Common Kirk....I just don't know....

[OlufemiBiz]

[mrfixit28]

21 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

Totally. I mean it's been a whole year. More than enough time to determine a draft to be a complete bust.

So a player retiring entirely from football as our 2nd round pick and a WR who cannot even get on the field as a common theme isnt enough time?

Granted...Not saying these things were predictable, just an all too common pattern for the Redskins.

[Rufus T Firefly]

5 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

Every contract I could find treated "injury guarantees" as guaranteed for injury-only during the first year of the contract. Starting the 2nd year of the contract the injury guarantee converts to fully guaranteed. Now, teams can cut their starting QB after one year and avoid paying the injury guarantee (provided the QB stayed healthy), but these contracts make it damn near impossible to part ways with a QB after year one of the contract. The 1% is if, say, the Skins didn't make the injury guarantee fully guaranteed until the 3rd year of the contract, but since Cousins' 3rd year base salary would become fully guaranteed on something like the 5th day of the new football year (like March 10th or whatever), putting off making the injury guarantee become fully guaranteed until the 3rd year doesn't make much sense...usually the injury guarantee is the player's 3rd year base salary--meaning, their 3rd year base salary becomes fully guaranteed in the contract's 2nd year.

 

 

You didn't look very hard. Tyrod Taylor, Ryan Tannehill, Colin Kaepernick. Thoe were 3 of the first 4 QB contracts I cam across (Andy Dalton has no injury guarantees). None of them fit your model.

 

Regardless, you're just assuming one thing (guaranteed for injury only) means a completely different thing (fully guaranteed at least a year in advance). That's an assumption, and even if it happens "99% of the time", it's still an assumption.

 

Further, you're saying that Bruce Allen, whose characterization of his offer was to pretend he was offering to give Cousins money that he already essentially had in the bank, would later portray money that was "basically guaranteed" as merely "guaranteed for injury". That feels extremely naive.

[PartyPosse]

1 hour ago, mrfixit28 said:

So a player retiring entirely from football as our 2nd round pick and a WR who cannot even get on the field as a common theme isnt enough time?

Granted...Not saying these things were predictable, just an all too common pattern for the Redskins.

It's a pattern but it was there long before Scot was in the building. I would say we haven't had a solid 2nd round pick since 2001 (Smoot).

 

and I don't remember players retiring early so that aspect isn't exactly common. I say wait until next year before deciding on this class. For a while the 2014 class was looking bad and now it looks like the first five picks may all be important contributors.

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

Notices that it says the injury guarantee becomes fully guaranteed...so we can all stop with the "injury only" stuff lol...

 

Also notice it says the "last" of his injury guarantee becomes fully guaranteed in the 3rd year..,which would seem to indicate that some of the injury guarantee became fully guaranteed before the 3rd year...which points back to me saying injury guarantees "start" becoming fully guaranteed in the 2nd year.

 

If you read it closely the "last" just refers to the rest of the guaranteed which is the injury part of it.  They actually give the figure of injury guaranteed $13.5 million in the third year -- that adds up to the 50 million. So it contradicts your point versus backs it.   

 

Don't recall much argument (definitely not from me) that whether the injury guaranteed money kicks in after those 2 seasons.  Maybe yeah, maybe no but not salient to the debate which was had which is exit ramps after season 2.  That was discussed even before the contract deadline because we kept hearing from beat reporters that they were hearing that was a big snag in the negotiation.  The argument was it was in effect a 2 year contract.  That's exactly what Kirk said.  It's what's been said to death on the previous Kirk thread.  Norman's contracts allows them out in season 3.  D. Jax's contract prior allows them out in year three.  

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2016/04/26/heres-the-breakdown-on-josh-normans-75-million-deal-with-the-redskins/?utm_term=.93ad2a60b283

The Redskins will pay up to $37 million during the first two years of the deal. Norman’s base salary in 2018, $13.5 million, is guaranteed for injury only or if he’s still on the roster by the fifth day of the new league year. It will allow Washington to re-evaluate his play during an offseason in which the Coastal Carolina product will turn 30 with a cap hit of $17 million.

[OVCChairman]

5 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

It's a pattern but it was there long before Scot was in the building. I would say we haven't had a solid 2nd round pick since 2001 (Smoot).

 

and I don't remember players retiring early so that aspect isn't exactly common. I say wait until next year before deciding on this class. For a while the 2014 class was looking bad and now it looks like the first five picks may all be important contributors.

