Common Kirk....I just don't know....

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

7 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

Honest question... What would it take for Kirk to be here next season... from all sides of the story? 

I'm not sure, we're walking into week 2. So much can happen both good and bad in between now and December.  I'd imagine if the season goes well, he'll be back either by tag or by an LTD.  I'd bet on the tag though.  If it goes South, he'll be gone.

[Llevron]

I think a commanding playoff victory where he really puts a complete game together would atleast fill the want on the Skins side of things. I can see him going 13-3 (not really but play along) and throwing 5 TDs in a playoff victory and the FANS will turn on the FO if they let him walk. 

 

And lets be honest there are two things this FO cares about. Money and tricking the fans into coming back for one more run to spend more money. 

 

I dont see it happening. But you would be a fool if you think its impossible. 

[NoCalMike]

30 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

Most of the time people ask this sarcastically or condescendingly, but let's pretend for a second that I'm not actually an asshole because I am genuinely asking this:

 

Can you explain to me this logic?

 

 

What it means is, I am weighing Kirk's value to the team  for the long term against what other pieces they won't be able to re-sign this year, next year, the following year etc etc etc due to the finances being tied up in Kirk's contract.  Is he a QB that elevates those around him enough to where constantly switching our skill position players is ok.  Can a top WR on the team go down with an injury and someone else step into the role yet Cousins makes them look like a 1 week wonder?  Those are just a couple factors.

 

Forget the "highest paid" term, because next year someone else's contract will top his of course. Look at it more like his contract vs. what is left for salary cap purposes I guess?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 Is he a QB that elevates those around him enough to where constantly switching our skill position players is ok.  Can a top WR on the team go down with an injury and someone else step into the role yet Cousins makes them look like a 1 week wonder?  

No, he's not Aaron Rodgers nor Tom Brady.  The end.

 

By your logic, most teams in the NFL should dump their QB and big contract and play the draft lottery until they hit.  Not only that, but hope they hit fast before that draft pick wants to be paid a lot of money like all the guys before him.  But it'll be okay to pay that big money if they are an uncontested Hall of Fame caliber QB.

[Veryoldschool]

I think it will require the FT to keep him and if the tag him he'll play under the tag rather than negotiate with another team so he doesn't back himself into a LTD with the Skins.  I can't imagine the Skins wanting to pay 29M for another year of Cousins when they know he wants out so they will let him go and take the 3rd round pick as compensation for the acquiring club.

[OVCChairman]

32 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I'm not sure, we're walking into week 2. So much can happen both good and bad in between now and December.  I'd imagine if the season goes well, he'll be back either by tag or by an LTD.  I'd bet on the tag though.  If it goes South, he'll be gone.

And you think tagging would be a positive move for the team? 

[NoCalMike]

36 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

No, he's not Aaron Rodgers nor Tom Brady.  The end.

 

By your logic, most teams in the NFL should dump their QB and big contract and play the draft lottery until they hit.  Not only that, but hope they hit fast before that draft pick wants to be paid a lot of money like all the guys before him.  But it'll be okay to pay that big money if they are an uncontested Hall of Fame caliber QB.

 

Well I don't know, but it seems like it's the same handful of teams that are winning championships lately with a few exceptions here and there, so.......sure?

 

And please, don't let my thoughts on the present situation insinuate I don't think the front office bungled the situation previous (regardless of whether they wanted Kirk around or not). 

[skinzplay]

4 hours ago, Riggo'sRangers said:

That would indeed be quite a smell.  

 

Anybody know if AJ Green's nickname used to be Febreze?

[Fat Stupid Loser]

7 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

I think it will require the FT to keep him and if the tag him he'll play under the tag rather than negotiate with another team so he doesn't back himself into a LTD with the Skins.  I can't imagine the Skins wanting to pay 29M for another year of Cousins when they know he wants out so they will let him go and take the 3rd round pick as compensation for the acquiring club.

Then we can draft Matt Jones' replacement and build that team around Fitz.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

And you think tagging would be a positive move for the team? 

I never really wanted to be in this position to begin with, so it's kind of hard for me to say.  I'm thinking the franchise tag is not logical, the transition tag is a little better.  What would be a positive move for the team is for Kirk to play well and for Bruce to suck it up and roll out the red carpet on a more friendly long term deal vs. tags.

[OVCChairman]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I never really wanted to be in this position to begin with, so it's kind of hard for me to say.  I'm thinking the franchise tag is not logical, the transition tag is a little better.  What would be a positive move for the team is for Kirk to play well and for Bruce to suck it up and roll out the red carpet on a more friendly long term deal vs. tags.

agreed.. but is Kirk willing to sign it? 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, OVCChairman said:

agreed.. but is Kirk willing to sign it? 

