Election 16: Donald Trumps wins Presidency. God Help us all!

[twa]

22 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

Yup. Good luck to the exurban US communities if they want to give all of us in cities a middle finger. It's going to be bad news for them if and when liberals start coming around to the idea of federalism.

 

Next they will start embracing gun rights 

[TheGoodBits]

2 minutes ago, Elessar78 said:

This term "racist"...

It's easy to lump into just one, but I don't think it is. 

There's a casual: person casually uses slurs in regular talk, but would never deny a person a job or promotion because of it

systematic/subconscious: person may publicly be okay with other races, but subconsciously own't hire/promote person of certain ethnicities. 

fringe: KKK type racism

then fill in each degree in between. 

I mostly agree. 

I will add that I think the subconscious group is still going to be more drawn to someone like Trump that plays to those deeply held subconscious beliefs. Those are going to be a part of the large chunk of Trump voters that don't see themselves as racists. 

[Going Commando]

32 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I feel you, but if the rural areas are not here, then how do we eat?

I don't know that there is this sharp rural vs urban = conservative vs liberal dynamic.  I'm not sure rural is always conservative.  There is a lot of agriculture in blue states on the West Coast and in New England.

I'm not sure why the Midwest and South are a red monolith.  Something more is going on.

[AsburySkinsFan]

2 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Next they will start embracing gun rights 

It was the Right who said that the Dems were against gun rights. You've screamed that the Obama was "coming' fer yer gunz!" That was coming from the Right, you all scared that nonsense up. The Right fear machine drove up gun sales, the Right drove the fear and motivated fringe militia groups, the Right was the side constantly talking about open and armed revolution. The Right built what it is today, ya'll own it.

[No Excuses]

5 minutes ago, twa said:

Next they will start embracing gun rights 

You laugh now, but I know tons of liberals who just hit up their local gun stores in Northern Virginia.

I would too if where I lived wasn't so restrictive about guns.

Lol.

[bearrock]

5 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Next they will start embracing gun rights 

They don't do guns in coastal liberal towns. Why do the shooting when they can use robots?  You thought they're developing all that technology so cars can drive themselves?

[Bozo the kKklown]

9 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I don't know that there is this sharp rural vs urban = conservative vs liberal dynamic.  I'm not sure rural is always conservative.  There is a lot of agriculture in blue states on the West Coast and in New England.

I'm not sure why the Midwest and South are a red monolith.  Something more is going on.

Blue states are the whole. In those blue states, there are counties that are not. In California, the Central Valley is where most of our food is made. Those areas voted Trump.

In Maryland, the agricultural parts are east. Voted Trump, and are traditionally conservative.

 

Thats why there is a rural vs. city dynamic. New York City is not all of New York state.

[LD0506]

30 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I feel you, but if the rural areas are not here, then how do we eat?

Good point, let's look at that. The huge agricultural areas of this nation and the people therein are a goddam treasure, an awful lot of really hardworking decent folks. I know, I've been there, in my dissolute youth I hitchhiked across this nation and have been in every one of the lower 48. Farmers and farming run on a completely different "clock" than the rest of us do, every harvest is the seed for replanting, every field is the result of months of terrific labor, and their lives demand that they take a very different and longer/slower view of things. They know this, it is a component part of their existence. THEY decide not to grow and people starve, actual famine starving, and they stand between us and Malthus, and they know it. But they decide not to grow and you feel it next year, it would take a while for the pipeline to empty out.

The system breaks and nothing works, nothing, and right away. When the power goes out it goes out NOW! When the internet goes out it goes out NOW! When trucks stop restocking stores, when fuel stops being available, it happens way quicker than next years crops not coming in. If the machine stops working, none of the parts work, even if they are not themselves broken. It is the connections, the nervous system that allows all these parts to run together. What are those connections? Infrastructure, media, news, weather (don't think they don't watch that religiously in the Midwest!), power, transport, fuel, parts, etc etc. One hell of a lot of those wasteful government things that Trumpoids rail against benefit them directly and the most. Maybe people need a reminder just how much of what we take for granted ain't guaranteed. Gonna be a lotta junkies in the holler hurtin' when pills stop being made. Gonna be a lot of farmers stunned when there is no credit against crops for the coming season. Gonna be a lotta people in a lotta places shocked at just how interconnected we are.

