!!

 

And...

 

His (former 'Walk-On') 'Go-To WR', Anthony Miller (#3), is a 'Stud'!!!

 

 

[zCommander]

16 hours ago, BTBIRD 227 said:

Sorry about the post . still having issues with internet. I live in Fla, and having issues with post Hurricane Irma .

 Anyway, Cousins is not on board with his receivers . I about fell out of my chair a few weeks ago , when Cousins stated  it will take about 4 games to get in sync with his receivers. So I guess we are going 0 and 4 or maybe 0 and 5 before we realize a Redskin victory.

If Cousins  requires all this infusion  of talent and not able to produce and somehow the Skins assemble a team around Cousins , despite his lack of being s team leader, Cousins will just and always be a passenger on a fast moving bus.  sorry about the last 2 posts. Hail

 

I am not sure why you fell out of your chair. I heard the same thing. So what we go 0-4 before the bye-week. After the bye-week will go 12-4. Now you can get back on your chair.

[Bonez3]

I don't know if I get an 'anti-Curt' label, but I've always rooted for him. I feel like I'm being awfully objective when I'm saying he's an average QB with a turnover problem. He's like Cutler, only not a good QB

[Wyvern]

It may take 4 weeks for Doctson to even show up!

 

And take off the Burgundy-tinted lenses -- Pryor is still learning.

 

Reed and Crowder are hobbled and getting used to a more crowded defensive zone against the short-to-medium pass.  Until some Skins WR can stretch defenses deeper -- Skins WRs are going to have to find ways to get separation and make tough catches.  Folks, we're having to rely on Grant!  Do you believe the receiving corps is clicking now?

[RonBurgandy]

Correct me if I'm viewing our KC situation wrongly, but I feel as fans we're in a win-win situation. If he does great, obviously our team should clinch at least a wild card spot for the playoffs. If his performances are inconsistent and underwhelming, then we dump him and his large contract. Kirk wanted this, he got it. If you're going to bet on yourself then you best damn well better have the mindset and skills to handel the pressure. Yes, as fans we want to win now, but we may** been saved from being stuck with an below average QB and no $$ to do anything going forward. 

[Wyvern]

...Or we've willingly jettisoned a key part of the offense that makes it go.  

 

I'm tired of Cousins being considered the scapegoat for a wimpy running game.  And who on the Skins receiving corps have proven themselves yet -- maybe except for Reed (when healthy).  Or an O-line that hasn't shown much yet.  And a defense that can't close down vs. a 3rd down play!

 

IMHO, the Skins blew up their receiving corps, and stood pat with a less-than-stellar O-Line that can't run block worth a ****.  But heck, the QB should be able to solve all of that, right?

[JSSkinz]

I don't know whats worse, the fact we gave up 2 first rounders for RG3 or that we wasted 3 years of Kirks rookie contract before we understood he could lead our team.

 

The RG3 trade has kicked our ass in more ways than the lost picks.

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

The play caller should have changed up the scheme to account for the pressure. Shoot..Gibbs used to just send one guy out at times. Max protect. With these timing routes they should be quick outs for completions. Too many stuffed runs and dropped passes. I just don't understand how the Skins KEEP coming out FLAT in the opener. Maybe Gruden should put pads on early and hit. These guys seem pampered to me. Be a Coughlin sometimes.

 

I just think they are soft and Doctson is a perfect example. A little Shanny wind sprints conditioning test is in order

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, OlufemiBiz said:

*"How 'bout 'that Riley Ferguson [Memphis University QB (#4) - He succeeded Paxton Lynch]'?!?

 

 What I saw today was mostly a one read, read option system.  I am guessing Jay might hesitate on that. 

 

5 hours ago, OlufemiBiz said:

 

I watched him best UCLA QB Josh Rosen (who looked too-much like Cousins), this afternoon!!

 

 

I don't want Rosen nor do I think he could be gotten. I think he will go before our pick.  But in his defense, yeah sometimes QBs throw interceptions.  And they are actually forgiven for them.   Rosen was big time clutch in an epic game not long ago. 

 

2 hours ago, Wyvern said:

 

I'm tired of Cousins being considered the scapegoat for a wimpy running game.  

 

I was thinking about this today.  What have been Kirk's worse games?  For the most part, they have been against teams with really really good front 7s (especially D line) in combination with the Redskins not being able to run a lick against them.  In these games, the running backs tend to be completely absolved by some and Kirk takes the full burden of the blame.   And my thought here isn't about who is to blame but the idea that its really hard to beat a great front 7 when they don't respect your running game where all they need to concern themselves is to pressure the QB.   

 

In 2015 for example, the Jets weren't the toughest foe Kirk faced but it was his worst game.  Again killer D line.  Zilch running game.  Last year it was the Giants-Carolina.  Again killer D line.  Zilch running game.  That's why I think this next one against the Rams will be a tougher game for Kirk than the Raiders game.  I don't buy the idea that if they lose to the Rams they are going 0-4 as some say especially on talk radio.  I like their chances against the Raiders.  But the more I think about I really don't like tomorrow's match up unless the Redskins can run the ball for a change.  

