U C S D SkinsFan Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Some fans are delusional thinking we get a 2nd rounder. Don't even waste your time with elaborate write ups. If we got a 3rd rounder, we should be doing cartwheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Some fans are delusional thinking we get a 2nd rounder. Don't even waste your time with elaborate write ups. If we got a 3rd rounder, we should be doing cartwheels. I don't understand this. At all. John Clayton as recently as last week came on and said we could get a 2nd. GMs polled back in December stated he was worthy of a 2nd. What makes you think there's no chance we get a 2nd ... when there's a weak QB class and at least 5 teams desperate for a starter? Am I leaning on the optimistic side? Absolutely. But I take offense to you saying it's delusional. And to say we would be "lucky" and "doing cartwheels" if we got offered a 3rd just goes to show how delusional you are ... and you clearly haven't paid an ounce of attention. The Browns essentially already came out and set the floor at a 3rd rounder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theTruthTeller Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I don't understand this. At all. John Clayton as recently as last week came on and said we could get a 2nd. GMs polled back in December stated he was worthy of a 2nd. What makes you think there's no chance we get a 2nd ... when there's a weak QB class and at least 5 teams desperate for a starter? Am I leaning on the optimistic side? Absolutely. But I take offense to you saying it's delusional. And to say we would be "lucky" and "doing cartwheels" if we got offered a 3rd just goes to show how delusional you are ... and you clearly haven't paid an ounce of attention. The Browns essentially already came out and set the floor at a 3rd rounder. As for your earlier post, I think it is very well thought out, but its pretty early to go through a progression of trade downs. Actually, its probably impossible to predict two levels of trade downs even on draft day. Most teams trade up only if they see a player they want as they get close to their pick. But, the overall thought of your post is good - get as many second day picks as possible. As for whatever a pundit or unknown GM says, I wouldn't take much stock in it. It was pretty clear that the GMs Clayton spoke with were talking hypothetical value rather than what they themselves would trade for KC. I doubt anyone did any serious thinking about their answer. You never know - we talk a lot about teams that need a starting quarterback right now, but there are some playoff teams with aging QBs that may feel they need a better backup and would be willing to part with a late second rounder. That's a big maybe though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Cousins should be open to being traded. The team should be open to trading cousins. However, if you trade cousins, you open a hole at backup QB. So, then you've got to sign somebody or draft somebody. Signing a backup QB is going to cost more cap room than keeping Cousins. So, you have to weigh the options: A 2nd (at best) pick + less cap room overall and need at backup QB or Cousins 1 more year as a backup + more cap room and no headache to find another backup. Personally, I don't care. I think both are fine options. If they get a 1-15 pick in the second round, I think you do it no question. If it's late 2nd, you think about it. If it's anything less than a 2nd, you don't answer the phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor703 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Some fans are delusional thinking we get a 2nd rounder. Don't even waste your time with elaborate write ups. If we got a 3rd rounder, we should be doing cartwheels. There's absolutely nothing delusional about it. No matter how many times people claim it won't happen again, it happens. Last year it was Alex Smith who fans thought the niners wouldn't get anything for and they ended up with two second round picks. Smith who is the definition of average, has basically no growth left, he is what he is. Cousins has the abilty to grow as a passer and still has a bit of mystique around him can certainly garner a second round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epochalypse Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Latest ESPN report: After watching the situation unfold in Cleveland, Kirk Cousins is no longer open to being traded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Cousins was the guest speaker at a breakfast I attended this weekend. He indicated that the most likely scenario was that he would be in Washington for another year. Heck of a speaker. Very impressive kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 There's absolutely nothing delusional about it. No matter how many times people claim it won't happen again, it happens. Last year it was Alex Smith who fans thought the niners wouldn't get anything for and they ended up with two second round picks. Smith who is the definition of average, has basically no growth left, he is what he is. Cousins has the abilty to grow as a passer and still has a bit of mystique around him can certainly garner a second round pick. I wouldn't go so far as to call it "delusional" but IMO it is definitely a stretch. Smith certainly isn't a world beater who can carry a team but he is a good QB and had a pretty decent couple of years statistically when he was traded. Cousins has had very limited starting experience