NFL.com: Browns waive Manziel (and other Browns related stuff--MET)

[NickyJ]

5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Not sure why, but I was under the impression you had matured past this posting style.  Clearly, I was wrong.

 

Chop it up however you want there, slappy.  They had a better record in both 2018 and 2019 than the Redskins.  Nobody said anything about a winning season or that it was a reason to party. 

2020, when the Browns have 3 more wins than the Redskins in 2 years: "the Browns have still been better than the Redskins have over the past two seasons."

 

2018, when the Redskins had 14 more wins than the Browns in 2 years: *crickets*

 

The legacy of the Browns being more successful is their coffin was buried 3 inches higher than the Redskins'. But at least they died the right way! 🤣

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Just now, Cooleyfan1993 said:

What posting style?? You’re trying to make it sound like the browns are a better team than the redskins or that they’ve accomplished more than the redskins have. Come on. 

 

7-8-1 is HALF a game better than our 7-9.  Woohoo 😂😂😂 we had the same number of wins as they did, so it’s laughable to say they were better than us, or accomplished more than we did, in 2018. 

 

2019, sure, I’ll give you that, they were 3 wins better. 

First of all, I'm not trying to make anything sound like anything.  I'm giving you the facts - the Brown have been a better overall team than the Redskins over the past 2 seasons.  You can 🤣 until your hearts content.  Those are the facts.  Nobody said anything about them being great.  It's about why are Redskins fans obsessed with other teams failure, particularly the Browns, who have failed - but not failed as terribly as the Skins.

Just now, NickyJ said:

2020, when the Browns have 3 more wins than the Redskins in 2 years: "the Browns have still been better than the Redskins have over the past two seasons."

 

2018, when the Redskins had 14 more wins than the Browns in 2 years: *crickets*

 

The legacy of the Browns being more successful is their coffin was buried 3 inches higher than the Redskins'. But at least they died the right way! 🤣

 

Clearly, we are talking about the last 2 seasons.  2018 and 2019.  Nobody was up in here talking about the Browns doing anything at all 'the right way' prior to 2018.  

 

For whatever reason, some of you guys want to take a victory lap because 2 years into a rebuild the Browns have failed to live up to to the hype. 

[Cooleyfan1993]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

particularly the Browns, who have failed - but not failed as terribly as the Skins.

Are you serious?? The browns have failed wayyy worse than us. We’ve at least had 2 playoff seasons the past decade. The browns haven’t. Advantage: redskins. 

[NickyJ]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Clearly, we are talking about the last 2 seasons.  2018 and 2019.  Nobody was up in here talking about the Browns doing anything at all 'the right way' prior to 2018.  

 

For whatever reason, some of you guys want to take a victory lap because 2 years into a rebuild the Browns have failed to live up to to the hype. 

Cleveland's record when the talking up of the Browns started was 1-31. I will stand by my words that pushing a 1-31 record as the unequivocal "right way" was ridiculous.

 

I am happily taking that victory lap, because for 2 years people worshiped the way Cleveland handled the team. Every single hiring, every single trade, every single game lost, it would always be answered with everyone chanting in unison "this is the way". Anything disagreeing with it was heresy.

 

And now the way is dead. The board can finally move on and admit that the Redskins DON'T have to be a carbon copy of the Browns to find success. They just have to do something that isn't stupid for once.

[TradeTheBeal!]

Wow, how hard is it to say “hey guys, I kinda missed it with the whole ‘wish I were a Browns fan right now’ angle.  My bad...carry on”?

 

 

[Riggo-toni]

If the Browns hire McDaniels AND let him run personnel, they will revert to full Brownout mode. McDaniels may be a brilliant offensive mind, but I am not sure if he is HC material, BUT...I am certain that he sucks at personnel. This is the guy who drafted Tebow in the 1st round, and let the Broncos stud WRs go.

 

Dorsey was a dumbass for hiring Kitchens over GW, but they would have been better off keeping him at GM.

 

Then again... it's the Browns.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Riggo-toni

[TSO]

6 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

I would have but the thread was closed before I could reply, I think it wasn't more than an hour later before it was closed, it was the day Bruce was fired and there was chaos so I was trying to take in all the content but I wasn't trying to evade you.  I wasn't going to PM you a response because I think that would have been awkward.

Forgive me if I have trouble buying this, but you had posted in that thread after I had quoted you, so it being closed came well after you saw it. 
 