 

In short, I think they can get by with a toothless running game when they are playing an ordinary front.  I don't think they can survive it though against a really good front.  And that's not unique to Kirk its endemic to most of the league's QBs.

[skinny21]

@SkinsinparadiseYeah, the biggest concern I had going into the Eagles game was their dline/front 7 getting/causing turnovers.  Particularly vs Long, Lauvao, but also Scherff and Moses to an extent.  

 

Going forward, I hope Gruden makes some adjustments to his planning when facing stout fronts.  I did notice he used some screens and outside runs to this affect.  I also think that's maybe part of the reason he went for the deep pass early - to stretch the field to (hopefully) force the corners to play off and the safeties deep.  Open up the run game a bit, as well as the quick hitters.  In his post game presser, Gruden talked about needing to help Kirk get settled in a bit quicker (mentioned the hurry up helped, which I and others have brought up frequently).  Point being, I think this game maybe helped Gruden see what to expect against good front 7s.  I hope so anyway.  

 

 

[dav87sc]

19 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

@SkinsinparadiseGoing forward, I hope Gruden makes some adjustments to his planning when facing stout fronts.  I did notice he used some screens and outside runs to this affect.  I also think that's maybe part of the reason he went for the deep pass early - to stretch the field to (hopefully) force the corners to play off and the safeties deep.  Open up the run game a bit, as well as the quick hitters.  In his post game presser, Gruden talked about needing to help Kirk get settled in a bit quicker (mentioned the hurry up helped, which I and others have brought up frequently).   

How many times last season did we hear this same reflection about Kirk needing to get settled quicker or to start faster.  Many times I have read you regular posters discuss this at great length.  If the coach isn't finding what works to get him to start faster, especially in games with a stout front 7, what does that say?  It doesn't seem to me(reading the game postmortems here in the Stadium) that Gruden has used all of the potential options at his disposal in play calling.  I wonder if that is because he doesn't see it while it is happening? he locks himself(and Kirk) in by sticking to a script? he doesn't trust Kirk to make the correct reads/throws and thus doesn't call those plays? he doesn't have confidence in the young receiving core yet this year? I don't know if it is any one of or a combination of all of those.

 

What I do know, is that Kirk as the QB, captain, and potential face of this franchise, has to find a way to make this (starting quickly) happen.  He can't ride it out, wait to see how/if coach will make the necessary changes or play calls, or just accept mediocrity for those games.  This has to be an internal battle he is willing to acknowledge is there, have with himself, and make whatever mental changes he needs to make in order to put this behind him. 

[skinny21]

Well, my take is that Cousins overthinks things at times, when he really just needs to go out and play.  I can relate a bit, so it could be I'm projecting.  I also imagine the minutiae and preparation for the position exacerbates this.  Telling yourself not to overthink things is a bit like trying to will yourself to sleep.  

 

So, again, I think Gruden can help him out with things like the hurry up and high percentage throws at the start of games (and seasons, lol).  This could come across as a big negative, but I don't think it's that big of a deal.  The problem becomes - what if you're seeing a lot of pressure, or if your run game doesn't help you out?  What if you feel like you have to carry the team because the defense is struggling?  What if your receivers are dropping passes?  What if all of those things are happening?  Certainly can't help things.  

 

As the defense continues to show improvement, I think that will allow Kirk to more easily shrug off some missed throws and stalled drives and take some of that pressure off.  I'm less optimistic about improvement in the run game, pass pro, and with the receivers, but the Eagles were a tough first outing with a very good front and DC.  So happens that Kirk had to also deal with a receiving group that were new or injured in camp (outside of Grant).  

 

Long story short, I think Kirk will be fine this year, but it will take some help from the players/coaches around him to succeed vs good defenses.  The biggest thing Kirk can do for himself is making sure he sets his feet.  

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, skinny21 said:

@SkinsinparadiseYeah, the biggest concern I had going into the Eagles game was their dline/front 7 getting/causing turnovers.  Particularly vs Long, Lauvao, but also Scherff and Moses to an extent.  

 

Going forward, I hope Gruden makes some adjustments to his planning when facing stout fronts.  I did notice he used some screens and outside runs to this affect.  I also think that's maybe part of the reason he went for the deep pass early - to stretch the field to (hopefully) force the corners to play off and the safeties deep.  Open up the run game a bit, as well as the quick hitters.  In his post game presser, Gruden talked about needing to help Kirk get settled in a bit quicker (mentioned the hurry up helped, which I and others have brought up frequently).  Point being, I think this game maybe helped Gruden see what to expect against good front 7s.  I hope so anyway.  

 

 

 

Funny enough while I like Chris Russell, I don't really see him as an X and O's guy.  So I ignore him on that front, typically. But he's been screaming about this point all off season -- which is you can't bank on Kirk or for that matter just about any Qb in the league to beat the great front 7's without a running game -- its just not done.   As I digested all of Kirk's games, he's right IMO.  It's games where the Fletcher Cox, M. Wilkerson, A. Donald and company types don't have to worry about any running game that makes them hesitate to rush and instead they can just tee off and bring the heat. (Exceptions exists to that but not many)   And although our O line has been mostly good, they tend to get manhandled by good D fronts.  The Giants D front for example destroyed our O line. 

