Common Kirk....I just don't know....

[pjfootballer]

What if we traded Kirk for Goff straight up. McVay gets his Kirk back and we get a young guy Gruden can work with, who has more potential then Kirk did coming out. Just a thought.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, pjfootballer said:

What if we traded Kirk for Goff straight up. McVay gets his Kirk back and we get a young guy Gruden can work with, who has more potential then Kirk did coming out. Just a thought.

I'd rather roll the dice with a 4th round QB selected by BruceDoug.  That's how little I think of Goff.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Tomel said:

Let's see . . . 

 

With Kirk, we made the playoffs once, just barely, but didn't advance.

 

We missed the playoffs, again barely, but against a team that was already in and had nothing to play for.

 

 

I'd get this if we were talking about Tony Romo or a guy who started in the league for a long time.  But Kirk has started two seasons.  Just two.  He inherited a 4-12 team and took them to the playoffs the next year.  And came one game short of doing it in the year after.  I'm not sure what else people are expecting from Kirk so fast.  But I'd at least give him another season before we have a "with Kirk" narrative as if its a long narrative.  It's a short narrative.  And it's actually a pretty good start.  Lets see what's next.  Still 15 games left in the season.

[Tomel]

I don't disagree with you "Skinsinparadise." However, I do feel that Kirk needs to show  substantial progress this year (in terms of meaningful wins -- not stats). In my view, Kirk has not yet earned the right to be one of the highest paid QB's in the NFL.  I would hate to see us mortgage the future on a middle of the pack QB. Set Kirk's pay scale based on his win / loss success in meaningful games against quality opponents -- I'm ok with that.

[Llevron]

Only problem is that one more season is gonna cost us way more than a 'Lets see what he can do' type of deal should. He is done with those.

[Veryoldschool]

5 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I don't think Kirk counts as Mr. Wonderful, considering he's a 4th round pick that most of the fanbase hated due to being a perceived threat to the prior Mr. Wonderful.  Even after playing well fans didn't want to give him any credit.  We're at week 2 and you're convinced he's a mental midget that only had success due to McVay being in his headset.

 

At this point, Redskins fans are simply conditioned to starting over with damn near everyone: coaches, coordinators, QB's, etc.  Perhaps you're right though, maybe one day the starting over will land us an actual Mr. Wonderful.  One day.

 

Kirk was NEVER Dan's Mr. Wonderful, the other guy was, now Kirk is going to escape and Dan's going to inflict another Mr. Wonderful on the long suffering Skins fans while Kirk signs with a better franchise.

17 minutes ago, Tomel said:

I don't disagree with you "Skinsinparadise." However, I do feel that Kirk needs to show  substantial progress this year (in terms of meaningful wins -- not stats). In my view, Kirk has not yet earned the right to be one of the highest paid QB's in the NFL.  I would hate to see us mortgage the future on a middle of the pack QB. Set Kirk's pay scale based on his win / loss success in meaningful games against quality opponents -- I'm ok with that.

 

Dude....  Cousins doesn't want a long term deal with the Skins, he wants out and he'll opt to sign with another team unless Dan franchise tags him again.

[OVCChairman]

13 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Dude....  Cousins doesn't want a long term deal with the Skins, he wants out and he'll opt to sign with another team unless Dan franchise tags him again.

 

 

A large group of people in this thread are looking past Kirk (myself included) because of the above statement... not because we think he's not good enough to be our QB.   There is a clear disconnect between those of us now labeled 'Pro-Kirk' and 'Anti-Kirk'.  Nobody is arguing that Kirk isn't a capable QB, nobody is arguing that he's not good enough to start, and yes he is better than what we're used to.  Problem is he's not signed beyond this season, and it's hard to envision a situation where that changes after this year, regardless of how the team does.  He has more control at this point, and I've seen nothing to lead me to believe that he will continue to play here.  Both parties are seemingly digging their heels in, and now we're running out of time on this tug-of- war, and the marker is clearly tilted toward Cousin's side of the field, and the market has tilted it. 