Furthermore, even if I ignored the above fact and assumed you intended to get to it later but just missed the thread being closed, I know that you know there’s such a thing here as tagging. Why didn’t you tag me if you wanted to continue that conversation (you claimed “you would have”, not me, which means you wanted to)?
 

So, again, forgive me if I find it hard to believe that you honestly thought the only other option was to send a PM. 

 

But, whatever, it’s over. I’m not going to dwell on it anymore, just felt like it was pretty low and was hoping for an acknowledgement at the very least. 
 

6 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

I don't disagree with your overall message, you didn't see me write anything about throwing process out the window but I'm not so sure there isn't more than one path to success when structuring a front office.  It's not an exact recipe, you can have "process" but without good people and a solid product, it won't matter and you pretty much pointed that out by using the owner's incompetence as the reason.

Isn’t this a far cry from what you posted here first with everyone taking this incredibly weird victory lap that requires misconstruing positions? You joined in like “tell me about it” and then misrepresented my position. Not cool. 
 

And I didn’t use the owner’s incompetence as the only reason. I actually only mentioned him regarding what they’re doing now in blowing it all up, which I disagree with. I told you they should stay the course for now, but that it never meant it was guaranteed to work. You can have a sound process and still fail. But pointing to Haslam isn’t unreasonable, it’s actually the likeliest issue when you read about Haslam and what he’s all about (even he himself has admitted it). 
 

But the bigger point is, here, you’re pretty much agreeing with me while, initially, you’re taking my point out of context and claiming I was an apologist for the GM. Can you at least acknowledge the difference? 
 

You’re assuming when some of us mentioned the “the right way” it was one process and that’s it. Even if some did, it’s unfair to lump us all in one category. I’ve delineated over the years, on many occasions, that there are various forms of the “right way”, but the bottom line is you want someone qualified in the GM role and in charge of player personnel. I believe pretty much everyone is in agreement there. 
 

That is indisputable. Even the extremely few teams that have coaches higher in the hierarchy than their GMs still have someone there fulfilling that role at a high level. The Redskins have had Bruce and Vinny. How are we wrong about this in any possible way? Is it not the case that the vast majority of successful franchises have a GM with personnel chops either above the coach or equally reporting along with the coach to the Owner/top exec? Again, how are we wrong about this? Since when are the exceptions supposed to be accepted as norms and why would that move us from that position? 
 

@NickyJ I’ll address your further misconstruing of positions later, a bit busy right now. I’ll just say this for now though. Did you even read any of my points? Honestly, did you take the time to understand them at all? You think it’s acceptable to take a post out of context and ignore the points within it that are directly related to the argument you’re making? That is literally the opposite of healthy discourse. Do you know how it feels when you go out of your way to introduce nuance and qualify your positions sincerely with sound ideas, only to have that totally removed by someone responding to them? 

[TSO]

9 hours ago, NickyJ said:

I left those parts out because they were pointless rather than humorous. Yes, congratulating a team that went 1-15 and 0-16 was pointless. You said they were doing it "the right way". The right way got them Freddie Kitchens at HC after letting Hue Jackson stay a year too long. The right way meant they got a lot of draft picks, but they accomplished nothing with them and are now probably going to do a half-baked rebuild because flushing all their earnings from 4 years of absolute suck down the drain so that they can suck some more would be embarrassing.

Pointless rather than humorous? Excuse me? 
 

So you decide that based on what? Your whims? 
 

Why do you keep bringing up their prior record? The entire point was that they were trying to do it differently from what got them to those records. How are you missing this? Timing and context mean nothing to you? 
 

I can only speak for myself, but you quoted my post, so you’re NOT going to lump me in with anybody and get away with it. What I was saying, as well as many others were in that thread, was that they were trying to change their past failures and were committing to the right process by building a strong FO and prioritizing that. 
 

That has absolutely ZERO to do with their prior record, why are you acting like that’s what I was saying was good!? 
 

We specifically said, and I specifically said in the post you took out of context as well as a post I made expanding on it, that it doesn’t mean it’ll work, but that they can be commended for at least trying. 
 

The same way aspects of the process the Redskins are going through right now are commendable and some aren’t. None of it means that what is commendable is guaranteed to work and what isn’t is guaranteed to

fail. But it’s about recognizing patterns. 
 

Is this really difficult to understand? 
 

“The right way” had nothing to do with Kitchens. Most of us didn’t even give our opinions on that. Either way, I don’t see what exactly about the process there that lead them to hiring Kitchens was wrong... it just ended up not working out. That’s ok. Admittedly, I didn’t study how they arrived to Kitchens over Gregg. I don’t know who they interviewed or what kind of hiring process they had. So I never commented on it and I don’t recall many doing so. 
 