Kirk would have been willing to sign it earlier this year.  They were ready to play ball and his situation was treated as secondary until the summer.  Clearly Bruce was busy firing the GM and going on an exhaustive search right down the hall to Doug's office, so it's understandable that he didn't have the time to worry about that.

 

I'd imagine that if things go the right direction with this offense and the team puts forth the effort to create a market deal without quick exit ramps...yes. 

[OVCChairman]

19 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Kirk would have been willing to sign it earlier this year.  They were ready to play ball and his situation was treated as secondary until the summer.  Clearly Bruce was busy firing the GM and going on an exhaustive search right down the hall to Doug's office, so it's understandable that he didn't have the time to worry about that.

 

I'd imagine that if things go the right direction with this offense and the team puts forth the effort to create a market deal without quick exit ramps...yes. 

Where did you hear that?  Everything i've seen is that Kirk was never willing to sign an extension and he was content under single year deals. 

[Riggo'sRangers]

1 hour ago, skinzplay said:

 

Anybody know if AJ Green's nickname used to be Febreze?

Hoping Pryor, Crowder, Grant, Reed, JDoc, ANYBODY can turn into our Glade....

[Riggo'sRangers]

1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

Forget the "highest paid" term, because next year someone else's contract will top his of course. Look at it more like his contract vs. what is left for salary cap purposes I guess?

This is really it for me.  How do you want to build your team?  It's a really tough question, and I do not, for a second, pretend to have the definitive answer.  Neither does, well, anyone.  It occurs to me that you almost HAVE to get lucky along the way or draft a top tier QB/player who indeed turns out to be top tier. The Cowboys got lucky with Prescott.  Same with Brady.  Same with Aaron, Same with Wilson.  On and on.  We just really don't seem to have that good fortune, unfortunately.  It is a guessing game based on probability.  It's hard.  Highest paid does not matter to me at all, but not to the detriment of the team as a whole.  That being said, what is more detrimental; no Kirk vs resigning core players & some free agents?  I know it is not an all or nothing proposition.  It will be interesting, and maddening, to watch us evolve. Hail

[OVCChairman]

46 minutes ago, Riggo'sRangers said:

This is really it for me.  How do you want to build your team?  It's a really tough question, and I do not, for a second, pretend to have the definitive answer.  Neither does, well, anyone.  It occurs to me that you almost HAVE to get lucky along the way or draft a top tier QB/player who indeed turns out to be top tier. The Cowboys got lucky with Prescott.  Same with Brady.  Same with Aaron, Same with Wilson.  On and on.  We just really don't seem to have that good fortune, unfortunately.  It is a guessing game based on probability.  It's hard.  Highest paid does not matter to me at all, but not to the detriment of the team as a whole.  That being said, what is more detrimental; no Kirk vs resigning core players & some free agents?  I know it is not an all or nothing proposition.  It will be interesting, and maddening, to watch us evolve. Hail

The other thing to take note of, is all those teams drafted said QBs when they had a starter locked in place.  It was never a situation of "Draft a QB because you have no choice" with any of the 4 you referenced.  In fact, Seattle was the only one that DIDNT have a Pro-Bowl QB on the team when they drafted that QB. 

[cakmoney61]

7 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It's the anti-Kirk folks that I constantly see bringing up the few great ones and making comparisons.  Brady and Rodgers are in their own world and rightfully so, but even they have shat the bed when the pressure was too much.  They are literally the only two QB's left that fit the mold of this "puts the team on their back" mantra that's become so popular.  Perhaps you'd qualify a guy like Drew Brees in this category but I think it's pretty obvious that even he's not good enough to carry a piss poor defense and no running game.  Maybe Big Ben, a guy who was transitioned into the league with an elite defense and running game.  A guy for who all the amazing plays he makes, makes just as many 'doh' type plays.  All the guys I just named have been in relatively stable situations in offenses coordinated by the same folks for the majority of their careers. 

 

Now you've got guys like Andrew Luck who can't get on the field, Russell Wilson who like Ben was also transitioned into the league with an elite defense and running game and even then still has his struggles, Matt Stafford who just got paid is 52-61 as a starter, Matt Ryan whom the fans in Atlanta were damn near ready to write off until they got Kyle S. and their running game together last season.

 

I could go on and on and on about how Brady and Rodgers are on their own planet, and everyone else is trying to figure out how to get there. 

 

 

BatteredFanSyndrome

 

I guess I qualify as being a member of the anti-Cousins group.  Your argument for keeping Cousins is the best I've read so far.  You have given me something to think about.  As it stands right now, however, I haven't changed my mind, because the thought of paying him franchise-level money still disturbs me.  

 

On the other hand, due to your outstanding post, I am more open to the possibility of the Redskins keeping Cousins.