If the cities decide to say FU back, they will hurt too, everyone will, but they will be heard immediately, their contributions will be missed immediately, the infrastructure will misfire immediately. IF the response is "Ok, then FU and we meant it!" we're ****ing doomed, game over. If it's something more along the lines of "Oh hell, we effed up, how do we fix this?" then THAT is communication! THAT becomes a moment where the talking actually begins.

Do I think we will have to go there to make that happen? ****, I have no idea, I hope not but kinda fear it is.

[tshile]

13 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

You laugh now, but I know tons of liberals who just hit up their local gun stores in Northern Virginia.

I would too if where I lived wasn't so restrictive about guns.

Lol.

Guess it's a good thing they didn't ban them
 

[LD0506]

31 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

When I say listen and understand, that means that also means rural white people, need to start being empathetic to minorities as well and start understanding and listening.

Amen brother, amen, from your lips to Gods ears, but tell me, exactly how do you have any kind of conversation with those that refuse to listen? How do you make rational points to someone having a screaming meltdown? How effective is it to try and reason with that petulant 8 yr old having a tantrum? We all know the answer, it isn't and you can't. The only time tested tactic is to let the tantrum run its course and then open communication, and attempts before that is not only effort wasted but actually feeds the tantrum, since attention is what its all about. A child screams that he hates you, thaqt you'll be sorry when he's gone, that his life is the worst one ever but do you take it at face value? Is he even speaking any truth in that? No, he's angry and frustrated and maybe just tired and needs a nap, but still wants you. And you want him too.

So, at some point we, WE as in we America, desperately need that conversation to begin. Where it might lead is impossible to see but without it, we are doomed. The basic realization and acknowledgement that we not only have to tolerate each other but genuinely need each other is lost. I can only hope that we find that before the underlying tools that make America possible are stolen, broken or destroyed altogether. We lose this now and the world may never get it back.

[twa]

39 minutes ago, SkinsHokieFan said:

 

If liberals really start to feel federalism you are going to have 40% of this country in trouble.

If suddenly places like Houston, San Fran, Fairfax, Chicago, Milwaukee, NYC really want to keep their money locally and no longer be willing tax exporters, trouble is just starting 

 

I'm curious where you think those places get their money?

ya left Detroit off,btw

[NoCalMike]

I know there are probably a fair share of Coastal liberals who make fun of middle America, but for the most part this sentiment that everyone spends their time making fun of people from other parts of the country just isn't true.  Everyone, regardless of where they live feels squeezed and is just trying to get by. I feel like the whole "flyover state" narrative has been created as a fake rallying cry for specific regions to latch onto and be angry about when there is little substance to it.  It makes for provocative discussion on cable news, but there just isn't nearly as much of it there as you'd think.

[TimmySmith]

33 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Trayvon Martin, you mean the unarmed kid who was shot dead by Zimmerman who got off on a murder charge because Florida is stupid? 

You cannot be serious. How in the heck did ANY of that endorse violence and rioting. Good god man! Trump has been blowing the racist dog whistle for years and you are saying that Obama is the same because of what again?

It's amazing to me that people lack so much discernment these days that they think that just because words are in the same font then that means they have the same weight. 

You are exhibiting every trait that led to Trump.  You are intolerant and will not listen to any other viewpoint outside your own.  Those who contradict you are stupid and uneducated.  Trump is racist (as are all Republicans), even though David Axelrod (you may know him) found himself defending Trump the other night, saying that Trump is many bad things, but racist is not one of them.  