Trent Murphy? Preston Smith? David Amerson (starting in Oak).   We have absolutely Whiffed on a quite a few though lol

[TheCoach22]

5 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

It's a pattern but it was there long before Scot was in the building. I would say we haven't had a solid 2nd round pick since 2001 (Smoot).

 

and I don't remember players retiring early so that aspect isn't exactly common. I say wait until next year before deciding on this class. For a while the 2014 class was looking bad and now it looks like the first five picks may all be important contributors.

In fairness to Scot, there are a lot more draft picks to whiff on in the last 2-3 years than in the decade before (http://fftoday.com/nfl/drafttracker.php?o=by_team&TeamID=9018) because we've stopped trading rounds 2-5 for the right to go to the "pick-a-part" junk yard scrapheap of NFL leftovers (Donovan McNabb, Jason Taylor, TJ Duckett)!

 

The issue is truly that you go back and look at those draft lists and we've rarely gotten three starters out of anyone draft class who go on to sign a second contract in DC. Some of those names never even had an impact. When Shanny came in and cleaned house, most of the guys he dropped didn't stick anywhere. That was telling. We are slowly seeing that turn, and, we're seeing some signs of depth. Depth is obviously a wonderful thing, but the key to being a championship caliber team is not just depth... the 5-7 guys you give Tier I monet to MUST pan out.

 

We've spent on locking-up tackles (Moses and Trent), a TE (Reed), and we've paid a CB (Norman) to anchor the D. We hope Jonathan Allen, Josh Doctson and Brandon Schreff's play warrants second contracts. We have decisions coming-up on guys like Breeland, but have lined-up insurance through depth in Fuller and Moreau. (This is where Scot's talent is most obvious and a clear advantage over the BA drafts). We will have decisions to make on Zach Brown, Terrell Pryor and Kirk Cousins (and they have decisions to make on the other end) by signing these guys to 1-year prove-it deals (which by the way was a trend this offseason outside of DC as well).

 

So for me, the question to be answered over the next 15 games is whether this team pays 10-12 million to Pryor, Brown and one offseason free agent... or 26-28 million on one player, Kirk Cousins. After one game... I'd pay Pryor (who even in an off game showed he can make an impact) and Brown (who is our best athlete at LB since Wilber Marshall) and go out and sign another impact player where we are weak. It isn't even close. 

 

Is QB the most important position? Yes. But, this idea that "good enough" is worth breaking the bank is insane. If Will Compton or Mason Foster were QBs instead of LBs, we'd never argue that we should settle for an "acceptable" starter... we'd be demanding an upgrade (Zach Brown). This is how I look at it, although obviously it isn't a perfect analogy because there isn't a QB equivalent to Zach Brown signing late in free agency. But, the point is the team should keep looking at alternatives. And frankly, there will be alternatives to consider... A rental like Brees (38), someone like Chase Daniel (30, but never having been given a shot), a gamble like AJ McCarron or Jimmy Garappolo (who will have suitors despite being unproven), or even the possibility that someone like Teddy Bridgewater coming off injury (IF Bradford tears it up and steals the job in Minny). All of these, imho, would also require spending a 2nd or 3rd on a QB to develop under them. Jay is suppose to be good with QBs, I have no problem trying to line-up depth at this position like we've tried to do at other positions.

 

I know none of those names appeal to those in the Kirk camp... but remember my statement about 15 games to figure this out. I have no doubt that he's going to throw for 4200-5000 yards this season. And guess what, I could care less. I want to see 30+ TDs with less than 18 total turnovers from Cousins. I want to see improvement in the redzone, less throwing off of his back foot, etc. (I.E. PROGRESS). I want to see double-digit wins and playoffs.

 

Again, Jay was hired because he was suppose to be good with QBs... I'm not eager to see him turn a second middle-of the road QB into a 100-million dollar man without a playoff win under either one of their belts (Dalton looks like a poor investment in Cincy). 

 

 

[Veryoldschool]

15 more games of Cousins & Gruden, 15 more opportunities for the Cousins bashers and then it is over.  Dan will bring a new crew and the chaos will continue.  Lots of you guys will buy the jersey of Danny's new Mr. Wonderful, who is going to be a lot like Danny's last Mr. Wonderful.  15 more games to a Snyder reboot.

[carex]

9 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

15 more games of Cousins & Gruden, 15 more opportunities for the Cousins bashers and then it is over.  Dan will bring a new crew and the chaos will continue.  Lots of you guys will buy the jersey of Danny's new Mr. Wonderful, who is going to be a lot like Danny's last Mr. Wonderful.  15 more games to a Snyder reboot.