[Burgold]

1 minute ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

A large group of people in this thread are looking past Kirk (myself included) because of the above statement... not because we think he's not good enough to be our QB.   There is a clear disconnect between those of us now labeled 'Pro-Kirk' and 'Anti-Kirk'.  Nobody is arguing that Kirk isn't a capable QB, nobody is arguing that he's not good enough to start, and yes he is better than what we're used to.  Problem is he's not signed beyond this season, and it's hard to envision a situation where that changes after this year, regardless of how the team does.  He has more control at this point, and I've seen nothing to lead me to believe that he will continue to play here.  Both parties are seemingly digging their heels in, and now we're running out of time on this tug-of- war, and the marker is clearly tilted toward Cousin's side of the field, and the market has tilted it. 

The craziest thing to me is that Kirk's side never countered. Even if their counter was absolutely crazy and absurd it would make a better statement than absolute silence. It's like both sides pre-meditated this move and decided it wasn't worth either of their times to even try.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Tomel said:

I don't disagree with you "Skinsinparadise." However, I do feel that Kirk needs to show  substantial progress this year (in terms of meaningful wins -- not stats). In my view, Kirk has not yet earned the right to be one of the highest paid QB's in the NFL.  I would hate to see us mortgage the future on a middle of the pack QB. Set Kirk's pay scale based on his win / loss success in meaningful games against quality opponents -- I'm ok with that.

 

My response isn't per se directed at you but just the tone of some of the posts on the thread.  I think we've gotten more spoiled than people recognize when wins and loses are pinned all on Kirk.  Its not about Robert Kelley.  It's not about Pryor.  It's not the defense.  All of that is incidental.   People talking about wins and loses = Kirk.  My point here is people should be careful what they wish for.   When people hang the season completely on Kirk its actually a complement -- he is the horse we live and die with.  We can't win one without him.  Our defense isn't good enough to carry a victory nor is the running game nor is special teams.  It's all on Kirk's shoulders. 

 

We could have Colt for example running the show or some new flier from the draft and the team will go back to 5-11 and we return to the story we are used to for the last 20 years plus.   But at least, we won't blame Colt or whomever for the 5-11 season since our expectations are low for them.   

 

As for Kirk winning big games.  He did it in 2015.  He didn't do it the same way in 2016.  In spite what some seem to think the 2017 season isn't over.  I think we got a game or two left.  Lets see how it plays out.   As for what Kirk gets paid, its a function of the FA market.  It just is what it is.  I doubt Stafford (who has been around longer than Kirk and never won a playoff game) was just made the highest paid player in the NFL because the Lions think he's the best QB in the game. 

[OVCChairman]

2 minutes ago, Burgold said:

The craziest thing to me is that Kirk's side never countered. Even if their counter was absolutely crazy and absurd it would make a better statement than absolute silence. It's like both sides pre-meditated this move and decided it wasn't worth either of their times to even try.

RIGHT... if there was SOME sort of response, you would have a little bit of hope that SOMETHING could get done.. 

[Veryoldschool]

7 hours ago, Burgold said:

The craziest thing to me is that Kirk's side never countered. Even if their counter was absolutely crazy and absurd it would make a better statement than absolute silence. It's like both sides pre-meditated this move and decided it wasn't worth either of their times to even try.

 

Why counter if you know or suspect you want out?  

 

Forget about being a Redskin fan for a bit and try to imagine yourself in his situation, would you have countered or accepted the FT and looked forward to being a free agent and decide where you want to spend the next 10 years starting?  Owners aren't used to players being smarter and more disciplined than them, such is the case with Cousins.

[Skinsinparadise]

29 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Why counter if you know or suspect you want out?  

 

Forget about being a Redskin fan for a bit and try to imagine yourself in his situation, would you have countered or accepted the FT and looked forward to being a free agent and decide where you want to spend the next 10 years starting? 

