No Excuses Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 12 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Dems only control one part of one branch of government, they are face of the resistance. I don't think anyone looks to Nancy Pelosi as anymore than the House Leader, rather than the leader of some movement. Her biggest failing so far is punting over impeachment, but I am willing to wait until Mueller testifies and see what happens after. But on the matter of policy rhetoric, she is absolutely the last person who should be leading any kind of resistance. She will make re-election or defeating R incumbents very difficult for around the country if she is strongly aligning with her most progressive caucus members. Policy rhetoric is the job of whoever wins the Democratic nomination. No one besides nerds is paying any attention to policy issues like the green new deal at the moment, but presumably more people will tune in close to the election and that point, it is the Dem nominee vs. Trump. Pelosi's job is to make sure that the Dem's maintain their House majority. All I really want right now is for House Dems to make life miserable for Trump through congressional oversight. I think Pelosi isn't doing enough on this end but I'm willing to wait a bit longer to see where it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 @No Excuses I get what your saying, but it's like what is the point of saying you support anything if it has to be cool with who's running the House? Why should progressives keep voting for progressive candidates if people like Pelosi will say "no", believe that directly affects her controlling the house if the future of the base decides to stay home again. I dont agree with her approach in impeachment but understand waiting until after Mueller testifies to see if she finally pulls the trigger. If she doesnt and continues to ignore the green deal, this could turn into a referendum on the dem controlled house by just throwing up their arms and staying home in 2020. Fine, her job is to protect the house, but is that really what's most important here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 24 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/04/us/politics/nancy-pelosi.html That's what I'm saying, that may work in midterm but not a general. Dems only control one part of one branch of government, they are face of the resistance. It's the fundamental problem with your suggested plan, it doesnt match the severity of the situations we are facing like climate change, saying no to green deal doesnt take that seriously when the base absolutely does. I can't read the Times article, and I don't understand the rest of your post. You need to separate the strategies for each election (House vs. Senate vs. POTUS vs state elections), they all require different strategies. There are 435 (meaningful) House elections. Some will be fought entirely in far-right, far-left, or moderate districts. They are all separate from one another. Nancy Pelosi's job is to not let the ones in moderate districts (which are both winnable and losable) get dragged down by the far-left members (who are going to win regardless) making a lot of noise about positions that are not very popular outside of the far-left. The POTUS candidates should absolutely go for big bold solutions like Liz Warren has because (1) they will only be competing in roughly 10 states (if you include Texas), (2) they will be facing a unique opposition with no understanding of policy other than "hurt non-white people and Democrats" and (3) big bold solutions tend to fire up your base, even if they realistically can't pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Fine, her job is to protect the house, but is that really what's most important here? Right now, yes. If there was a Democratic President in office, and Pelosi was punting on major liberal policy issues, she would deserve to be roasted until she's out of her job as Speaker of the House. Until the executive branch is under the control of a maniac, her job is to protect a majority that effectively blocks a destructive agenda and to conduct oversight over the abuse of power and corruption in the administration. I think she has done a fine job of the first, and is not doing enough for the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 2 hours ago, Fresh8686 said: Not true. Liz has been pumping out policy proposals since the debate. She's came out with a plant to boost wages and open up career advancement for women of color, a plan to transition from to clean energy and fight climate change, and she came out with an immigration plan last Thursday. Yeah so I couldn’t name any of those things. I could tell you that Trump was once friends with the kid raper, same with Bill Clinton. I could tell you that Trump told 4 Democrat lawmakers to go back to their own country. I could tell you that Trump is running concentration camps along the southern boarder. I could tell you that Trump can’t spell Al Queada (and maybe neither can I). So yeah, these candidates are pretty much screwed if this keeps up. 3 hours ago, hail2skins said: Could be a strategic decision knowing that any statement they make about anything is going to picked apart in the various media...…..which is kind of opposite of Trump's "there is no such thing as bad publicity" mentality. Obviously, the field will get narrowed down and there will be a clear choice to go against President Trump next year. Thats what I’d call the “Hillary Clinton strategy” and it ****ing sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Springfield said: Yeah so I couldn’t name any of those things. I could tell you that Trump was once friends with the kid raper, same with Bill Clinton. I could tell you that Trump told 4 Democrat lawmakers to go back to their own country. I could tell you that Trump is running concentration camps along the southern boarder. I could tell you that Trump can’t spell Al Queada (and maybe neither can I). So yeah, these candidates are pretty much screwed if this keeps up. It's your fault. You seem to be waiting for some viral moment to get your attention instead of looking up the candidates that impressed you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Just now, BenningRoadSkin said: It's your fault. You seem to be waiting for some viral moment to get your attention instead of looking up the candidates that impressed you. It may be my fault for not knowing Warren’s policy positions. It is NOT my fault that none of the candidates are getting any traction in the media. The only democrats who are getting traction these days aren’t eligible to enter the race even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooka Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 21 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: You need to separate the strategies for each election (House vs. Senate vs. POTUS vs state elections), they all require different strategies. They all