Your side LOST.  And you lost because your leaders in the DNC refused to listen to you and shoved a horrible candidate down your throats AND YOUR SIDE DIDN'T VOTE FOR HER.  Even that is fault of the right in your opinion.  Your side is right, even when they're wrong.  Eat your crow, move on and don't let your side do it again.

 

[Burgold]

One of the bigger absurdities from the right that I'm hearing is that I'm responsible for their vote. I get the shame, but your vote/non vote is yours. 

Own it. 

[twa]

27 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

It was the Right who said that the Dems were against gun rights. You've screamed that the Obama was "coming' fer yer gunz!" That was coming from the Right, you all scared that nonsense up. The Right fear machine drove up gun sales, the Right drove the fear and motivated fringe militia groups, the Right was the side constantly talking about open and armed revolution. The Right built what it is today, ya'll own it.

 

They are doing it for your welfare ....chew on that one 

someone had to stimulate domestic manufacturing 

[LD0506]

NoCalMike makes a pertinent point, one hell of a lot of people living on the coasts were born and raised in "flyover country" (GOD I hate that term!). I was, as much as I'm kinda ashamed to admit it these days I was born n raised in Ohio and saw the rust start, experienced the hollowing out of jobs and options, and was in the end driven out of the comfortable familiar places I grew up in in order to survive. As were my siblings. As were most of the people I graduated HS with. As were millions and millions of others, starting at the bottom of the ladder in the 70s and beyond, only to watch all the rungs be stolen.

Expats

We're ****ing expats, driven out of our homes like Syrian refugees, only we had the comfort of driving away instead of fleeing gunfire on foot and in leaky scows.

Expats

Years and decades away from it all, yet still hearing the echoes, rooting for the old hometown teams. Checking on the winter weather. Clicking links to the hometown papers. Yes, that's a biggie, it is a constant painful reminder of exactly why this happened, why it had to happen, why if there ever was a choice it was never ours, a consolation prize for what we used to have that we have no more.

Expats, expats in our own land

But yeah, tell me again, I don't "get" it

[thebluefood]

9 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Next they will start embracing gun rights 

Depends on what you mean by liberals. Sure, there have been anti-gun strains for decades.

But if we're talking "liberals" in the sense of the left in general?

(Black Panthers in Olympia, Washington protesting Open Carry Ban, 1969)

(Striking Miner at Blair Mountain, 1921)

(Robert Charles Onco at Wounded Knee II, 1973)

Not so much.

[bcl05]

This is an interesting article about the rural/urban split.  Its a pretty fascinating problem, without an obvious answer...

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/11/rural_americans_just_chose_a_president_who_won_t_help_them.html

[TradeTheBeal!]

7 minutes ago, Burgold said:

One of the bigger absurdities from the right that I'm hearing is that I'm responsible for their vote. I get the shame, but your vote/non vote is yours. 

Own it. 

 

Yeah, it's pretty sad.  Shows a lot of immaturity and fear.

[twa]

6 minutes ago, thebluefood said:

Depends on what you mean by liberals. Sure, there have been anti-gun strains for decades.

But if we're talking "liberals" in the sense of the left in general?

(Black Panthers in Olympia, Washington protesting Open Carry Ban, 1969)

(Striking Miner at Blair Mountain, 1921)

(Robert Charles Onco at Wounded Knee II, 1973)

Not so much.

 

you mean the useful idiots to the liberals in charge? 

[PeterMP]

3 hours ago, Barney B said:

 

That's a good article, but it looks like you're mostly right.

The point of that article isn't so you can laugh at the White Working Class for voting against their economic interests, it's that, except for Trump, nobody is even talking about their problems, and Hillary seems downright dismissive of them.

It also explains how the WWC can vote for Obama one election and Trump in another. It wasn't about race, it was about change, and Obama's presidency didn't deliver. Never mind that he was stonewalled - he was stonewalled by Republicans, and the WWC didn't elect a "Republican", they elected Trump, partly to punish Republicans.

Let the working class start prospering again, and watch how much of their supposed racism evaporates.