You seem to just lump everyone into one category and pick and choose what you want to take from their posts based entirely on whims. That’s straight up trash discourse, man. 
 

Either way, they won twice as many games us as under Kitchens... what in the world gives us a right to laugh at them as Redskin fans!? So weird. 

If anything is wrong about the process, IMO, it’s how fast they’re abandoning ship. That’s what my concern was from the onset, just how impulsive Haslam is and how he can blow things up at any time. He should give them at least one more year. If it’s all Dorsey, then yes I put it on him. 
 

As for when most of us were commenting about the approach they were taking with the FO and commending them for it, since then they came from a 1-31 record over two years to 14-18-1. I mean, how is that not, at the very least, recognized as significant improvement? Why is that even laughable? 
 

I don’t recall anyone here saying they were immediately going to be a contender and win championships! Don’t you think their overall improvement since then is indicative of them doing something right? Or it’s just all to be laughed at and trashed? 
 

It’s just mind boggling to me. 
 

9 hours ago, NickyJ said:

Actually, I take it back, it is kind of funny. Hue Jackson after 1 win in 2 years was on the hotseat. So what did the team do? It drafted a new QB in the first round to give to a coach that was on the hotseat and fired mid-way through the season. The Redskins followed their blueprint this year, complete with firing their GM lol

 

You can point to the GM and say that firing him is the reason it went wrong, but 2019 was the culmination of his work. He hired his coach to hold and care for his baby, and that coach was Freddie Kitchens. Until there is reason to believe that the owner hijacked the team specifically to hire Freddie against the GM's wishes, I will lay it completely on the doorstep of the GM who was so key to doing it "the right way".

This has absolutely nothing to do with what was being pointed to as the “right way”. Again, what I was saying, which you misquoted, was that their prioritization of the FO and hiring people with solid resumés there was the right process. 
 

Was that false? What does that have to do with what they did afterwards? If they were willing to move on from Hue that fast, I agree, they shouldn’t have kept him. I never stated that was the right way. Why do you continue to assume positions and thrust them onto people? I’ve been nothing but consistent here, it’s extremely frustrating man, stop it. 

I agree, Dorsey hired Kitchens and he’s accountable if he’s saying it failed. That isn’t a good look. But, again, what does that have to do with anything? 
 

The MAIN POINT was that they were prioritizing the FO, hiring qualified people there and placing them in roles the majority of successful franchises have. 
 

Read that again. What is wrong with that? Tell me, what is wrong with that statement? And what does it have to do with what you’re saying here? 
 

To further qualify the point, I said that it doesn’t mean it’ll succeed. But that at least they’re trying.
 

Did I say all GMs succeed? Did anyone? 
 

I didn’t comment on it after that. I didn’t give my opinion on Kitchens or Dorsey. I didn’t really look into their every move. They didn’t live up to the hype, but they also did improve... so

I’m not seeing this joke here or why anyone is taking a victory lap about their failure when the Redskins ended up worse off since then! What alternate reality are we living in here!? 

 

As for blaming the owner... did you read the article I linked to? Could you tell me what you think of Haslam and how much of a lunatic he is? Honestly... do you think the environment and culture he’s created there has been conducive to success? We can commend him when he tries to do things the right way while acknowledging that he can ruin it at any time. That is perfectly reasonable considering what he’s been about his entire tenure. 

 

9 hours ago, NickyJ said:

My point that there is no right way. It's only the right way if it works, and even then, doing what other teams do still doesn't always work. I truly believe that the best that can be given to them is that they didn't do things "the wrong way", doing the exact same thing over again and expecting it to work. I won't congratulate them for that.

There is absolutely a “right way”, and the pattern has been borne out in the NFL for virtually its entire history. The VAST majority of sustainably successful franchises have really good to great Head Scouts (GM, EVP of Player Personnel, etc...) with final say over the roster. This is indisputable. The exceptions to this rule are extremely rare (Seahawks, Patriots), but even then the Seahawks still have someone qualified at that position and is considered the architect of that team by everyone around the league. 
 

With the Seahawks, John Schneider is considered the architect even though Carroll has final say. With the 49ers, for instance, John Lynch has final say over the 90 man roster, draft and FA during the offseason and Kyle has it over the 53 during the season. That’s actually what Ron had said he wanted himself before he was hired, which is why it was disappointing to see that shift during the initial presser. Hopefully that’s how it ends up, either way. 
 