 

Running by the narrative by the beat reporters (talking to both camps allegedly)

 

The point above is one of the points in the soup.  Why not be a FA, is somehow staying here Shangri La that can't be topped?

 

The other two points were:

Kirk's agent gave the FO an idea of what they were looking for regardless of whether it was formalized or not.   And Kirk isn't sure about the current FO/make up of the team, he wanted to see it play out for one season and had nothing to lose to do so. 

[NoCalMike]

If I want to be employed by a specific company, and I have a number in mind for what it takes to keep me there, I certainly am going to throw it out there to keep negotiations going. Hell, I may even start at a ridiculously inflated number just to be able to negotiate down to the number I actually have in mind.

 

What I don't do is stay silent and do nothing.

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

What I don't do is stay silent and do nothing.

 

This question has been answered in multiple discussions about Kirk.   I am gathering the point is you don't buy that Kirk wants to truly stay. 

[Spearfeather]

2 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Kirk was NEVER Dan's Mr. Wonderful, the other guy was, now Kirk is going to escape and Dan's going to inflict another Mr. Wonderful on the long suffering Skins fans while Kirk signs with a better franchise.

 

Dude....  Cousins doesn't want a long term deal with the Skins, he wants out and he'll opt to sign with another team unless Dan franchise tags him again.

 

Kirk hasn't asked for a trade. Kirk wants to stay with the Redskins. Of course how things play out this year could influence that 

 

[Dark Acre]

Cousins and Brady have the same record this season.  For what that's worth....

[illone]

My care factor is shrinking by the minute with this QB and this team.  Why is Kirk so mechanical its like he needs everything to be perfect around him in order to make plays...  THAT is not real football.  There will always be a defense there that can find his weak spot and exploit it.  Philly certainly did, so you better believe Wade Phillips has the talent to be able to do the same thing.  Rattle him early, get him making quicker decisions and seeing ghosts, and throwing off his back foot even when he doesnt need to, and he will toss it up to the DB like a backyard game of pitch and catch.

 

Until Kirk is able to overcome these buggaboos that keep hurting him and the team it's going to be more of the same.  I cant quite figure out why he isnt improving in those areas, though.  Does anyone else feel like Gruden is not tough enough?

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, illone said:

My care factor is shrinking by the minute with this QB and this team.  Why is Kirk so mechanical its like he needs everything to be perfect around him in order to make plays... 

 

I think we saw a more of a scrambling Kirk, take off when nothing is there, the dude ran for as many yards as Fat Rob. So I don't know if too "mechanical" is the right criticism for Sunday.  I just think he had poor accuracy that day -- pure and simple.  His throws were sailing.  And sadly if Kirk isn't on -- the running game isn't going to save us.   The defense looks improved but not good enough yet to take over a game -- maybe that's coming.   The special teams costs us points versus delivering points.  

 

At the moment this isn't Seattle where they can win even if Wilson has a bad day.   Forgetting Kirk for a second.  I like to see them depend on another unit to win a game once in awhile.  Hate it that everything is about Kirk.  Our QB is going to have some bad games in the soup.  All these guys do.  Lets grind a victory for a change via another unit carrying the day.  It does happen here and there around the league. 

 

 

[illone]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think we saw a more of a scrambling Kirk, take off when nothing is there, the dude ran for as many yards as Fat Rob. So I don't know if too "mechanical" is the right criticism for Sunday. 

 

 

I think that is not necessarily an indictment of Sunday persay, more of an overall feel i get across his entire career here.  It just feels like this is who he is.  Consistently inconsistent. 

 

I see what you are saying and I agree with most of it, but I also think that when the team itself is playing average, the QB is supposed to rise up and grit his way to a victory too.  That's why he is paid the most, and holds the damn ball on every play.  It's up to him to distribute that football by any means necessary to win.  You don't pay guys $100MM who are habitual slow starters, or who can't go win the game on their own and put the team on their shoulders.