 

Can Aaron Rodgers deal with really good defensive fronts with no help from a running game.  Probably so.  But he doesn't have a lot of company on that front.  Lets hope they can run the ball today.  The 2014 Rams shut out the Redskins (Colt McCoy) at home.  Redskins rushed for 12 yards in that game.  The Redskins beat the 2015 Rams -- and that was the game Jones was on fire.   I don't think that's a coincidence. 

 

If people think we are going to grab name that college QB and they are going to light up the Panthers or Rams or Giants where these fronts don't respect the run at all -- I think they are in for a rude awakening.  This isn't just a Kirk issue.  It's incredibly hard to beat good defenses with just one tool.   You can beat mediocre defenses that way but its very rare to beat a really good defense without keeping them honest and guessing some.  And I am not even referring to having a great running games (mediocre is fine) just avoid pathetic ones like typically happens against these fronts. 

[SkinsFTW]

Bill Polian was on SiriusXM about a year ago saying that when he was GM of the Colts they didn't even look at if an OLman was good, average, great, or a scrub at run blocking they only graded them on pass protection. If they were a good run blocker it was merely an accident. He said it, my eyebrows raised.

 

When he said that I thought back on all those games vs the Patriots where the Greatest QB on Earth looked like Trent Dilfer running that offense.

 

KC looks almost that bad on occasion but he hasn't been held to 3 points after putting up 30+ a game like Manning did vs the Pats. Remember his record breaking 49TD year? Edgerrin James ran for 1500 yards and had 50 receptions. Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, and Brandon Stokely had over 230 catches for 37 TD's.

In their 20-3 playoff loss to the Patriots EJ had 39 yards on 14 carries and Manning was only sacked once, he just couldn't do anything. Only 1 Int.

 

Brady had Dillon and Faulk run for 200 yards.

 

Our offense looks more like that Colts playoff offense every week than it does their regular season offense.

[fordranger76]

Folks can blame the running game all they want but if Cousins had not overthrown Crowder a mile high we don't even have this conversation. Plenty of QB's win without a running game. Well the good ones do. If we need studs at every spot on the offense then how good is Cousins afterall? And he needs 4 games to gel with receivers? Get that garbage out of here. Did Reed, Crowder, and Davis stop playing football? Guy has been in this offense for years now. Time to put up or shut up.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I agree with you all in regards to the lack of running game playing a major factor vs. good defensive teams.  I'm not sure how it escapes a lot of folks here because it should be obvious to anyone that watches other teams and qbs play every weekend.  

 

What bothers me is that there is no fix for this on the current roster.  The o-line and running backs are what they are.  It's really going to be up to Jay to get creative and emphasize the run vs. the dominant fronts we have to face this season. 

 

Nobody wants to hear this, but if the Redskins walk into LA today with a similar game plan to last Sunday offensively, it's not going to end well.  A lot of folks still have their pitchforks in hand and will pin the brunt of the blame on Kirk no matter what.

[SkinsFTW]

7 minutes ago, fordranger76 said:

Folks can blame the running game all they want but if Cousins had not overthrown Crowder a mile high we don't even have this conversation.

 

If he had thrown a TD then Philly scores again later and we likely had to score again anyway therefore Cousins still sucks. Our defense only looked decent because we didn't put up 25+ points. Wentz looked like a turnover machine but our guys couldn't hold onto the ball. The defense has as much blame as Cousins and his moronic pass that he claims wasn't even to Crowder.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

11 minutes ago, fordranger76 said:

 Plenty of QB's win without a running game. Well the good ones do. 

 

 If those who fit your definition of good qbs can be counted on one hand, I agree with you.

 

Nobody is saying the Redskins need to be an elite running team, but they cannot be woefully pathetic and constantly in 3rd and long.  This ain't Madden.

[cakmoney61]

25 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

 If those who fit your definition of good qbs can be counted on one hand, I agree with you.

 

Nobody is saying the Redskins need to be an elite running team, but they cannot be woefully pathetic and constantly in 3rd and long.  This ain't Madden.

 

Actually, if they were facing the Redskins defense every week, constant third and longs would be no problem whatsoever!!!  I kid... 

[Mooka]

1 hour ago, fordranger76 said:

Folks can blame the running game all they want but if Cousins had not overthrown Crowder a mile high we don't even have this conversation. 

 

Game was right there.

 

Thats why you get the big bucks.

 

Can't miss that throw, Crowder had his hand up before hike!

[zCommander]

Robert Henson on the radio just now and saying basically Kirk has been setup for sabotage like they did with RG3. 

 

The reasoning is two 1000 yard WR are gone and Pryor is a one year rental. Doctson is still not on. That leaves you with Reed and Crowder and Reed mostly hurt.

 

Is the season over yet?