require different strategies because the Democratic party sucks at marketing itself and is light years behind the right in branding/messaging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Springfield said: It may be my fault for not knowing Warren’s policy positions. It is NOT my fault that none of the candidates are getting any traction in the media. The only democrats who are getting traction these days aren’t eligible to enter the race even. And like I said before, you seem to want the media to tell you what ti di next, The media is doing its job of just telling us nonsense. You need to do more to learn about candidates and what they stand for. I don't think you want to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh8686 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 16 minutes ago, Springfield said: Yeah so I couldn’t name any of those things. I could tell you that Trump was once friends with the kid raper, same with Bill Clinton. I could tell you that Trump told 4 Democrat lawmakers to go back to their own country. I could tell you that Trump is running concentration camps along the southern boarder. I could tell you that Trump can’t spell Al Queada (and maybe neither can I). So yeah, these candidates are pretty much screwed if this keeps up. Thats what I’d call the “Hillary Clinton strategy” and it ****ing sucks. No offense or anything, but judging by your reaction in this thread since at least the debates, you come across as a low information voter to me. Or a low effort spent on getting information voter? Now, I can understand being that way given how early it is in the election, but it doesn't hold water when also commenting on coverage. I just typed in Liz's name and multiple articles came up from mainstream news agencies in the past couple days and on youtube. I think she's ripping into the Defense Secretary for his Raytheon ties as we speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said: No offense or anything, but judging by your reaction in this thread since at least the debates, you come across as a low information voter to me. I didn't want to flat out say it, but yeah. Springield is a low information voter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 55 minutes ago, No Excuses said: I don't think anyone looks to Nancy Pelosi as anymore than the House Leader, rather than the leader of some movement. Her biggest failing so far is punting over impeachment, but I am willing to wait until Mueller testifies and see what happens after. But on the matter of policy rhetoric, she is absolutely the last person who should be leading any kind of resistance. She will make re-election or defeating R incumbents very difficult for around the country if she is strongly aligning with her most progressive caucus members. Policy rhetoric is the job of whoever wins the Democratic nomination. No one besides nerds is paying any attention to policy issues like the green new deal at the moment, but presumably more people will tune in close to the election and that point, it is the Dem nominee vs. Trump. Pelosi's job is to make sure that the Dem's maintain their House majority. All I really want right now is for House Dems to make life miserable for Trump through congressional oversight. I think Pelosi isn't doing enough on this end but I'm willing to wait a bit longer to see where it goes. all that i personally want dems in the house to do is govern. show that they have not fallen into the looney-bin-circus that has replaced the GOP and that they are the adults in the room and can actually do something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 28 minutes ago, Springfield said: Yeah so I couldn’t name any of those things. I could tell you that Trump was once friends with the kid raper, same with Bill Clinton. I could tell you that Trump told 4 Democrat lawmakers to go back to their own country. I could tell you that Trump is running concentration camps along the southern boarder. I could tell you that Trump can’t spell Al Queada (and maybe neither can I). So yeah, these candidates are pretty much screwed if this keeps up. Thats what I’d call the “Hillary Clinton strategy” and it ****ing sucks. 12 hours ago, Springfield said: This whole group has been absolutely silent since pretty much after the debate. Not a good sign for those who want a democrat in office in 2020. 3 hours ago, hail2skins said: Could be a strategic decision knowing that any statement they make about anything is going to picked apart in the various media...…..which is kind of opposite of Trump's "there is no such thing as bad publicity" mentality. Obviously, the field will get narrowed down and there will be a clear choice to go against President Trump next year. 3 hours ago, Fresh8686 said: Not true. Liz has been pumping out policy proposals since the debate. She's came out with a plant to boost wages and open up career advancement for women of color, a plan to transition from to clean energy and fight climate change, and she came out with an immigration plan last Thursday. It is July. 2019. The Democratic National Convention is one year away. The general election is a year and four months away. An eternity. Deep breaths, followed by slow easy breathing. To use a football analogy, we're still in OTAs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 43 minutes ago, No Excuses said: Right now, yes. If there was a Democratic President in office, and Pelosi was punting on major liberal policy issues, she would deserve to be roasted until she's out of her job as Speaker of the House. Until the executive branch is under the control of a maniac, her job is to protect a majority that effectively blocks a destructive agenda and to conduct oversight over the abuse of power and corruption in the administration. I think she has done a fine job of the first, and is not doing enough for the latter. again...personally... i hope that the WHEN (hopefully not if) the Dems have full control of the house/senate/executive ... they demonstrate that they can GOVERN, first and foremost. do the basic operating **** that IS NOT HAPPENING now. make incremental but meaningful progress on most progressive issues, but yeah..remain wary of swinging too far and scaring TOO many of the non-coastals. ........ i ****ing want my Obama back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 33 minutes ago, Mooka said: They all require different strategies because the Democratic party sucks at marketing itself and is light years behind the right in branding/messaging. The Republicans have an advantage there in that their base is "old white non-urban Christians without a college degree." The Dem base is much much much more diverse, so it's much more difficult to find a coherent message that appeals to everyone. Although, even accounting for that disadvantage, the Dem party still sucks at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 20 minutes ago, Mooka said: They all require different strategies because the Democratic party sucks at marketing itself and is light years behind the right in branding/messaging. @PleaseBlitz and @No Excuses this is what I mean by asking if Pelosi and the DNC are doing this right or not. If the Dems dont do it, the GOP will do it for them and force them on defense. Maybe yall are right that it's more important to get Trump out of office or the policies the progressives support wont matter, but that's based on the idea her plan will work. We arent playing a fair game when one side wants to make sure the other is okay with their plan and the other side could careless what the other thinks. And none of that will matter if the climate changing tipping point is reached, they'll be having that debate in DC underwater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 21 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: I didn't want to flat out say it, but yeah. Springield is a low information voter. That probably puts him in the majority of voters, or at least the majority of eligible voters. Just now, Renegade7 said: @PleaseBlitz and @No Excuses this is what I mean by asking if Pelosi and the DNC are doing this right or not. If the Dems dont do it, the GOP will do it for them and force them on defense. Maybe yall are right that it's more important to get Trump out of office or the policies the progressives support wont matter, but that's based on the idea her plan will work. We arent playing a fair game when one side wants to make sure the other is okay with their plan and the other side could careless what the other thinks. And none of that will matter if the climate changing tipping point is reached, they'll be having that debate in DC underwater. One more time for effect: Pelosi is not the DNC, the DCCC, Senate minority leader, or a presidential candidate, . Pelosi has a specific job and role and she is not the Democratic Party incarnate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: That probably puts him in the majority of voters, or at least the majority of eligible voters. It does, and Dems need to figure out how to use that to their advantage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: That probably puts him in the majority of voters, or at least the majority of eligible voters. I am well aware of that. @Springfield, do you consider yourself a low information voter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, Llevron said: It does, and Dems need to figure out how to use that to their advantage I don't think it's a secret: Make emotional appeals, not intellectual ones. For example, Warren has all of these really complex and well-thought-out policy proposals. But you don't pitch the policy, you pitch how that is going to effect Springfield's kids. You don't explain the nuance of your healthcare policy, you say OVER AND OVER that you want to give voter's kids better healthcare and Trump wants to take it away. You do this for EVERY policy proposal. Wealth tax? Don't talk about who it's going to impact and what % the tax is set at. Talk about what it is going to pay for (e.g., better roads in Springfield's community, or whatever.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: One more time for effect: Pelosi is not the DNC, the DCCC, Senate minority leader, or a presidential candidate, . Pelosi has a specific job and role and she is not the Democratic Party incarnate. I got that the first time, but she is making decisions that affect the party and all its candidates. Her not wanting to impeach is forcing all the presidential candidates to answer if they should. The article I posted was about her inserting herself into that conversation on how to win the election instead of just focusing on the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 28 minutes ago, mcsluggo said: again...personally... i hope that the WHEN (hopefully not if) the Dems have full control of the house/senate/executive ... they demonstrate that they can GOVERN, first and foremost. do the basic operating **** that IS NOT HAPPENING now. make incremental but meaningful progress on most progressive issues, but yeah..remain wary of swinging too far and scaring TOO many of the non-coastals. ........ i ****ing want my Obama back You are asking for the bare minimum of what should be expected of any administration, liberal or conservative. We shouldn't lower the standards of what we expect our elected officials to do because the current guy in charge is a complete idiot when it comes to governance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Renegade7 said: I got that the first time, but she is making decisions that affect the party and all its candidates. Her not wanting to impeach is forcing all the presidential candidates to answer if they should. The article I posted was about her inserting herself into that conversation on how to win the election instead of just focusing on the house. LOL, do you think the Presidential candidates wouldn't have to answer the same question regardless of what the House does? As an aside, and I've said this before, if I were running for President, I would make it my policy to not talk about Trump except for 1 hour each Friday. I would talk about the issues I want to talk about. All of the candidates are constantly being asked about every dumbass and offensive thing Trump does, and he does dumbass and offensive things every single day. I'd opt out of that conversation and have the conversation I want to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: I don't think it's a secret: Make emotional appeals, not intellectual ones. For example, Warren has all of these really complex and well-thought-out policy proposals. But you don't pitch the policy, you pitch how that is going to effect Springfield's kids. You don't explain the nuance of your healthcare policy, you say OVER AND OVER that you want to give voter's kids better healthcare and Trump wants to take it away. Agree for real. Not alot of argument there. But I wonder what you say about the criticism that appealing to people emotionally and not intellectually is what they dont like about democrats.... That old "identity politics" argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, Llevron said: Agree for real. Not alot of argument there. But I wonder what you say about the criticism that appealing to people emotionally and not intellectually is what they dont like about democrats.... That old "identity politics" argument. Republicans play identity politics as much as, if not more than, Democrats. The identity they cater to is "white Christian non-urban" people. And I don't know how anyone that voted for Trump can criticize anyone for appealing to people emotionally and not intellectually. People voted for Trump because he makes them feel good when he attacks their perceived enemies, and he doesn't appeal to anyone intellectually (because he is a moron.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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