This simply isn't true.  Hillary talked about middle out growth multiple times during the debates.  She said it so many times in one debate that people were making jokes about it.

Obama has done things to help Appalachia and asked for Congress pass bills to do more.  Congress didn't move.

Hillary proposed and even bigger package.  Those people have voted for people in Congress that didn't move on Obama's proposals.  They voted against Hillary's proposals that would have helped them.  And are voting for people that are claiming they can bring a pre-1990 economy back.

It isn't happening.  Its not happening for coal country, and it isn't happening for mid-west and rust belt manufacturing communities

And if the election was about change, they why didn't incumbents across the board lose?  This wasn't about change.  It was about fear (with respect to WWC).

**EDIT**

Seriously, if you don't think Hillary tried to reach out to WWC with respect to economics, what do you think she could have said/done differently?

The jobs they had are not coming back without massive decreases in their wages, the value of the dollar crashing, or the price of goods in the US going up significantly.  If that's your starting point, what do you say?

[Bozo the kKklown]

28 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

I know there are probably a fair share of Coastal liberals who make fun of middle America, but for the most part this sentiment that everyone spends their time making fun of people from other parts of the country just isn't true.  Everyone, regardless of where they live feels squeezed and is just trying to get by. I feel like the whole "flyover state" narrative has been created as a fake rallying cry for specific regions to latch onto and be angry about when there is little substance to it.  It makes for provocative discussion on cable news, but there just isn't nearly as much of it there as you'd think.

I think you're right, but instead of not engaging them we need to start. To show them that its not true.

 

30 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

Amen brother, amen, from your lips to Gods ears, but tell me, exactly how do you have any kind of conversation with those that refuse to listen? How do you make rational points to someone having a screaming meltdown? How effective is it to try and reason with that petulant 8 yr old having a tantrum? We all know the answer, it isn't and you can't. The only time tested tactic is to let the tantrum run its course and then open communication, and attempts before that is not only effort wasted but actually feeds the tantrum, since attention is what its all about. A child screams that he hates you, thaqt you'll be sorry when he's gone, that his life is the worst one ever but do you take it at face value? Is he even speaking any truth in that? No, he's angry and frustrated and maybe just tired and needs a nap, but still wants you. And you want him too.

So, at some point we, WE as in we America, desperately need that conversation to begin. Where it might lead is impossible to see but without it, we are doomed. The basic realization and acknowledgement that we not only have to tolerate each other but genuinely need each other is lost. I can only hope that we find that before the underlying tools that make America possible are stolen, broken or destroyed altogether. We lose this now and the world may never get it back.

All you can do is tell them that. Let them share their problems and then share yours.

[SkinsHokieFan]

The second black men start open carrying and exercising their 2A rights in red America, we'll see gun control laws quickly enacted.

I have often thought of starting "Muslim2A" as a 501c org to encourage more American born Muslims to exercise their 2A rights

When I contacted the NRA about this, they weren't really interested in helping 

[thebluefood]

14 minutes ago, twa said:

 

you mean the useful idiots to the liberals in charge? 

Just wanna make sure we're clear: you're referring to those pictured as the "useful idiots" to the liberals charge, yes?

[The Sisko]

58 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

My point is its time to start listening and understanding them. Not excuse their crazy views, but listen to them and understand them and have them understand us.

So when it's anyone else, the message is sack up and pull yourself up by your bootstraps, rugged individualism, let 'em die, etc. However when it's so-called real 'Muricuh we're supposed to get all weepy and sing kumbaya while subsidizing their lack of ability to sustain their own communities and avoid calling that socialism? Because this whole income transfer from the well off to the poor is one of the major core issues the right has been whining about. Sorry but I'm fresh out of ****s to give about their feelings or what they think. They clearly don't care about anyone else and I'm happy to return the favor.

15 minutes ago, tshile said:

Guess it's a good thing they didn't ban them
 

That was you guys' narrative, not ours and not what most of the country is asking for regarding gun control.