and when he has started the results have not been that great. Why would a team jump to give up a high 2nd round pick for a guy who has more INTs than TDs to go along with a poor completion percentage? Imagine if the Skins traded a high 2nd round pick for a QB with those numbers and that limited amount of playing time. I think a fair amount of people here would go nuts. I would certainly be very dubious about the decision. I really have a hard time seeing a 2nd rounder happening. Maybe a high 3rd. Could it happen? Of course. Will it? I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskin Diehard Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Kirk Cousins says he's open to a trade, why is it when a so called caucasian athlete says they are open to being traded... they get support from the media and fans, but when a black athlete says he is open to being traded.... the response from the media and fans are hate-filled and negative... smh most kirk cousin fans are secretly racist/rg3 haters, or just andrew luck fans... they dont care if kirk cousins is good or not, they just want rg3 to be a bust... they have been attacking griff since he got into the league...., just like they did Cam until this year.... fact is black qb's have to PROVE to fans, and the media that they belong, and white qb's dont... i mean look at bradford, matty ice, and ryan tannahill.... all 3 were dissappointing this year... and not one amount of critism... compare that to a guy like geno smith who went 8-8 in his rookie year( which is normal)... and you have to start asking questions Hope RG3 can silence his critics next season.... i'll be rooting for him to win comeback player of the year... and hopefully another average year for andrew luck Strong post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I don't understand this. At all. John Clayton as recently as last week came on and said we could get a 2nd. GMs polled back in December stated he was worthy of a 2nd. What makes you think there's no chance we get a 2nd ... when there's a weak QB class and at least 5 teams desperate for a starter? If John Clayton gets a job as an NFL GM we should be in good shape then .... Seriously no one can say there is NO chance someone offers us a second round pick for Cousins but my opinion is the odds are long on that happening. He has had 4 starts - two have been pretty good, one so so and one poor. He has a good enough arm, some mobility and seems to have a good work ethic and an aggressive attitude - his physical skills are not going to blow a GM away though. He also turns the ball over. I don't think he has shown enough in his NFL opportunities to drastically alter the grade on him from when he was drafted. Good backup with potential to develop into a starter. 3rd or 4th round grade ...... My view is that if someone offered me a 3rd for him I'd be tempted but in the end I would take the value of having a good young and cheap backup QB as being more valuable and pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskin Diehard Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I aint mad at Kirk. He's making a calculated business decision. Obviously, his agent has informed him his best chance to get a lucrative extension and get on with establishing himself in the NFL requires him to get the heck out of DC as soon as possible. Kirk knows he's not better than RG3 (he's admitted that on numerous occasions; something an Alpha male would never do if they sincerely believed otherwise) even though there are a lot of Redskins fans who in their delusional minds really believe he is better than Robert which is borderline ludicrous to me. Joe Montana criticized Colin Kaepernick recently, saying running QB's will never win in the NFL but that was right before Russell Wilson blew that theory right out of the water. I guess Joe forgot about his understudy Steve Young (the first running QB to win the big game). Pocket passers i.e. QB's who aren't athletic are a dying breed. As more college head coaches put winning in front of tradition, there will be more RG3's, Russ Wilson's, Andrew Luck's, Cam Newton's and Colin Kaepernick's coming out of the woodwork. Traditionalists hate the idea of the NFL evolving into an almost Arena league or CFL like spectacle but you can't stop progress. One of the smartest things Shanny did was drafting Kirk Cousins with a 4th round pick that could have landed us a bust at a different position. Unfortunately, one of the dumbest things Shanny did before his exodus was start Kirk at the end of last season. Sometimes so called brilliant people can be too cute for their own good. Putting Cousins on full display exposed the fact that he's somewhat mediocre against upper echelon defenses at this point in his career but to his credit he also looked very against average defenses because he's very accurate. The problem with Shanny's little showcase was Kirk looked good when he was throwing short dink and dunk passes. That little showcase put Kirk on full display for GM's to really pick him apart. Had he made RG3 and the rest of us suffer through playing the season out, Kirk might still be worth a 1st round pick. Unfortunately that ship has sailed. My argument for why there's no comparison between Kirk and Bob Griffin is when Robert is healthy and confident he throws one of the most accurate long balls in the NFL and he showed that as a rookie. (How soon some fans forget) Like P.T Barnum said... "There's a sucker born every minute." Kirk will probably get traded before the draft in my opinion