Renegade7 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, mistertim said: I also used to think W was an idiot and ignorant. Then Trump came along and said "hold my beer". I'd say it's more like Trump is AIDS and Bush was Lupus. An bad disease but not in the same camp as AIDS. This is what I'm talking about, though, its like revisionist history. Did we forget one of his major motivations behind going into Iraq with the incredible costs in every way imaginable wasn't because of War on Terror but doing what he felt his daddy didn't? How is that not selfish at the complete detriment of the country and world as a whole? He let Cheney run the White House because didn't want the responsibility of understanding stuff he didn't understand, sound familiar? He nearly sunk us into a depression because he didn't want to understand the toxic loan selling system eating out the heart the economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Bush was a terrible President, but he wasn't actively trying to tear down the fundamental institutions of our democracy and the post-WWII global order for his own personal gain, nor was there any question of his loyalty to the United States and his oath of office. He didn't lie every single day, even for the most pointless of reasons. There wasn't an exponential rise in hate groups under his watch, nor did he ever side with actual Nazis. It's rotten apples and poisonous oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 34 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: This is what I'm talking about, though, its like revisionist history. Did we forget one of his major motivations behind going into Iraq with the incredible costs in every way imaginable wasn't because of War on Terror but doing what he felt his daddy didn't? How is that not selfish at the complete detriment of the country and world as a whole? He let Cheney run the White House because didn't want the responsibility of understanding stuff he didn't understand, sound familiar? He nearly sunk us into a depression because he didn't want to understand the toxic loan selling system eating out the heart the economy. I don't disagree in a general sense that W was awful. I just disagree that W was as vile as Trump is, especially as a human being. Trump is a whole new category that most of us never imagined. Add: That's a good point by @PleaseBlitz...I never questioned whether W was actually loyal to this country or if he may be actively working to undermine it due to plenty of shady and nefarious personal and business dealings in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 14 minutes ago, mistertim said: I don't disagree in a general sense that W was awful. I just disagree that W was as vile as Trump is, especially as a human being. Trump is a whole new category that most of us never imagined. Yea, I'm just saying that Trump being worse doesn't make Bush "better". 14 minutes ago, mistertim said: Add: That's a good point by @PleaseBlitz...I never questioned whether W was actually loyal to this country or if he may be actively working to undermine it due to plenty of shady and nefarious personal and business dealings in the past. That's because he let Cheney do it, it's one of those things that there's no way i believe Bush didn't know what was going on with him and Haliburton so as his boss he might as well have been considered complicit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonniey Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 4 hours ago, mistertim said: I feel like if someone can't look at Trump and truly believe that a rock with a smiley face painted on it would be a better POTUS, then there isn't much hope there. The whole "lesser of two evils" thing has now gotten to the point where it's essentially "do I want a global Ebola pandemic or a common cold? hmmmmmm". Problem is many of us don't see it that way. We see it as a choice between an Ebola pandemic or putting a .44 magnum revolver with 5 blanks and 1 live round against our temple and pulling the trigger. You guys are thinking you have a better than 80% of having a good outcome. (look up what happens when one fires a blank round into your temple - or look up Jon-Erik Hexum). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 21 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: Bush was a terrible President, but he wasn't actively trying to tear down the fundamental institutions of our democracy and the post-WWII global order for his own personal gain, nor was there any question of his loyalty to the United States and his oath of office. He didn't lie every single day, even for the most pointless of reasons. There wasn't an exponential rise in hate groups under his watch, nor did he ever side with actual Nazis. It's rotten apples and poisonous oranges. There's no evidence of him joking about president for life, sure, but things like the Patriot Act, PRISM program, straining our relationship of NATO and UN over the Iraq war, and letting Cheney do what he wanted to do with Haliburton makes me question most of that. By comparison many consider Trump a traitor, but i always felt that color terror chart system was used scare us into re-electing him because it all but disappeared after it was over. His administration worked hand in hand with the disinformation initiative that Fox News was reving up to full power so he could get us to support his invasion of Iraq. Maybe he was naive enough to think he was doing the right thing, but he certainly wasn't, so its a mixed bag for me calling him "loyal" to the country. He was arguably the worst thing that ever happened to us until Trump showed up, history is being incredibly friendly to Bush right now, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, nonniey