You look at the teams that made the playoffs this season. Outside of the Pats and Texans (and that team is mostly a Rick Smith-built team so it’s unfair to even include them here), every one of them has a strong GM coming from a background in evaluating personnel with final say over the roster. 
 

The Vikings have Rick Spielman. 
 

The 49ers have John Lynch. 
 

The Chiefs have Brett Veach. 
 

The Titans have Jon Robinson. 
 

The Bills have Brandon Beane. 
 

The Seahawks have John Schneider. 
 

The Ravens have Eric DeCosta. 
 

The Saints have Mickey Loomis. 
 

The Eagles have Howie Roseman. 
 

The Packers have Brian Gutekunst. 
 

I mean, is it crazy to recognize this pattern? Really!? 
 

Is it nuts to look at that and want that for the Redskins, even if other models can work? 
 

Is it nuts to commend other teams who didn’t follow that model previously when they decide to do it, while recognizing that doesn’t automatically guarantee their success? 
 

Is that really humorous!? 

Maybe try to recognize nuance and don’t lump everyone into the same straw man you’ve created? Some were advocating for a total tank job, I get it, but you decided to throw my quote in there which had nothing to do with that so I’m not going to assume your sincerity there. That’s a bad look, man. 

[JSSkinz]

1 hour ago, thesubmittedone said:

Forgive me if I have trouble buying this, but you had posted in that thread after I had quoted you, so it being closed came well after you saw it. 
 

Furthermore, even if I ignored the above fact and assumed you intended to get to it later but just missed the thread being closed, I know that you know there’s such a thing here as tagging. Why didn’t you tag me if you wanted to continue that conversation (you claimed “you would have”, not me, which means you wanted to)?
 

So, again, forgive me if I find it hard to believe that you honestly thought the only other option was to send a PM. 

 

But, whatever, it’s over. I’m not going to dwell on it anymore, just felt like it was pretty low and was hoping for an acknowledgement at the very least.

Yes, I saw your post and didn't reply in time before the thread was closed, regardless of the timeline it was the day Bruce was fired and there was a ton of content being put out so instead of pencil whipping the discussion I wanted to reply later.

 

I don't hide from people who reply to my posts and my track record supports that so if you took that as a lack of respect please don't because it wasn't meant to be that way.  Quite frankly I didn't want to get into a back and forth concerning GM's while everything was going down with Bruce, if that's not believable I'm sorry but its the truth.

 

1 hour ago, thesubmittedone said:

Isn’t this a far cry from what you posted here first with everyone taking this incredibly weird victory lap that requires misconstruing positions? You joined in like “tell me about it” and then misrepresented my position. Not cool. 

No, these are the two posts of mine you quoted, what do they have to do with anything you just wrote? You rarely even post anymore so how would I know what your position is and furthermore you hadn't posted on any of the pages where I posted those two quotes so I'm not sure why you are taking them as a personal attack. If I wanted to debate you I would have directly quoted you but you had no post to quote.

 

"GM's are a crapshoot, look at the Browns, they had a boatload of picks, went out and got a perceived stud GM in Dorsey and hired consultants last offseason to help with the draft.  And they still couldn't get it right."

 

"Who knows, Dorsey may end up turning things around and I'm sure he looks great on paper when it comes to his resume but when you hire a GM you're picking talent just like you do when you draft players and from what I've seen over 35 years is that sustained success as a GM is very rare, it happens but rarely."

 

 

1 hour ago, thesubmittedone said:

But the bigger point is, here, you’re pretty much agreeing with me while, initially, you’re taking my point out of context and claiming I was an apologist for the GM. Can you at least acknowledge the difference? 

Are you confusing me with someone else?  I made the two posts which were vanilla statements that finding GM's that could sustain success was a very difficult task and you replied to those quotes.  My posts weren't a response to anything you said.  It seems like you think I have attacked your opinion and went dark on you and I could understand you being upset if that were the case but I think you have me confused with someone else.

 

I've never even debated anyone concerning the Browns or how they have built their team, I've posted one or two sentence opinions but that's it. 

 

If this is bothering you just PM me, I don't want to be scrapping it out with a mod, especially when I don't know what we are arguing about.

Edited January 11, 2020 by JSSkinz

[TSO]

44 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

Yes, I saw your post and didn't reply in time before the thread was closed, regardless of the timeline it was the day Bruce was fired and there was a ton of content being put out so instead of pencil whipping the discussion I wanted to reply later.

