Bozo the kKklown Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted July 11, 2019 Author Share Posted July 11, 2019 As Goes Pennsylvania, So Goes the 2020 Election Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 On 7/9/2019 at 11:11 PM, Hersh said: Bless your heart. Thank God you aren’t a Democrat running cause this is the dumbest strategy I’ve seen. Don’t waste time in NC NC actually could be in play. And there's a Senate seat up there, too. I wouldn't ignore it. How much time and energy I'd put into it I'd wait and evaluate after the conventions. But you're right, the 'don't try too hard in Wisconsin and Michigan' line is quite possibly the most preposterously wrongheaded electoral strategy I've ever heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonniey Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 On 7/9/2019 at 1:33 PM, mistertim said: How do you determine when someone is part of the "loony left"? Policies I think are loony left. Decriminalizing illegal entry into the United States. Nationalizing the health industry Reparations Instituting fixes to Global Warming before knowing (or worse without caring) how effective those fixes are (The old cost benefit argument). Isolationism (also part of looney/populist right) Massive tax increases (ie 50% or higher rates) etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 The thread title feels distracting now, honestly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 4 hours ago, nonniey said: Policies I think are loony left. Decriminalizing illegal entry into the United States. Nationalizing the health industry Reparations Instituting fixes to Global Warming before knowing (or worse without caring) how effective those fixes are (The old cost benefit argument). Isolationism (also part of looney/populist right) Massive tax increases (ie 50% or higher rates) etc. Paying bills and protecting the environment are loony left ideas. Okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 17 minutes ago, Hersh said: Paying bills and protecting the environment are loony left ideas. Okay. He pines for the days when conservatives were financing unnecessary wars through budget deficits. Totally sane, high-information voter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Pretty sure that illegal entry to the us hasn't been treated as criminal, pretty much forever. I'm sure there have been SOME cases. Gang members or drug smugglers. But before Trump started looking for excuses to increase the lockup population tenfold, the US would rather send people through immigration court and deportation, over the US criminal system and then pay for prison space. For the vast majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 her campaign has been lifeless from the jump, but she answered this question as well as anybody could have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Should have talked about red lining and the long term effect on wealth accumulation and schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 2 hours ago, StillUnknown said: her campaign has been lifeless from the jump, but she answered this question as well as anybody could have Her answer was as good as I've seen but I think it highlights the issue with not centering the poor in discussions about poverty. We talk about other groups and poverty gets tossed in as an affliction that plagues those group. What percentage of each race is poor? What percentage of single mothers are poor? What percentage of people with criminal records are poor? Some other group, some other issue, is always the center of the discussion. What I essentially never see are those numbers turned around so that the poor are at the center. What percentage of the poor belong to each race? What percentage of the poor are single mothers? Etc etc. Because of this it's not terribly surprising that the poor might feel like they aren't really being acknowledged in these national discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySkinsFan Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCSaints_fan Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 On 7/10/2019 at 2:16 PM, PeterMP said: The more time you spend talking to and about ex-blue color workers the less the voters that are real keys to the Democrats winning (nationally) feel important, part of, and motivated to vote for Democrats. You hurt yourself by trying to be overly inclusive. The Democratic party cannot allow Trump (and his voters) dictate the conversations and debates that will happen in this cycle, and I'll add it is even going to be harder to do so then ever because fake news and social media are going to try to drive the conversations True, they can't allow it to dictate the conversation. But its going to get brought up. The US has added nearly half a million manufacturing jobs since Trump became President. This was more than was created during Obama's entire tenure, which actually lost close to 303k (if you count the recession/first 12 months, if you don't, they added 805k from the low in January 2010). https://www.factcheck.org/2016/12/obamas-record-on-manufacturing-jobs/ He is going to push those numbers hard. The Democrat nominee cannot simply retreat from this issue. The silver lining may be that most of those jobs haven't gone to the mdwest, and manufacturing in Michigan at least, has been increasing for seven straight years. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/13/business/economy/trump-manufacturing-jobs.html https://www.reliableplant.com/Read/31254/michigan-manufacturing-jobs I would also like to see wage data, but can't find a good reference at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 37 minutes ago, DCSaints_fan said: True, they can't allow it to dictate the conversation. But its going to get brought up. The US has added nearly half a million manufacturing jobs since Trump became President. This was more than was created during Obama's entire tenure, which actually lost close to 303k (if you count the recession/first 12 months, if you don't, they added 805k from the low in January 2010). https://www.factcheck.org/2016/12/obamas-record-on-manufacturing-jobs/ He is going to push those numbers hard. The Democrat nominee cannot simply retreat from this issue. The silver lining may be that most of those jobs haven't gone to the mdwest, and manufacturing in Michigan at least, has been increasing for seven straight years. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/13/business/economy/trump-manufacturing-jobs.html https://www.reliableplant.com/Read/31254/michigan-manufacturing-jobs I would also like to see wage data, but can't find a good reference at the moment. Everything I've seen says wages are up, but when adjusted for inflation are essentially flat. There might have been a little bit of an increase, but not much. One of the reasons why I think what I think is, at least for now, if it comes down to an economic argument, the Democrats are going to lose. But for many college educated people, public employee unions, and urban, growth or shrinking of the US manufacture base is irrelevant. And in fact, you can argue that Trump's effort to grow is hurting them. https://thehill.com/policy/finance/trade/440373-trump-tariff-cost-consumers-815000-per-new-job But things like police brutality and discrimination, paying for college, health care costs, gun laws, income inequality, and climate (some of which I guess are economics too), etc. are important to them. Now, I will point out some of those things affect white blue collar workers too (e.g. health care costs). If you can pull in white blue collar workers, while talking about those issues, fine. But I don't suspect you'll do it in large numbers. ) If Democrats get in an argument with Trump over who is better for blue collar workers (that really just want their blue collar jobs back), they aren't going to win those workers back. And in the process, they are going to lose people that should be able to pick up. The Democrats need to build a new coalition. Trump broke the old one. Now Trump did and will continue to bleed college educated people even in high income brackets. Democrats are going to have to pull in those voters, while pulling in even more urban voters. This sort of thing: https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/12/opinions/trumps-trade-deal-to-replace-nafta-leaves-out-working-people-de-blasio/index.html might make sense de Blasio as a move in the primaries because it will help in the MI, OH, PA, etc. primaries. But if that sort of thing is going to be a big focus in the general election, the Democrats will lose. (**EDIT** I should add to the list of things that Democrats should talk about that might help you pull in blue collar workers is the ability of workers to organize i.e. the power of unions.) But if I'm the democratic nominee giving an acceptance speech at the Democratic convention, I am not mentioning manufacturing jobs and what needs to be done to grow them in the US. And any time it is brought up, I'm going to flip the script to something more general. I'd have to check, but I suspect that among blue collar workers or among people in those states, health care costs are the leading cause of bankruptcy. You ask me a question what can we do for those people, I'm going to flip it to start talking about controlling health care costs.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 34 minutes ago, DCSaints_fan said: I would also like to see wage data, but can't find a good reference at the moment. Been thinking the same thing myself. For decades. I'd love to have a gold standard source for, say, the inflation adjusted median income of American workers. I know the IRS publishes the amount of the median tax return (although remember, some tax returns are one person, some are two). But they publish it like three years after the fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 7 minutes ago, Larry said: Been thinking the same thing myself. For decades. I'd love to have a gold standard source for, say, the inflation adjusted median income of American workers. I know the IRS publishes the amount of the median tax return (although remember, some tax returns are one person, some are two). But they publish it like three years after the fact. Do you want income or wages? Because income is influenced by employment. Employed full time workers (essentially wages) is essentially flat: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q Income is up: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N (More people are working) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Yikes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted July 12, 2019 Author Share Posted July 12, 2019 Predicting the Democrats' VP Shortlist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Mayor Pete as a VP candidate is suicide with his inability to get any if the black vote. He will get picked about for how he handled that situation in his town with executive power, are the cameras on now, bro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Buttigieg would be a dumb VP pick. He doesn't really add anything to the ticket. Who would be the pick will largely depend on who's the nominee. There really needs to be a woman AND a person of color on the ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngestson Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 1 6 hours ago, PeterMP said: Now, I will point out some of those things affect white blue-collar workers too (e.g. health care costs). If you can pull in white blue-collar workers, while talking about those issues, fine. But I don't suspect you'll do it in large numbers. ) If Democrats get in an argument with Trump over who is better for blue-collar workers (that really just want their blue-collar jobs back), they aren't going to win those workers back. And in the process, they are going to lose people that should be able to pick up. Sadly this is a problem Dems will have. Specifically, if they feel some moral compunction not to lie. I mean lie hard. A veritable firehose of BS, because that is exactly what Trump is going to be doing. Being the talented grifter he is, with a propaganda machine in place, you can certainly expect tales of the boom manufacturing has enjoyed during his time in office. The jobs he's saved -personally saved- like ran after the moving van headed to Mexico and dragged those jobs back off the truck himself. And tragically, there are large swaths of this country desperate enough to believe him. Especially after FOX starts interviewing people who owe their jobs to President Trump. Most likely actors or odd hold-outs from some JIT manufacturing plant, but if you're desperate enough to believe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCSaints_fan Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 7 hours ago, PeterMP said: Do you want income or wages? Because income is influenced by employment. Employed full time workers (essentially wages) is essentially flat: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q Income is up: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N (More people are working) If I read this right first graph is what the individual worker is making, and the second graph is total "household" income. Which means there are more 2+ earner households. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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