said: Problem is many of us don't see it that way. We see it as a choice between an Ebola pandemic or putting a .44 magnum revolver with 5 blanks and 1 live round against our temple and pulling the trigger. You guys are thinking you have a better than 80% of having a good outcome. (look up what happens when one fires a blank round into your temple - or look up Jon-Erik Hexum). Except the Obama Presidency in no way was like putting a .44 magnum revolver with five blanks and one live round against the temple. Except the Clinton Presidency in no way was like putting a .44 magnum revolver with five blanks and one live round against the temple. What Donald Trump and Mitch McConnell are doing in many ways is a magnitude worse than the Ebola virus unless you are a corporation, billionaire, or stock owner. Even in those cases, you have to be willing to overlook some rather nasty things in exchange for your pieces of silver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonniey Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 8 minutes ago, Burgold said: Except the Obama Presidency in no way was like putting a .44 magnum revolver with five blanks and one live round against the temple. Except the Clinton Presidency in no way was like putting a .44 magnum revolver with five blanks and one live round against the temple. What Donald Trump and Mitch McConnell are doing in many ways is a magnitude worse than the Ebola virus unless you are a corporation, billionaire, or stock owner. Even in those cases, you have to be willing to overlook some rather nasty things in exchange for your pieces of silver. Is Clinton Running? Is Obama running? Choice will be Trump and of the major contenders only Biden doesn't fall into (yet) the Looney left cliff diving category (and he is beginning to slip). Thus an unpalatable choice which I won't likely participate in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Renegade7 said: There's no evidence of him joking about president for life, sure, but things like the Patriot Act, PRISM program, straining our relationship of NATO and UN over the Iraq war, and letting Cheney do what he wanted to do with Haliburton makes me question most of that. By comparison many consider Trump a traitor, but i always felt that color terror chart system was used scare us into re-electing him because it all but disappeared after it was over. His administration worked hand in hand with the disinformation initiative that Fox News was reving up to full power so he could get us to support his invasion of Iraq. Maybe he was naive enough to think he was doing the right thing, but he certainly wasn't, so its a mixed bag for me calling him "loyal" to the country. He was arguably the worst thing that ever happened to us until Trump showed up, history is being incredibly friendly to Bush right now, imo. I understand what you are saying, and I'm a bit in shock that I'm defending W here. Everything W did was more or less within "the box" of acceptable Presidential behavior. The Iraq war was a disaster, but past wars have been the same thing. Presidents in time of war always use that to their political advantage. Our relationship with NATO, to use your words, was strained. Bush never appeared to try to actively undermine it, hint that the US would not honor its commitments, insult just about all of the other NATO leaders, while all the while cozying up to the threat that NATO was created to stand against. Apples to oranges. Again, I agree W was one of the worst Presidents in history. I think Trump is the worst thing that has happened to our country in 100 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 20 minutes ago, nonniey said: Problem is many of us don't see it that way. This is a big part of the problem, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Just now, nonniey said: Is Clinton Running? Is Obama running? Choice will be Trump and of the major contenders only Biden doesn't fall into the Looney left cliff diving category (and he is beginning to slip). What I was getting at, and we all know this to be true, is that every candidate the Dems have run since my childhood has been branded the most liberal and loony left candidate of all time. It never turns out to be true. Obama was called the most liberal. Clinton was called the most liberal. Kerry was called the most liberal. and on and on and on... No matter who the D's choose will be called the most liberal loony candidate in human history and it will not be the truth. However, what we say about Trump is usually an understatement in terms of his damage to democratic norms, the deficit, education, environmental protection, relationship with our allies, empowering our enemies, etc. etc. etc. Just think about how much GOPers wailed about Obama's signing statements. In less just over 2.5 years, Trump may have doubled Obama's number. Worse, he's openly planning to defy a Supreme Court judgement via the vehicle of an Executive order. Think about the deficit. Think about the fact that first the first time in decades air quality has gotten demonstrably worse. It may be coincidental that this happened right after Trump dismantled clean air protections, but I don't think so. Think about how many Trump cronies and associates are in jail, have plead guilty, etc. There is no loony left among the serious candidates except in propaganda and mythmaking. There is real, physical, actual, immediate and long term damage being perpetrated by the Republicans right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 10 minutes ago, nonniey said: Is Clinton Running? Is Obama running? Choice will be Trump and of the major contenders only Biden doesn't fall into (yet) the Looney left cliff diving category (and