 

I don't think Gruden gets fired after this year, not when he just signed a two year contract extension.

 

 

9 hours ago, mrfixit28 said:

So a player retiring entirely from football as our 2nd round pick and a WR who cannot even get on the field as a common theme isnt enough time?

Granted...Not saying these things were predictable, just an all too common pattern for the Redskins.

 

I believe they said Doctson had snaps, he just didn't get any catches

[Rattlesnake88]

9 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

15 more games of Cousins & Gruden, 15 more opportunities for the Cousins bashers and then it is over.  Dan will bring a new crew and the chaos will continue.  Lots of you guys will buy the jersey of Danny's new Mr. Wonderful, who is going to be a lot like Danny's last Mr. Wonderful.  15 more games to a Snyder reboot.

Maybe we get lucky and actually draft a legit mr wonderful.

 

our current mr wonderful just cost us our season opener because he can't read a defense without McVay training wheels telling him who to throw to presnap.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I don't think Kirk counts as Mr. Wonderful, considering he's a 4th round pick that most of the fanbase hated due to being a perceived threat to the prior Mr. Wonderful.  Even after playing well fans didn't want to give him any credit.  We're at week 2 and you're convinced he's a mental midget that only had success due to McVay being in his headset.

 

At this point, Redskins fans are simply conditioned to starting over with damn near everyone: coaches, coordinators, QB's, etc.  Perhaps you're right though, maybe one day the starting over will land us an actual Mr. Wonderful.  One day.

[OVCChairman]

26 minutes ago, carex said:

 

I don't think Gruden gets fired after this year, not when he just signed a two year contract extension.

 

 

 

I believe they said Doctson had snaps, he just didn't get any catches

20 snaps... 0 targets. 

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I don't think Kirk counts as Mr. Wonderful, considering he's a 4th round pick that most of the fanbase hated due to being a perceived threat to the prior Mr. Wonderful.  Even after playing well fans didn't want to give him any credit.  We're at week 2 and you're convinced he's a mental midget that only had success due to McVay being in his headset.

 

At this point, Redskins fans are simply conditioned to starting over with damn near everyone: coaches, coordinators, QB's, etc.  Perhaps you're right though, maybe one day the starting over will land us an actual Mr. Wonderful.  One day.

I know I've been vocal about Kirk being gone after this season, but it's not at all because I think he's a bad QB.  My thought process is that HE is going to opt against signing a long term deal, and I'm coming more to grips with it as the time passes.  I'd love to have Kirk here long term, and build a team based on his strengths, I'm just losing confidence in that option becoming reality.  I also feel like the price is too steep for THIS team, and we could use those finances in other ways that could be better for the long term success of the franchise.

[Skinsinparadise]

37 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

At this point, Redskins fans are simply conditioned to starting over with damn near everyone: coaches, coordinators, QB's, etc.  Perhaps you're right though, maybe one day the starting over will land us an actual Mr. Wonderful.  One day.

 

I agree.  Starting over I think would be a good theme to the Snyder years if they did a movie about his tenure.   I say we got a fan divide on A versus B points below.

 

A. Some people are burnt out (me included) on these new beginnings/new hope drill.  And some people (me included) have little hope that the new beginnings will end well considering the large sample size we got on the drill.   Stability helps = success. 

 

B. Some are still jazzed about new beginnings.  Hey wait to the draft.  Imagine if we had this coach, etc.  The new toy could be fun, we can strike gold.  Give it a chance, etc.  

 

I'd hazard a guess that more people are A right now than B.  But I can relate to the B thinking, I used to think that way.  As for Kirk.  My prediction is the season starts off similar to last season.  The first game = bad.  The 2nd game = good & bad.   Then, he takes off.   The whole referendum on Kirk week to week -- where the opposed to giving Kirk a LTC crowd piling on during the bad weeks, that was predictable to me. Newsflash to them.  Yeah this won't be the last bad week that Kirk will have.  Why is that?  It's the NFL.  He's going to have probably 3 clunkers or so in the soup.  

 

But a season is judged by the aggregate result -- its not a game by game basis.   If Kirk has a bad year and or blows up in a critical game that costs them the playoffs -- then a thread like this would make more sense to me.  At the moment, I take a lot of these posts as either overreacting out of frustration and or anti-Kirk LTC contract people (and or Bruce is king crowd) oddly basking in having a good week to their argument.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

20 snaps... 0 targets. 