because the NFL is a QB driven league. Kirk may not be as good as RG3 (when Robert is healthy) in terms of all around talent but he's still better than half the QB's in the league, after only two years of professional experience at that. Any GM who thinks Blake Bortles is better than Kirk Cousins needs to be fired immediately. One of these so called expert talent evaluators will come to their senses and realize... why put the next Brady Quinn, Christian Ponder, Brandon Weeden in over their head when you can go get a guy who's been a classy, smart professional learning under a coach who some experts call one of the most brilliant offensive minds in the NFL. By the way... I'm still trying to understand how if Kyle is as brilliant as many "experts" believe he is... why did he have to settle for the Browns OC job? Anyway... I digress. Back to Kirk... I think we can still get a 2nd and a 5th or 6th round pick or a decent player and a 2nd if we're willing to grant Kirk's request. Unfortunately many of you have already pointed out the fact that if we let him go who's the next man up to be Robert's backup. That's the million dollar question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubble Screen Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Strong post!Going to miss juliansever00's brilliant insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket442Olds Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Was listening to the local Buffalo Bills radio here yesterday morning and all 3 of the folks on there laughed at giving a 2nd for Cousins, and rattled off his large drop in statistics from Rookie to the 2013 Season. I agree with them, that most teams aren't stupid enough to give up that much for him. Each of them also agreed they'd not give a 3rd Round Pick for him either. One said he didn't want him at all, the other two said for a 4th or 5th they'd be happy with him coming to Buffalo. Not hugely important, but just a bit of info from what other teams fans/pundits are thinking about him. I'm guessing it is similar around the league. He got hyped up, based on a couple throws, and has since been quite mediocre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 If John Clayton gets a job as an NFL GM we should be in good shape then .... Seriously no one can say there is NO chance someone offers us a second round pick for Cousins but my opinion is the odds are long on that happening. He has had 4 starts - two have been pretty good, one so so and one poor. He has a good enough arm, some mobility and seems to have a good work ethic and an aggressive attitude - his physical skills are not going to blow a GM away though. He also turns the ball over. I don't think he has shown enough in his NFL opportunities to drastically alter the grade on him from when he was drafted. Good backup with potential to develop into a starter. 3rd or 4th round grade ...... My view is that if someone offered me a 3rd for him I'd be tempted but in the end I would take the value of having a good young and cheap backup QB as being more valuable and pass. If it was ONLY Clayton then yeah, I wouldn't hold much to it. But some media members polled GMs back in December and they all said he was valued as a 2nd rounder. That aws before his 3 starts, but whether those had much of an impact, I guess we'll see. The point is, most people in the industry seem to think Cousins is worth a 2nd rounder. So ... naturally ... in a pretty weak QB class, with 5-6 teams desperate for a QB, it is not far fetched to think there could be a bit of a bidding war that results in us getting a 2nd. Some people on here are saying "lucky to get a 3rd" or "4th or 5th" and they are just stupid and uninformed. I think the Browns setting the floor at a 3rd rounder pretty much says it all. We'll get a 2nd for Kirk. Probably from Minnesota (40), Oakland (36) or Cleveland (35). Hell, the Texans might opt for Clowney at #1 and trade us 33 for Cousins. Not all that unlikely. Was listening to the local Buffalo Bills radio here yesterday morning and all 3 of the folks on there laughed at giving a 2nd for Cousins, and rattled off his large drop in statistics from Rookie to the 2013 Season. I agree with them, that most teams aren't stupid enough to give up that much for him. Each of them also agreed they'd not give a 3rd Round Pick for him either. One said he didn't want him at all, the other two said for a 4th or 5th they'd be happy with him coming to Buffalo. Not hugely important, but just a bit of info from what other teams fans/pundits are thinking about him. I'm guessing it is similar around the league. He got hyped up, based on a couple throws, and has since been quite mediocre. But in context ... it's Buffalo ... they just invested a 1st rounder in EJ Manuel ... why would they give up anything significant for Cousins? I can't blame their fans for saying that at all. Now if that was a discussion that Vikings or Browns fans were having, I'd at least give it some credence, but not Buffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewCliche21 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Cousins should be open to being traded. The team should be open to trading cousins. However, if you trade cousins, you open a hole at backup QB. So, then you've got to sign somebody or draft somebody. Signing a backup QB is going to cost more cap room than keeping Cousins. So, you have to weigh the options: A 2nd (at best) pick + less cap room overall and need at backup QB or Cousins 1 more year as a backup + more cap room and