 

 

 

 

[NickyJ]

The arguments using Stafford and Matt Ryan would imply that our solution is to fire Gruden and find someone else that can make the team more successful. Atlanta needed Dan Quinn, Detroit needed Jim..... Caldwell, bleh. Still, coaching changes brought out the best in them, so..........

[alwaysaskin]

I think a lot of the issues the "anti-Kirk" fans have come from three things

#1. Actual performance, honestly a lot of yards means absolutely nothing to me at this point, it's the TD's that matter, Kirk sniffed 30 in 2015 but last year put up 25, and threw three more picks in 2016. Looking through Kirk's game logs I only see 6 or 7 franchise QB type games and I'm primarily talking about TD's. I see a lot of 300/1/1 games, or 250/1/2 games. A big part of being paid like a franchise QB is scoring TD's. 

# 2. Big game scenarios, I think I forgot how horrible that Carolina game was last year, and the Giants game was worse. Occasionally a franchise QB will flop, but with Kirk it's the inverse, his record against winning teams is bad at 2-11. 

#3. The percentage of Salary cap, the pro-pay the man camp, talks about how modern QB's need so many factors in place, and how Kirk would be better with a better defense (honestly agree but you can say that for Dalton, Fitz and a whole host of QB's) a better running game ( again who wouldn't benefit from that?) a better line and better receivers. Once again if Kirk would agree to a team friendly deal, I'd be fine with that, the team could use the money to improve those things. However if Kirk takes up a huge chunk of the cap, then the Defense will suck (and last year we proved that by spending the second least amount of cap space on the Defense) and we'll have problems paying Receivers. 

In the end a franchise QB is a guy who can elevate his team, then next few weeks are going to be Kirk's test. IMO the Eagles have a pedestrian front seven compared to some of the pass rushes we're going to face, if Kirk can't improve his play in the face of these defenses, then it's not worth the money he wants. 

[TouchdownSkin]

I really want Cousins to be a superstar and get paid the big bucks, but he's just too inconsistent, especially at this point, to give me confidence.  I mean, if you can't shake off your "demons" and be ready to shred the Eagles in the season opener on your home field, when will you?  Gruden's play calling doesn't help.  ?☹️

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

19 minutes ago, alwaysaskin said:

 

In the end a franchise QB is a guy who can elevate his team, then next few weeks are going to be Kirk's test. IMO the Eagles have a pedestrian front seven compared to some of the pass rushes we're going to face, if Kirk can't improve his play in the face of these defenses, then it's not worth the money he wants. 

Again, with this franchise QB elevates his team jazz.  I can think of 2 guys total that play lights out no matter who is lined up with them.  Brady and Rodgers.  

 

It seems you have awful high expectations for front 7's as well to consider Philly pedestrian.  If they are pedestrian our O-line is handicapped.

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Again, with this franchise QB elevates his team jazz.  I can think of 2 guys total that play lights out no matter who is lined up with them.  Brady and Rodgers.  

 

It seems you have awful high expectations for front 7's as well to consider Philly pedestrian.  If they are pedestrian our O-line is handicapped.

 

I'd add to that:  you'd think based on some of the posts on the thread that Kirk is the weak link on the team. We got an awesome running game.  Our defense is fantastic if only our QB did his part.  Kirk has been carrying this team for 2 years.   It's been practically ALL about Kirk and the passing game.  

 

I get the wounds run deep from the Carolina and NY Giants game.  And the fact that the opener didn't work out has reignited the post traumatic stress for some.  But geez.    Lets at least see what happens in game 2. 

[Riggo'sRangers]

51 minutes ago, alwaysaskin said:

Occasionally a franchise QB will flop, but with Kirk it's the inverse, his record against winning teams is bad at 2-11.

This is the elephant in the room to me.  Come through against winning teams, in the big games, in the spotlight.  That is how you become defined. Place blame wherever you want, but the QB position is the key, now moreso than ever. IF you want big time money, that degrades the team to a point, then you HAVE to be the QB that can make it happen when it counts. It's just the way it is now. Hail

[carex]

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

The other thing to take note of, is all those teams drafted said QBs when they had a starter locked in place.  It was never a situation of "Draft a QB because you have no choice" with any of the 4 you referenced.  In fact, Seattle was the only one that DIDNT have a Pro-Bowl QB on the team when they drafted that QB. 

 

Romo wasn't a Pro Bowl QB at the time He had been injured and no one was sure how well he's recovered

[Llevron]

If it is unreasonable to expect him to elevate the play of the people around him how is it even remotely reasonable for him to be made the highest paid player in history even if it's only until someone else who doesnt deserve it beats him out? Shouldnt that be what we are going for here?