I know I've been vocal about Kirk being gone after this season, but it's not at all because I think he's a bad QB.  My thought process is that HE is going to opt against signing a long term deal, and I'm coming more to grips with it as the time passes.  I'd love to have Kirk here long term, and build a team based on his strengths, I'm just losing confidence in that option becoming reality.  I also feel like the price is too steep for THIS team, and we could use those finances in other ways that could be better for the long term success of the franchise.

I'm not going to stand on some pedestal after Kirk's performance and shout down anyone that doesn't believe he's worth the $ the situation and market set for him this past offseason.  I get it. 

 

My point is that these feelings and emotions are simply rinse, wash & repeat with this fan base.  I can't really blame the majority of fans because it's simply what's served to us in one way or another by the FO.

[OVCChairman]

7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I'm not going to stand on some pedestal after Kirk's performance and shout down anyone that doesn't believe he's worth the $ the situation and market set for him this past offseason.  I get it. 

 

My point is that these feelings and emotions are simply rinse, wash & repeat with this fan base.  I can't really blame the majority of fans because it's simply what's served to us in one way or another by the FO.

Absolutely.  Perfect example of that is your screen name on here.  We've been conditioned by the team to believe the next thing coming in is better then the last, and that the current situation is dire.  It's an ongoing revolution and it's absolutely EXHAUSTING.  I guess the bigger point I was trying to make is that even OVERSPENDING would not retain Kirk and that there is nothing we can truly do as a franchise that would keep him here.  That his mind is made up that he's leaving.  This is purely speculation on my part, so I'll admit I don't 'Know' any more then anyone else does.  Just a thought. 

[Tomel]

Me: A long-term fan who’s attended Lombardi, Gibbs and Gruden training camps. Seen the good times and the bad and everything in between.

My Thoughts:

 

Strange, but for the first time I was not demoralized by the loss to the Eagles. I’m surprised, but I just didn’t really care. Just too many disappointments since the last Super Bowl run.

 

Sorry, but Cousins seems like a nice guy and he’s reasonably good quarterback, but despite the gaudy statistics the last two years, he has shown he is not in the same league with the likes of Brady, Brees, et. Al. Wins at important times is what counts, not gaudy statistics.

 

My advice to Skins management. Don’t tie up a lot of money over the long term and mortgage our future. We need to have some money for other key positions. If Cousin’s wants a top ten paycheck, let him go. Move on. No more franchise tags. The only thing that might change my mind is a trip at least to the NFC Championship this year – but even that may not change my opinion.

 

One thing I don’t understand. There are some teams that are perennial winners (the Patriots being the most consistent). Can’t our management and coaches figure out what these teams do to be a the top of their game year in and year out. Is having a quarterback like Brady the only reason for their success. Although a great QB is important, I tend to believe that there are also other factors that come into play.
 

[Skinsinparadise]

28 minutes ago, Tomel said:

 

One thing I don’t understand. There are some teams that are perennial winners (the Patriots being the most consistent). Can’t our management and coaches figure out what these teams do to be a the top of their game year in and year out. Is having a quarterback like Brady the only reason for their success. Although a great QB is important, I tend to believe that there are also other factors that come into play.
 

 

In the 80s and 90s at times you could compete in the playoffs without an above average QB.  Not today.  It's why QBs are getting paid so much money.  Even competent backup types are getting 15-16 million a year in the hope of their potential.  The typical team stinks if they have below average QB play regardless of how stacked they are elsewhere.    Perhaps a rare exception would be the Texans who has an unbelievable defense, a weak division (maybe not weak anymore) and pose no threat in the playoffs.   

 

If your barometer is championship game or else.  Good luck finding a recent example of a team doing it with just a guy playing QB.   

[Skins24]

43 minutes ago, Tomel said:

Sorry, but Cousins seems like a nice guy and he’s reasonably good quarterback, but despite the gaudy statistics the last two years, he has shown he is not in the same league with the likes of Brady, Brees, et. Al. Wins at important times is what counts, not gaudy statistics.

 

My advice to Skins management. Don’t tie up a lot of money over the long term and mortgage our future. We need to have some money for other key positions. If Cousin’s wants a top ten paycheck, let him go. Move on. No more franchise tags. The only thing that might change my mind is a trip at least to the NFC Championship this year – but even that may not change my opinion.
 

Tiny bit confused...

 

Winning is most important. And if we went to the NFC Championship that would be three winning seasons in a row.

But winning is not that important and it's possible you would still think we should start over nearly guaranteeing more losses than wins in the near future.

 

That right?

[skinzplay]

48 minutes ago, Tomel said:

Me: A long-term fan who’s attended Lombardi, Gibbs and Gruden training camps. Seen the good times and the bad and everything in between.