 

I don't hide from people who reply to my posts and my track record supports that so if you took that as a lack of respect please don't because it wasn't meant to be that way.  Quite frankly I didn't want to get into a back and forth concerning GM's while everything was going down with Bruce, if that's not believable I'm sorry but its the truth.

 

Hmmm... I don’t feel like dwelling on this anymore like I said, and it’s too off topic at this point, but my problem wasn’t with you not responding, it was coming in here, referring to my post while misrepresenting it, and then not tagging me in the process. 
 

You say you wanted to reply later and you know how the tag function works... but I felt slighted that was the route you chose. 
 

Look, like I said, I’m over it. I appreciate some of the gestures you’re making here, but I’m not crazy for seeing it that way, lol.
 

44 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

No, these are the two posts of mine you quoted, what do they have to do with anything you just wrote? You rarely even post anymore so how would I know what your position is and furthermore you hadn't posted on any of the pages where I posted those two quotes so I'm not sure why you are taking them as a personal attack. If I wanted to debate you I would have directly quoted you but you had no post to quote.

Huh? I’m confused now. I’m talking about this post in this thread, which is what I quoted here and directly responded to:

 

 

Are you saying now that this wasn’t referring to me and that it just happened to come the day after I had responded to you about this topic in the Allen thread? A big coinky dink? 
 

I mean, it seems like you knew what I was talking about right away here... so if that’s what you’re getting at that doesn’t make much sense. 
 

But I’m not sure where you’re going with this, lol. I think everything I said was related to whatever you said and whatever I’ve quoted from you. 🤷🏽‍♂️
 

44 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

Are you confusing me with someone else?  I made the two posts which were vanilla statements that finding GM's that could sustain success was a very difficult task and you replied to those quotes.  My posts weren't a response to anything you said.  It seems like you think I have attacked your opinion and went dark on you and I could understand you being upset if that were the case but I think you have me confused with someone else.

 

I've never even debated anyone concerning the Browns or how they have built their team, I've posted one or two sentence opinions but that's it. 

You said, in the above post I linked to and what I first quoted here in this thread, that:

 

Quote

Funny because I just posted recently about all the hoopla surrounding this team over the last 2 years and with all the resources poured into their FO they still couldnt get it right.

 

I notice some want to blame it on the owner but did the owner let Hue run the team last year, did he hire Kitchens, trade for Beckham or decide to draft Mayfield.

 

I don't understand why some are such apologists for these GM's around the league.

 

I was the one who responded to you in the Allen thread we’re referring to. I was the one who mentioned Haslam being a maniac while attempting to refute your points. So, yes, naturally I took this as directed right at me and I still don’t see a single reason not to. I don’t see why you’re thinking I’m confusing you with another poster. 
 

Hopefully that clears it up. But, yeah, I’m fine with moving on here, too.
 

44 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

If this is bothering you just PM me, I don't want to be scrapping it out with a mod, especially when I don't know what we are arguing about.

I think it’s best to take it to PM, as well, so as to avoid it taking the thread too off topic since it’s now just becoming about us versus the Browns and a philosophical discussion.

 

Anything not relating to the Browns/Philosophical discussion and is about this particular issue between us and the following confusion shouldn’t be discussed here anymore, that’s a Mod directive. You can, otherwise, attack my points about organizational principles and the Browns all you want.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Anyone who actually thought using the Browns to take jabs at the Redskins and some of their fellow fans was a good idea deserves all the **** anyone wants to throw at them, in my opinion. And the condescension that was dripping off some of those posts back then lol...jeebus. It was the BROWNS, people. Redskins fans don't have much room to point fingers and laugh at any other team...but neither do they have much room to point fingers at the Redskins and use the Cleveland stinkin' Browns as their foundation to do so lol.

 

Seriously...who the **** gets so confident and full of bravado in their stance over a team that drafted Brandon Weeden, Trent Richardson, and Johnny Manziel all in the first round? lol...who actually thought their front office deserved the designation as the "most talented front office in the league"? And who actually is surprised that Skins fans--who were talked down to 2 years ago about how the mighty 1-31 Browns were the blueprint to follow if only our team executives had an ounce of intelligence to realize it--would want to revisit those posts and their attitudes and do an "Old Takes Exposed" on them lol...

 

A mod a long time ago (don't remember who) said while call-out threads were a no-no, re-quoting past posts from ES members was a good idea because people need to be held accountable for their stupidity (not an exact quote lol...but you get the gist). Gotta say I agree.