 

The Redskins may turn out to be correct to not pay this guy the LTD big money.

[Rex Tomb]

33 minutes ago, illone said:

Rattle him early, get him making quicker decisions and seeing ghosts, and throwing off his back foot even when he doesnt need to, and he will toss it up to the DB like a backyard game of pitch and catch.

That was the book on Eli for many years.  Manning is an average Quarterback.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

26 minutes ago, illone said:

 It's up to him to distribute that football by any means necessary to win.  You don't pay guys $100MM who are habitual slow starters, or who can't go win the game on their own and put the team on their shoulders.

I do understand the frustration of late in Kirk's play going back to the end of last season.  Obviously if these bad games continue and he fails to come up big this season, things change a lot for Kirk and the team.  But it's literally the Thursday prior to week 2. It's sad that a guy with my screen name has a bit more patience in writing the book on Kirk than some of you.  I've seen Kirk play entirely too well the past two seasons to believe he's always going to be the guy that throws the back breaking pick.  Maybe it's in his DNA and it's simply who he is, maybe not.  I promise you that you don't win any prizes for "knowing he's not worth the $".  If come December Kirk is crapping his pants, you can gloat then.

[Skinsinparadise]

47 minutes ago, illone said:

 

 

I think that is not necessarily an indictment of Sunday persay, more of an overall feel i get across his entire career here.  It just feels like this is who he is.  Consistently inconsistent. 

 

I see what you are saying and I agree with most of it, but I also think that when the team itself is playing average, the QB is supposed to rise up and grit his way to a victory too.  That's why he is paid the most, and holds the damn ball on every play.  It's up to him to distribute that football by any means necessary to win.  You don't pay guys $100MM who are habitual slow starters, or who can't go win the game on their own and put the team on their shoulders.

 

The Redskins may turn out to be correct to not pay this guy the LTD big money.

 

I recall discussion about the QBs over the years on the board well.  These days are different from the past.   Now, some people pin losses (this isn't directed at you) fully on Kirk.  Wins and loses all on the QB?  That's one heck of a complement to Kirk.  It's a wild turn for this franchise and I think people are forgetting where we've come from to get here. I know its sacrilege to say this on a let me count the ways Kirk has let us down thread -- but I think Kirk has spoiled people and that's driving the criticism oddly enough.

 

We weren't banking on JC or Brunell or Ramsey to carry us.  It was on Portis and the defense.  Similar narrative going back to prior QBs.  Now we got one of those QBs that gives us a chance in just about every game.  Heck even in the last one, we could have won it in the last drive. 

 

With Kirk its all on him and the passing game.  If he's not on, the team loses.   However, to your point, I disagree that the QB should rise above it all in every game. I don't care how much you pay him.  It's just not how its done.  Not even for Brady.  It's sports.  The best at their game have bad spots.  They just have many more good spots than bad ones.   Kirk isn't going to rise above the team's mediocre units EVERY game.  

 

I am sure some of the dramatists won't acknowledge it.  But the opposite of love isn't hate but indifference.  If people truly thought Kirk was just some hopeless disappointment they wouldn't be going as ape as they are going here.  They'd just shrug it off and say hey that's Kirk.  Just like we shrugged off the special teams fumble for example.  We just don't expect for example that the special teams will do anything special.  It's just part of life as a fan of this team in recent years.  If people felt that way about Kirk too they wouldn't be going ballistic IMO. 

 

As for Kirk not being the type of guy who has put the team on his shoulders.  How did the team have two winning seasons back to back years?  The defense and special teams?  Monster years from Fat Rob and Matt Jones?  It's been the Kirk Cousins show.  If the Redskins was a TV series, he'd be the lead character who brings in almost all the ratings.   You take Kirk out of the plot line than the show is a dud IMO.   People can clamor for it -- to each their own but we've seen the crappy movie over and over again. 

 

You take Kirk and the passing game out of the equation and they probably would have gone 4-12 in the last two years just like what the team was before Kirk became the starter.    The season is young.  To quote 2016 Aaron Rodgers we need to "relax."