My Thoughts:

 

Strange, but for the first time I was not demoralized by the loss to the Eagles. I’m surprised, but I just didn’t really care. Just too many disappointments since the last Super Bowl run.

 

Sorry, but Cousins seems like a nice guy and he’s reasonably good quarterback, but despite the gaudy statistics the last two years, he has shown he is not in the same league with the likes of Brady, Brees, et. Al. Wins at important times is what counts, not gaudy statistics.

 

I feel your pain, Tomel. I used to get angry if we lost. Foul mood doggone near all week. Now? Not so much, especially when the losses tend to come for the same reasons over and over. I've been vaccinated.

[RandyHolt]

I am not sure you need a great QB to get to the super bowl.

 

 

Consistently, maybe. Sober helps. But good and better makes it. Kap made it. Wilson. Cam. Even Denver made it when Peyton appeared a shell of his former self.

[NoCalMike]

26 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

If your barometer is championship game or else.  Good luck finding a recent example of a team doing it with just a guy playing QB.   

 

The 49ers were a questionable PI non-call away from beating the Ravens in the Superbowl with Colin Kaepernick at QB.  Seattle won a title (should have won two) with Russell Wilson, who I'd say is in the Kirk Cousins-tier of QB's.  It can be done, the difference is a Top 5 QB makes your window of chances around a decade, where as having a middle-tier QB with a Championship caliber team gives you a smaller window because you are relying on the rest of the team to be elite.  Then you have QB's like Eli & Flacco who have shown they can get hot at the right time and do enough to get the job done, despite their overall stats being non-elite.

 

There are pathways to getting it done without a Top 5 QB, it is just more difficult, and the one thing you definitely can't do is pay your middle-tier QB like he is a Top 5 QB.

[TheCoach22]

4 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

The 49ers were a questionable PI non-call away from beating the Ravens in the Superbowl with Colin Kaepernick at QB.  Seattle won a title (should have won two) with Russell Wilson, who I'd say is in the Kirk Cousins-tier of QB's.  It can be done, the difference is a Top 5 QB makes your window of chances around a decade, where as having a middle-tier QB with a Championship caliber team gives you a smaller window because you are relying on the rest of the team to be elite.  Then you have QB's like Eli & Flacco who have shown they can get hot at the right time and do enough to get the job done, despite their overall stats being non-elite.

 

There are pathways to getting it done without a Top 5 QB, it is just more difficult, and the one thing you definitely can't do is pay your middle-tier QB like he is a Top 5 QB.

Russell Wilson is a better QB. He extends plays and typically makes good decisions with the football. He's consistent. He is one who can actually blame his line for the offense's recent struggles. He has "it." 

 

This comes from someone who once thought he was a poor man's RGIII. I can admit being wrong. I'd love to be wrong about Kirk. Please, make me wrong about Kirk.

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

There are pathways to getting it done without a Top 5 QB, it is just more difficult, and the one thing you definitely can't do is pay your middle-tier QB like he is a Top 5 QB.

 

I agree.  I didn't say top 5 QB.   I said its very hard to nearly impossible (in today's NFL) to win with just a guy.  I don't see Kirk as just a guy.  I think Kirk is good to very good and closer to the very good range.  I've been consistent on that point and I am not veering off just because he's coming off of a bad game.  You can win a Superbowl with Kirk IMO.  

[NoCalMike]

8 minutes ago, TheCoach22 said:

Russell Wilson is a better QB. He extends plays and typically makes good decisions with the football. He's consistent. He is one who can actually blame his line for the offense's recent struggles. He has "it." 

 

This comes from someone who once thought he was a poor man's RGIII. I can admit being wrong. I'd love to be wrong about Kirk. Please, make me wrong about Kirk.

 

I put Wilson in the same "tier" as Cousins, because I think they grade out about the same, despite having different strengths & weaknesses.  I don't consider Wilson a Top 5.....so I was keeping the context more along the lines of building teams if you don't have that caliber of QB.

[Tomel]

Let's see . . . 

 

With Kirk, we made the playoffs once, just barely, but didn't advance.

 

We missed the playoffs, again barely, but against a team that was already in and had nothing to play for.

 

I'm not saying we should ditch Kirk and start over. However, I am saying the contract presumably offered and also the franchise tag cost are, imho, too rich given the modest success so far. Don't up the ante to keep Kirk. Let him test the market next year. If another team is willing to pay him like one of the top QB's, then sobeit. We need to move on. Again, I'm assuming here that his success is not materially better this year and that we miss the playoffs again or barely limp into the playoffs.