no headache to find another backup. Personally, I don't care. I think both are fine options. If they get a 1-15 pick in the second round, I think you do it no question. If it's late 2nd, you think about it. If it's anything less than a 2nd, you don't answer the phone. I think that what a LOT of people are forgetting is that Cousins has ZERO trade value next year. ZERO. He just won't re-sign, that's a given. So we fill a hole for this year at a back up QB position and then have the same hole with NO picks the following year? No thanks. One in the hand is worth two in the bush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Voice of Reason ... not trying to be a dick but you're the most recent person to bring this debate up so It's not just addressed to you but to everyone. Trading Cousins means we would have to sign a vet QB backup ... yes ... probably to the tune of $1.5 to $2 million. BUT ... trading Cousins for a 2nd rounder allows the team to draft a "starter" and pay them about $800k to $1m per year for 4-5 years. That is one position that the team won't have to go and spend $3-4 million per year on a starter. So any money "lost" by having to pay an extra $1m for a backup QB over what you pay Cousins is more than made up by drafting a 2nd rounder at that contract level. Even better ... if you can trade that 2nd for a later 2nd and 4th and 5th rounder ... you're talking about a starter and possibly two depth players for a combined $2 million per year for the next 4 years if they pan out. Plus this team has tons of cap space. A $1 million bump in pay for a backup QB should not be the reason we don't trade Cousins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Cousins should be open to being traded. The team should be open to trading cousins. However, if you trade cousins, you open a hole at backup QB. So, then you've got to sign somebody or draft somebody. Signing a backup QB is going to cost more cap room than keeping Cousins. So, you have to weigh the options: A 2nd (at best) pick + less cap room overall and need at backup QB or Cousins 1 more year as a backup + more cap room and no headache to find another backup. Personally, I don't care. I think both are fine options. If they get a 1-15 pick in the second round, I think you do it no question. If it's late 2nd, you think about it. If it's anything less than a 2nd, you don't answer the phone. Not sure where it is in this thread, but one of our member broke down the dollars and basically you can trade KC for a 2nd and the cost of the 2nd plus a backup QB, will only be about 1 million difference. But you get a good backup, plus a potential starter with the 2nd round pick. KC is paid about $600K this year. You can sign a Josh Johnson to back up RG3, plus the 2nd round salary, it will only be about 1-1.5 million more. We could potentially have 50 million in cap room if they make the moves everyone thinks they'll make, so paying Johnson isn't going to cripple our cap this year like it would have in the last 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Every time I see this thread title I chuckle and think "no ****". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 So apparently I wasn't clear in my original post, I am not advocating keeping Cousins, or trading him. I'm just pointing out that if you trade him, there are a few things you have to think about: who the backup QB is going to be, and the fact that at the backup QB position, you're going to be committing more money. That could be offset by getting a starter at a very good price in the second round, if you can find a guy there who can come in and start immediately. But the 'Skins have enough cap room they should be able to do anything they want. One of the best things that Shanahan/Allen did over the last 4 years is that they have a lot of flexibility. The only asset they don't have right now is the #1. But other than that, they have all of their draft picks, and they have a ton of cap space. Contrast that to Dallas and other teams, who are over the cap... Not sure where it is in this thread, but one of our member broke down the dollars and basically you can trade KC for a 2nd and the cost of the 2nd plus a backup QB, will only be about 1 million difference. But you get a good backup, plus a potential starter with the 2nd round pick. KC is paid about $600K this year. You can sign a Josh Johnson to back up RG3, plus the 2nd round salary, it will only be about 1-1.5 million more. We could potentially have 50 million in cap room if they make the moves everyone thinks they'll make, so paying Johnson isn't going to cripple our cap this year like it would have in the last 2 years. I agree with this. And as I said, you just have to weigh your options. And you have to figure which FA QB you're going to be able to sign, and for how much. Josh Johnson would be fine, but it's also possible that you get into a little bit of a bidding war with other teams looking for backup Voice of Reason ... not trying to be a dick but you're the most recent person to bring this debate up so It's not just addressed to you but to everyone. Trading Cousins means we would have to sign a vet QB backup ... yes ... probably to the tune of $1.5 to $2 million. BUT ... trading Cousins for a 2nd rounder allows the team to draft a "starter" and pay them about $800k to $1m per year for 4-5 years. That is one position that the team won't have to go and spend $3-4 million per year on a starter. So any money "lost" by having to pay an extra $1m for a backup QB over what you pay