 

And saying the Browns had three more wins over the last two years than the Redskins is like saying the other guy had three more kernels of corn in his **** sandwich than you did lol...As of right now, the Browns have not proven jack **** about their way being the "right way"  or that their owner/front office personnel/consultants/analytics guys are any better than any past owner or front office execs, nonetheless better than all the other team executives and front office personnel in the entire league.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2020 by Califan007

[TSO]

14 hours ago, Califan007 said:

Anyone who actually thought using the Browns to take jabs at the Redskins and some of their fellow fans was a good idea deserves all the **** anyone wants to throw at them, in my opinion. And the condescension that was dripping off some of those posts back then lol...jeebus. It was the BROWNS, people. Redskins fans don't have much room to point fingers and laugh at any other team...but neither do they have much room to point fingers at the Redskins and use the Cleveland stinkin' Browns as their foundation to do so lol.

Or maybe you were/are too sensitive to recognize that there was a much deeper backdrop to the entire discussion and it was about recognizing the general process of team building and organizational structure in the NFL that leads to success more often than not? 
 

Maybe you were/are too sensitive to have recognized the Redskins DID deserve to have jabs taken at them for their approach and, in comparison to what the Browns were attempting at the time, were following a model more often leading to failure? 
 

And for someone who majors in condescension on this board and consistently rubs people the wrong way, I’d honestly step back and reflect on that before claiming it came from anyone else. 
 

I mean, for God’s sake, did we not just fire Bruce? Did we not just hire a coach who is actually quoted as saying things that directly have to do with aspects of the FO structure the Browns were being commended for trying? 
 

What the hell does “it was the Browns, people” have to do with anything? 
 

THAT. WAS. THE. POINT. 
 

There was a difference between what the Browns were previously and what they were, at least, attempting at that point. And for many of us it wasn’t about the tanking, it was about the organizational structure. 

 

If Dan is attempting to do the right thing, they structure the organization properly, and we hire qualified people and place them in the right positions in the FO, is it acceptable for others to say “it’s the Redskins, people”? Is it ok for us to recognize that and commend them while acknowledging that it isn’t guaranteed to work? Is it ok to compare that to others NOT doing it and say that it’s a problem? 
 

How utterly ridiculous would it be if we got laughed at and dismissed just because “it’s the Redskins”? And were it to fail, should we then find it acceptable to point to the solid process as the problem? 
 

Like, imagine a drug addict stuck in a cycle of triggers. He finally goes through a process that helps him avoid said triggers for the longest time he can remember. But something happens and he relapses. Should he just throw that process out the window? That’s it, didn’t work, let’s trash it! 
 

14 hours ago, Califan007 said:

Seriously...who the **** gets so confident and full of bravado in their stance over a team that drafted Brandon Weeden, Trent Richardson, and Johnny Manziel all in the first round? lol...who actually thought their front office deserved the designation as the "most talented front office in the league"? And who actually is surprised that Skins fans--who were talked down to 2 years ago about how the mighty 1-31 Browns were the blueprint to follow if only our team executives had an ounce of intelligence to realize it--would want to revisit those posts and their attitudes and do an "Old Takes Exposed" on them lol...

So confident and full of bravado? I’m not sure who you’re talking about here, but it’d better not be me. 
 

Go back to that post of mine from that thread that was quoted. I said the process was sound with their prioritization of quality FO hires, that it didn’t guarantee anything, and that as long as they stuck with it for 3-4 years it was unlikely to fail badly. I didn’t even say they’d be the greatest or automatic contenders. Yet, my thoughts, which were balanced and measured, were lumped in here and ridiculed?
 

Again, maybe you were just reading into to it too much and not recognizing the underlying message, which was and still is relevant to this day? Maybe you just can’t handle anything that goes against your conflation of Redskins’ fandom with the Owner and whomever he’s had as his top exec? 

The Front Office hires that were being commended at the time had nothing to do with those draft picks, so why is that even brought up? Imagine someone trashing Rivera right now or what’s happening here presently by bringing up how the idiot Redskins traded up for RG3 or paid Haynesworth all that money or something. What!? 

 

I mean, talking about “Old Takes Exposed”... you really want to go down that road? 
 

 I think you can forgive people for saying they assembled the most talented front office in the league when they hired Dorsey who had just come off a very successful stint with the Chiefs, as well as Eliot Wolf and Alonzo Highsmith who were renowned for their work with the Packers, and then even added Scot McCloughan in a consulting role so as to avoid any potential issues were he in an official position. 
 