he is beginning to slip). Thus an unpalatable choice which I won't likely participate in. How do you determine when someone is part of the "loony left"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, Burgold said: There is no loony left among the serious candidates except in propaganda and mythmaking. There is real, physical, actual, immediate and long term damage being perpetrated by the Republicans right now. You should understand that the people who argue this are mostly the ones who have fallen for the propaganda. Or are trolls. Some, I assume, are good people. But the majority are ****ed in the head. Present company not excluded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 1 minute ago, mistertim said: How do you determine when someone is part of the "loony left"? When they become a threat to win an election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 45 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Yea, I'm just saying that Trump being worse doesn't make Bush "better". I wasn't necessarily saying he made Bush better, just that if I had a choice I'd take Bush over Trump any day of the week. Of course I'd take almost any other POTUS over either of them. But if it was down to those guys, Trump wouldn't even cross my mind. It goes more to how loathsome Trump truly is than to what a misunderstood saint W was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Just now, mistertim said: I wasn't necessarily saying he made Bush better, just that if I had a choice, I'd take Bush over Trump any day of the week. Of course I'd take almost any other POTUS over either of them. But if it was down to those guys, Trump wouldn't even cross my mind. It goes more to how loathsome Trump truly is than to what a misunderstood saint W was. I get that. It's a bit like saying you'd take a leg amputation over a head amputation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 5 hours ago, mistertim said: I feel like if someone can't look at Trump and truly believe that a rock with a smiley face painted on it would be a better POTUS, then there isn't much hope there. A rock with a smiley face is absolutely better. Some of these progressive candidates? especially factoring in trump can only get 4 more years, they can get 8? i dont know. Some of these ideas are dumb and bad (in my opinion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Just now, tshile said: i dont know. Some of these ideas are dumb and bad (in my opinion) Ideas are allowed to be dumb and bad. If we had a functional congress this wouldn’t even be an issue. But we don’t so I get ur point. Kinda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 8 minutes ago, mistertim said: How do you determine when someone is part of the "loony left"? When their answer to everything is to give people **** for “free” when everyone is a victim and personal responsibility has no place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 8 minutes ago, mistertim said: How do you determine when someone is part of the "loony left"? When they don't have the R beside their name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Llevron said: Ideas are allowed to be dumb and bad. If we had a functional congress this wouldn’t even be an issue. But we don’t so I get ur point. Kinda The liberals think they’re going to get to co-opt a majority of America into their progressive ideals because trump is bad. We’ll find out soon enough if they’re right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, tshile said: Some of these progressive candidates? especially factoring in trump can only get 4 more years, they can get 8? i dont know. Some of these ideas are dumb and bad (in my opinion) Change is scary. But small measured steps haven't really worked and have only served to empower the far-right nutjobs which has created an environment where people are routinely getting ****ed over in a host of different ways. So maybe some of it won't work but real change is long overdue and it's worth a shot because the way things have been for the last 40+ years is an outright failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: Change is scary. But small measured steps haven't really worked and have only served to empower the far-right nutjobs which has created an environment where people are routinely getting ****ed over in a host of different ways. So maybe some of it won't work but real change is long overdue and it's worth a shot because the way things have been for the last 40+ years is an outright failure. I don’t agree with any of this. I dont think incremental change is what we’ve really had. And sweeping changes rarely work well. The liberals want to turn everything upside down. I don’t know how well that’s going to work as a campaign platform. I definitely doubt they have the ability and the will to actually execute it well if they do win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, tshile said: when everyone is a victim and personal responsibility has no place I know, right? I am glad the GOP is finally recognizing that white males are the real victims in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, tshile said: I don’t agree with any of this. I dont think incremental change is what we’ve really had. And sweeping changes rarely work well. The liberals want to turn everything upside down. I don’t know how well that’s going to work as a campaign platform. I definitely doubt they have the ability and the will to actually execute it well if they do win. By everything though you mean what? Free college? What else? It appears to me a lot of the platform is to return to pre 2017 ways of doing things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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