[skinzplay]

5 hours ago, pjfootballer said:

What if we traded Kirk for Goff straight up. McVay gets his Kirk back and we get a young guy Gruden can work with, who has more potential then Kirk did coming out. Just a thought.

 
Be sure to throw a flux capacitor in with the deal, because it'd be back to the future for Goff. Under Jay, he'd look like he did in 2016.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, illone said:

 

 

I think that is not necessarily an indictment of Sunday persay, more of an overall feel i get across his entire career here.  It just feels like this is who he is.  Consistently inconsistent. 

 

I see what you are saying and I agree with most of it, but I also think that when the team itself is playing average, the QB is supposed to rise up and grit his way to a victory too.  That's why he is paid the most, and holds the damn ball on every play.  It's up to him to distribute that football by any means necessary to win.  You don't pay guys $100MM who are habitual slow starters, or who can't go win the game on their own and put the team on their shoulders.

 

The Redskins may turn out to be correct to not pay this guy the LTD big money.

I don't necessarily disagree with your last point, however... most of the wins we've had over the past 2 years were because of Kirk, with (IIRC) far fewer games carried by the run game or defense.  I know that factors into your point, but I can't think of many qbs that win consistently without help from another unit... even top guys - Rodgers, Ryan, Brees, etc.  

 

This game was obviously demoralizing. Kirk had a really rough game.  He really needs to (continue to) work on consistently setting his feet, which is discouraging because it's a fundamental factor in terms of accuracy.  His line wasn't a big help there (and, as Gruden pointed out, they could have done a better job getting him into a rhythm).  

I think he's fairly consistent otherwise though - he generally finds the open receiver (every qb misses wide open guys occasionally), he occasionally makes boneheaded choices (I think he's improving there though), he generally gets the ball out quickly, he sells the PA, he's (seemingly) improved in the pocket, etc.   

 

He left a lot of yards/points on the field because his mechanics lead to balls sailing on him, less so because of other issues.  

 

Ifs and buts and all, but if holding isn't called and Pryor catches that pass that hit his hands in the EZ, it's a different ball game... and maybe we're talking about how Kirk starts slow, but at least he had  a decent game and the defense was a big help with the win.  

 

Sucks to have the contract issue looming like a dark cloud on the season, because I think most of us would be excited to see how much of a difference an improved D could help in the win column.  

 

Instead we're focused on the future at qb, Kirk's play/issues, the playcalling, the FO, Callahan and the run game, Pryor, Doctson, oline issues, the 1 year deals, etc. 

 

 

 

[NoCalMike]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I recall discussion about the QBs over the years on the board well.  These days are different from the past.   Now, some people pin losses (this isn't directed at you) fully on Kirk.  Wins and loses all on the QB?  That's one heck of a complement to Kirk.  It's a wild turn for this franchise and I think people are forgetting where we've come from to get here. I know its sacrilege to say this on a let me count the ways Kirk has let us down thread -- but I think Kirk has spoiled people and that's driving the criticism oddly enough.

 

We weren't banking on JC or Brunell or Ramsey to carry us.  It was on Portis and the defense.  Similar narrative going back to prior QBs.  Now we got one of those QBs that gives us a chance in just about every game.  Heck even in the last one, we could have won it in the last drive. 

 

 

None of those QB's mentioned were in line for a contract that was likely going to make them the highest paid in the league.

 

We really need to stop the comparisons to guys like Brady or Rodgers or whoever at that level.  Tired of people taking a microscope to their careers to find any instance of a bad game or interception to "prove they do it too"  We already know this.  The difference is looking for trends & patterns.  It's sifting through stats to find the real DNA of a QB.  Kirk is far from one of the worst, but he is nowhere being one of the best either.  

 

Right now Cousins is ED-209, he does a lot of good things, but if presented with something not pre-loaded into his hard drive pre-snap he seems to struggle.