Those were solid hires and they were placed in good roles fitting their expertise. Didn’t work out, and I’d argue they should stay the course (they are with Wolf and Highsmith, don’t know about Scot), but it doesn’t change the hiring process and structuring having been sound at the time. 
 

So, sure, it’s always dangerous to make hyperbolic statements, but is it really that nuts?  
 

And saying Skins fans “were talked down to”? Again, sensitive much? Zoony’s thread title was alluding to the fact that we won’t be laughing at the Browns for long with how they were going about things. We can nitpick all we want, but they have improved. And within the thread I, along with others, expanded upon it. That, knowing Haslam’s past, he could destroy it at any time. 
 

It really isn’t a black and white, victory lap type deal is it? For any perceived “side”. It was a nuanced discussion and should’ve remained as such. Which is what annoys me most about this pettiness right now. 
 

If that’s the case, how is there any logic to it when we lost double the amount of games they did this season? By that logic, why wouldn’t a Browns’ fan be perfectly in the right to be laughing at us? 
 

14 hours ago, Califan007 said:

A mod a long time ago (don't remember who) said while call-out threads were a no-no, re-quoting past posts from ES members was a good idea because people need to be held accountable for their stupidity (not an exact quote lol...but you get the gist). Gotta say I agree.

You can call out whatever poster you want regarding whatever, relevant, topic of discussion they’ve participated in and the content they’ve produced about it. That’s not what the call out rule is for, which has been a common misunderstanding here:

 

Quote

17. Do not create “call out” threads.
These are threads whose intention is clearly to "call out" another particular member on a personal matter beyond their posted content on ES. These forums are not to be used as a medium for personal attacks or private vendettas. To the extent personal exchanges/conversations are necessary---and desired by BOTH parties---those members are encouraged to pursue them via Private Messaging. Feel free to question members as to past comments you’d like them to explain in the spirit of good debate.

Do not use private messaging to badger or intimidate other members. Substantiated instances of such behavior will result in the immediate loss of private messaging privileges for the instigator, and may result in permanent banning from ExtremeSkins.

The key is to not go beyond that. So there was nothing against that rule done in here. 
 

Now, rule 12? That’s another story. And it’s been happening too much, lately. In this thread and others. Especially what I bolded:
 

Quote

12. No trolling. Beware of making baiting posts.
Do not post comments that are fundamentally inflammatory, or of little substantive content, or of some broadly insulting nature that serve primarily to incite your fellow members. ExtremeSkins has always prided itself on its zero tolerance policy for the common internet troublemaker. Trolls come in many forms and will be identified and censured at the discretion of the ES Staff. We are seeking a better level of conversation than just habitual drive-bys, being simplistically insulting, or gratuitously flaming various well-established points of view regardless of how strongly they may differ from yours.

 

15 hours ago, Califan007 said:

And saying the Browns had three more wins over the last two years than the Redskins is like saying the other guy had three more kernels of corn in his **** sandwich than you did lol...As of right now, the Browns have not proven jack **** about their way being the "right way"  or that their owner/front office personnel/consultants/analytics guys are any better than any past owner or front office execs, nonetheless better than all the other team executives and front office personnel in the entire league.

Process over results.
 

Surely someone who fashions himself as one who is supremely logical can understand this concept? 

 

Nothing is ever guaranteed, but there is a certain method the vast majority of successful franchises employ, one in which Dan never has. Are you arguing against the pedigrees of the aforementioned names? Would you be trashing them if Dan hired them? 
 

I know I wouldn’t. 
 

The Browns attempted it that way, improved considerably over their previous 1-31 clown show, but didn’t live up to hype. They’re still structuring it the right way organizationally, but I think the owner was too impatient (which is his established pattern of behavior), unfortunately for Browns’ fans. 
 

The purpose of mentioning the wins wasn’t about the Browns’ success, it was about pointing out the underlying issues with Redskin fans laughing at them or taking victory laps over their failures.
 

By your logic, we both have sucked and we should both shut up then, which is clearly something you chose not to do initiating this silliness. No side “won” anything. But if we’re solely looking at results, the Browns actually improved their situation while we regressed in ours since then. How that translates to calling anyone out for their positions is beyond me, but then again we’re pretty damn damaged as Skins’ fans.  

[profusion]

ESPN reports Browns are hiring Vikings OC Kevin Stefanski.

 

You just keep doing you, Jimmy Haslam.

Edited January 12, 2020 by profusion

[beachboy757]

37 minutes ago, profusion said:

ESPN reports Browns are hiring Vikings OC Kevin Stepanski.