Cousins is more than made up by drafting a 2nd rounder at that contract level. Even better ... if you can trade that 2nd for a later 2nd and 4th and 5th rounder ... you're talking about a starter and possibly two depth players for a combined $2 million per year for the next 4 years if they pan out. Plus this team has tons of cap space. A $1 million bump in pay for a backup QB should not be the reason we don't trade Cousins. The one counter I would have to this is that trading a player for a draft pick, there is no guarantee that draft pick will pan out. The draft is a crap shoot. Second round picks sometimes flourish as starters, and sometimes don't. If you can get the right price for Cousins, I'm all for it. But, if you don't, I wouldn't move him for a chance at a good player. Because he's a capable backup, has experience, and is a known quantity. And if you get a 3rd or lower, you're going to get an unproven commodity that might/might not be able to help you. Just my thought... I think that what a LOT of people are forgetting is that Cousins has ZERO trade value next year. ZERO. He just won't re-sign, that's a given. So we fill a hole for this year at a back up QB position and then have the same hole with NO picks the following year? No thanks. One in the hand is worth two in the bush. I'm not sure that's true. If I remember correctly, Cousins has 2 years left on his deal. And I think (though I could be wrong), but there have been several "last year" backups who have been traded for reasonably high draft picks. I thought Kolb was in the last year of his deal, and so was Matt Flynn, if I remember correctly. I could be really wrong about that. I would have to go check... Now, if this is Cousins' last year, then yeah, he just doesn't re-sign at the end of the year and becomes an unrestricted FA. But I think he's got 2 years left, and I think that recent history shows that even backup QBs in the last year of their contract are valuable assets. That said, if you get the right price for him, I'd take it this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 I think that what a LOT of people are forgetting is that Cousins has ZERO trade value next year. ZERO. He just won't re-sign, that's a given. So we fill a hole for this year at a back up QB position and then have the same hole with NO picks the following year? No thanks. One in the hand is worth two in the bush. As a 4th round pick Cousins will have signed a 4 year rookie deal. He will not be a free agent for another 2 years and even then he will be a restricted free agent we could tender at a level he essentially stays for 3 more years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewCliche21 Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 As a 4th round pick Cousins will have signed a 4 year rookie deal. He will not be a free agent for another 2 years and even then he will be a restricted free agent we could tender at a level he essentially stays for 3 more years. Oh, then my math is off by a year? :doh: Better than it was in high school, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 As a 4th round pick Cousins will have signed a 4 year rookie deal. He will not be a free agent for another 2 years and even then he will be a restricted free agent we could tender at a level he essentially stays for 3 more years. I didn't realise that either, that's more reason for Kirk to want out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Some fans are delusional thinking we get a 2nd rounder. Don't even waste your time with elaborate write ups. If we got a 3rd rounder, we should be doing cartwheels. Yeah, this kind of talk is getting old. Casserly said he was worth more than a 2nd, Louis Riddick mentioned a 2nd. These are experienced NFL front office people. Clayton has his pulse on what GMs are thinking more than anybody and he said a 2nd, maybe more. Now, all that said, it's entirely possible he goes for less. I remain in wait and see mode. But let's stop insulting the intelligence of the posters whose opinions are backed by the experts, OK? As a 4th round pick Cousins will have signed a 4 year rookie deal. He will not be a free agent for another 2 years and even then he will be a restricted free agent we could tender at a level he essentially stays for 3 more years. That's wrong. He's an Unrestricted Free Agent in two years. He's free at that point unless he's tagged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket442Olds Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 But in context ... it's Buffalo ... they just invested a 1st rounder in EJ Manuel ... why would they give up anything significant for Cousins? I can't blame their fans for saying that at all. Now if that was a discussion that Vikings or Browns fans were having, I'd at least give it some credence, but not Buffalo True, but no one in Buffalo is sold on EJ, and are very concerned about his health. He missed over a third of the season, on 3 separate injuries and half of the preseason as well. I think just about anywhere you'll find the same discussion about Cousins, that he's not worth the 2nd, and most don't want to give up a 3rd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonez3 Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 I seriously doubt 'just about anywhere' people are saying he's not a 2. If anything, Cousins probably has the 'sexy pick' tag more than any potential rookie prospect or other availables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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