 

You just keep doing you, Jimmy Haslam.

Remember a few years ago when Redskins fans kept praising the Browns "new and innovative" front office structure and were saying how the Browns would be a playoff team and light years ahead of the Skins by this time? Now here they are STILL hiring coaches and a GM again. lol 😂

Edited January 12, 2020 by beachboy757

[skinzplay]

Dorsey screwed up that whole thing last year by elevating Kitchens instead of Gregg. That would have been the best option as a transition away from H. Jackson. They probably would've made the playoffs this year, too; or at least it would have been more likely than with that absurdly weak coaching staff put together for Kitchens. Hope they're getting it right this time. Eager to see what the staff looks like. And I'm glad they passed on McDaniels, and the G-Men and Panthers didn't even bother to wait and interview him. He ain't all that.

 

Any predictions on Stefanski's DC and QB Coach?

[SkinsFTW]

On 1/12/2020 at 12:55 PM, profusion said:

ESPN reports Browns are hiring Vikings OC Kevin Stefanski.

 

You just keep doing you, Jimmy Haslam.

 

Not only that but what I'm hearing is that the requirements for the job were for the head coach to have weekly meetings after games on Monday with Haslam to go over the game, then on Friday to go over with him on the gameplan for the next game.

 

Dan Snyder 2.0 there in Cleveland.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Yea and on the radio, I heard after gameplan sent up on Friday, the analytics department will review and approve or change it.

[SkinsFTW]

3 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Yea and on the radio, I heard after gameplan sent up on Friday, the analytics department will review and approve or change it.

 

Yeah and the analytics dude will be on the headset with the coach telling him what to do next lol. Sounds like they think it's the same as Baseball.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I really wanted to like Odell Beckham.  I love dynamic, game breaking wide receivers.

 

But he's just so damn dumb.  

 

https://www.si.com/college/lsu/football/beckham-charged-with-simple-battery

[Cooleyfan1993]

4 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

I really wanted to like Odell Beckham.  I love dynamic, game breaking wide receivers.

 

But he's just so damn dumb.  

 

https://www.si.com/college/lsu/football/beckham-charged-with-simple-battery

He gave a slap on the butt to a security guard inside the LSU locker room while celebrating the LSU victory. Plus in the video I saw, it looks like officer ***hole was interrogating the LSU players after the win. He apparently doesn’t know how to have fun 😂😂😂

[Spaceman Spiff]

Just now, Cooleyfan1993 said:

He gave a slap on the butt to a security guard inside the LSU locker room while celebrating the LSU victory. Plus in the video I saw, it looks like officer ***hole was interrogating the LSU players after the win. He apparently doesn’t know how to have fun 😂😂😂

 

Well, yeah...agreed that the the security guard looked like he was being a wet blanket, we don't know what he was there for, though.  

 

But OBJ's decision making continues to be dumb.  

[Malapropismic Depository]

1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Well, yeah...agreed that the the security guard looked like he was being a wet blanket, we don't know what he was there for, though.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Plus in the video I saw, it looks like officer ***hole was interrogating the LSU players after the win. He apparently doesn’t know how to have fun 😂😂😂

 

I think he was there because they weren't allowed to smoke cigars in there, technically

[Destino]

2 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

I really wanted to like Odell Beckham.  I love dynamic, game breaking wide receivers.

 

But he's just so damn dumb.  

 

https://www.si.com/college/lsu/football/beckham-charged-with-simple-battery

Of all the stupid things to get in trouble for... and it’s on camera too. This is the legal version of hitting yourself in the face with the kickers net.

[Llevron]

I feel embarrassed for this dude and I dont even like him. Someone explain that to me. I just wish he would go away. 

[Mr. Sinister]

On 1/13/2020 at 7:14 PM, SkinsFTW said:

 

Not only that but what I'm hearing is that the requirements for the job were for the head coach to have weekly meetings after games on Monday with Haslam to go over the game, then on Friday to go over with him on the gameplan for the next game.

 

Dan Snyder 2.0 there in Cleveland.

 

On 1/14/2020 at 12:28 PM, TheGreatBuzz said:

Yea and on the radio, I heard after gameplan sent up on Friday, the analytics department will review and approve or change it.

 

On 1/14/2020 at 3:37 PM, SkinsFTW said:

 

Yeah and the analytics dude will be on the headset with the coach telling him what to do next lol. Sounds like they think it's the same as Baseball.

 

Wtffffff

 

Craziest thing I've ever heard. That team is done.